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Thread: Abolish the Federal Death Penalty

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    That is what the appeals process is for. To verify that the proof was absolute. Many people on death row were later found to have not committed the crime they were sentenced for- even after appeals.
    If they won on appeal then the "proof" against them wasn't absolute.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Lol, it must be comforting to live in your imaginary universe. Did that pill stick in your throat on the way down?
    "If they can't get a guilty verdict- fire them and try again until you get a guilty verdict!" And he claims to seek absolute proof before executing somebody.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If they won on appeal then the "proof" against them wasn't absolute.
    But you don't know until you go through the appeal process. And that process is what makes death penalty case so expensive- the need to be as certain as possible you have the right man (or woman). And even then the proof is rarely absolute. And mistakes can still happen.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 08-14-2019 at 08:55 PM.

  6. #34
    As an alternative, the federal government can simply do away with all suicide watches, and let the criminals kill themselves.

    Honestly, they cant even get the post office right.... I'd rather every criminal in prison be released, than kill even a single innocent person, and this government HAS killed innocent people. If folks are worried about cost, there are ways of making prison punishment again (MPPA - trademark pending)

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    But you don't know until you go through the appeal process. And that process is what makes death penalty case so expensive- the need to be as certain as possible you have the right man (or woman). And even then the proof is rarely absolute. And mistakes can still happen.
    If proof was absolute you would know.

    Thinking like yours is what has watered down the standard of proof required.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    "If they can't get a guilty verdict- fire them and try again until you get a guilty verdict!" And he claims to seek absolute proof before executing somebody.
    That is a total lie.

    I never called for a retrial of someone who won on appeal.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    I'm fine with a death penalty as long as the judge, prosecutor and accuser(s) are executed if the convicted end up being exonerated.
    Support Justin Amash for Congress
    Michigan Congressional District 3

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The death penalty is required for some crimes.

    The debate should be about the standard of proof required.

    I think the issue is why is the federal government inserting itself into states criminal jurisdiction and usurping their authority over such matters. I live in a state w/o the death penalty yet the feds imposed it in a murder case. If there were no federal govt, the states would still deal criminal matters. We don't need the feds involved in this and, imo, it's unconstitutional. Also, while oppose the death penalty, I don't lose any sleep over any dirt bag who gets it for a horrid crime. Hell, I think the injured parties (loved ones) should have the option of killing the perps, themselves. That goes for the crime of animal abuse, too. The state, being dispassionate, has no reason to kill anyone.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I think the issue is why is the federal government inserting itself into states criminal jurisdiction and usurping their authority over such matters. I live in a state w/o the death penalty yet the feds imposed it in a murder case. If there were no federal govt, the states would still deal criminal matters. We don't need the feds involved in this and, imo, it's unconstitutional. Also, while oppose the death penalty, I don't lose any sleep over any dirt bag who gets it for a horrid crime. Hell, I think the injured parties (loved ones) should have the option of killing the perps, themselves. That goes for the crime of animal abuse, too. The state, being dispassionate, has no reason to kill anyone.
    The feds shouldn't be involved in most criminal cases but there are a few legitimate reasons for a federal death penalty, treason being the biggest one.

    If the death penalty is used I see no reason to not allow the rape victim or the family of the murder victim etc. to "throw the switch" but for those who don't wish to there should be a state firing squad to carry out the sentence.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If they won on appeal then the "proof" against them wasn't absolute.
    Prosecutors are a crooked bunch of MFers so nothing they present can be considered solid proof. There are other means of determining that, such as video, cicumstantial evidence plus a defendant admitting to and giving details of the crime that are not made public (not false/coerced confessions).

    Jody Arias is a killer. Chris Watts is a killer. Dahmer was a killer and cannibal. There are many more like that. Quite a few have not been given the DP. The Manson freaks did it and reported with glee what they did. They got the DP but lucked out when the SCOTUs (temporarily) overturned the DP, applying to the period they were sentenced. Yes, there are a lot of Innocence Project types and that's a great argument against the DP. I still think that injured parties should be free to deliver street justice because they have a valid reason.

    I remember a case where a guy was convicted of sexually assaulting a child. When he was taken to court for sentencing, the child's mother shot him dead on the courthouse steps. I was rooting for her but she got charged and the idiot California jury convicted her and sent her to prison.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Prosecutors are a crooked bunch of MFers so nothing they present can be considered solid proof. There are other means of determining that, such as video, cicumstantial evidence plus a defendant admitting to and giving details of the crime that are not made public (not false/coerced confessions).

    Jody Arias is a killer. Chris Watts is a killer. Dahmer was a killer and cannibal. There are many more like that. Quite a few have not been given the DP. The Manson freaks did it and reported with glee what they did. They got the DP but lucked out when the SCOTUs (temporarily) overturned the DP, applying to the period they were sentenced. Yes, there are a lot of Innocence Project types and that's a great argument against the DP. I still think that injured parties should be free to deliver street justice because they have a valid reason.

    I remember a case where a guy was convicted of sexually assaulting a child. When he was taken to court for sentencing, the child's mother shot him dead on the courthouse steps. I was rooting for her but she got charged and the idiot California jury convicted her and sent her to prison.
    If the state doesn't make an air tight case then how can we allow citizens to kill because they believe the person was guilty?
    That's even more likely to produce wrongful deaths.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The feds shouldn't be involved in most criminal cases but there are a few legitimate reasons for a federal death penalty, treason being the biggest one.

    If the death penalty is used I see no reason to not allow the rape victim or the family of the murder victim etc. to "throw the switch" but for those who don't wish to there should be a state firing squad to carry out the sentence.
    I have to disagree because the state is not injured and has no emotional involvement. They should not be allowed to kill anyone. Their job, it seems to me, is to prtect the public which means removing the criminal from general society where they can do no more harm.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If the state doesn't make an air tight case then how can we allow citizens to kill because they believe the person was guilty?
    That's even more likely to produce wrongful deaths.
    I don't think so but if it does happen, then charge the killer with murder. Prosecutors frame people and withhold exculpatory evidence just to get convictions because WINNING, which all most care about. Not so for the loved ones of murder victims.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I have to disagree because the state is not injured and has no emotional involvement. They should not be allowed to kill anyone. Their job, it seems to me, is to prtect the public which means removing the criminal from general society where they can do no more harm.
    The state is charged with carrying out justice.
    Executions are justice and they remove the killer or rapist etc. from society.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I don't think so but if it does happen, then charge the killer with murder. Prosecutors frame people and withhold exculpatory evidence just to get convictions because WINNING, which all most care about. Not so for the loved ones of murder victims.
    The avenger would have to prove a case in order to get off, I would allow that but if you couldn't prove an iron clad case that the person you killed deserved it you would be guilty of murder.

    We can't have people running around killing people and then say we should just believe them because they were raped or their family member was killed.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The avenger would have to prove a case in order to get off, I would allow that but if you couldn't prove an iron clad case that the person you killed deserved it you would be guilty of murder.

    We can't have people running around killing people and then say we should just believe them because they were raped or their family member was killed.
    No, the prosecutors would have to prove the avenger guilty of killing an innocent person.

    Why can't we have injured parties killing those who killed their loved ones? The state(s) does it. The injured parties are the ones who have the gripe! Screw the sate. Frontier justice would be the only righteous revenge when it comes to a death penalty.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    No, the prosecutors would have to prove the avenger guilty of killing an innocent person.
    The dead man is presumed innocent until proven guilty by the killer.

    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    Why can't we have injured parties killing those who killed their loved ones? The state(s) does it. The injured parties are the ones who have the gripe! Screw the sate. Frontier justice would be the only righteous revenge when it comes to a death penalty.
    If they can prove the person they killed deserved it I'm perfectly happy to let any member of the public do the killing but if proof isn't required you are going to end up with people lying or just being mistaken right and left, then you will get blood feuds going between families.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Not everything Moses said came from GOD, Christ made that clear about divorce.
    GOD gave the command to kill murderers to Noah.




    Proof must be absolute and unquestionable.
    Uh oh, it's becoming clear now. SS is one of those Noahide Law Talmudist types, which has been adopted by the Mormons. There's a quiet yet large contingent of Trumpkins that support implementing strict Noahide Law over the world, as the basis of the legal system underpinning their "God's Kingdom" world government. Blaspheme their notion of God? Execution by decapitation. Kill someone? Execution by decapitation. Have sex outside of wedlock or cheat on spouse? Execution by decapitation. And so on and so on. Basically, off with your head if you don't follow their super strict religious laws.

    I'm reminded again of the Handmaid's Tale.

    SS is basically just a Zionist Talmud-following Jew under a different denominational name. Makes a lot of sense now. Thanks for the thread PAF. It clicked some pieces into place. This topic is well worth looking into to understand the real motivations of SS and people like him.



    http://stopnoahidelaw.blogspot.com/2...ration-of.html

    On June 10th, 2013, United Nations diplomats from several different nations, including Egypt and Israel, attended the "One People, One World" Conference which was hosted by The Institute of Noahide Code (INC), a UN-accredited NGO dedicated to spreading awareness of the Seven Noahide Laws. A summary of the conference was uploaded as a PDF to the United Nations website which you can view below. According to this UN summary of the conference, the attending delegates signed a "Declaration of the Seven Laws of Noah," which emphasized the importance of the Seven Noahide Laws in maintaining peace, justice, and harmony among peoples and nations. The conference organizer, Rabbi Cohen, emphasized the need for "monotheism" in order to unite the world under "the one true G-d" and reiterated the Noahide Law prohibitions against "idolatry", "blasphemy" and "forbidden sexual relations." The UN document states the Noahide Laws are laws "which all peoples of the world are obligated to follow." The document also mentions the "Lubavitcher Rebbe", presumably Rabbi Schneerson who said that non-Jews exist only for the sake of Jews. Since 2013, the UN has hosted several other INC conferences. (Videos Below) Why would the United Nations sign a "Declaration of the Seven Laws of Noah," which are Jewish supremacist laws from the Babylonian Talmud and command non-Jews to set up courts which are at least theoretically supposed to execute non-Jews who do not follow Jewish strictures? Why would the UN document state that the Noahide Laws are laws "which all peoples of the world are obligated to follow." Does the UN really believe that Noahide Laws are mandatory for all nations and that we must all submit to the "one true G-d" of the Jewish Talmud?
    Last edited by devil21; 08-14-2019 at 11:09 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Uh oh, it's becoming clear now. SS is one of those Noahide Law Talmudist types, which has been adopted by the Mormons. There's a quiet yet large contingent of Trumpkins that support implementing strict Noahide Law over the world, as the basis of the legal system underpinning their "God's Kingdom" world government. Blaspheme their notion of God? Execution by decapitation. Kill someone? Execution by decapitation. Have sex outside of wedlock or cheat on spouse? Execution by decapitation. And so on and so on. Basically, off with your head if you don't follow their super strict religious laws.

    I'm reminded again of the Handmaid's Tale.
    LOL

    You are deranged.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    You are deranged.
    If you really believe in Jesus as you claim, I suggest you ditch Mormonism asap and start following Christianity. The Noahide "God's Kingdom" considers belief in Jesus to be blasphemy and punishable by death.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    If you really believe in Jesus as you claim, I suggest you ditch Mormonism asap and start following Christianity. The Noahide "God's Kingdom" considers belief in Jesus to be blasphemy and punishable by death.
    LOL

    You have jumped the shark.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL

    You have jumped the shark.
    You really should take some time to research these things instead of dismissing it. You're being taught a false doctrine.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    You really should take some time to research these things instead of dismissing it. You're being taught a false doctrine.
    And you are just making nonsense up.

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And you are just making nonsense up.

    Ok, well, carry on then.

    For anyone interested in what the globalist agenda and Agenda 21 2030 is really about, research the Noahide Laws, even down to the agenda to push people toward vegetarian/veganism. Eating meat is one of the offenses punishable by death.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Ok, well, carry on then.

    For anyone interested in what the globalist agenda and Agenda 21 2030 is really about, research the Noahide Laws, even down to the agenda to push people toward vegetarian/veganism. Eating meat is one of the offenses punishable by death.
    I'm sure you are right.
    But that has nothing to do with the command to kill murderers or Mormon doctrine.

    Go ahead and keep making a fool of yourself though.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    Ok, well, carry on then.

    For anyone interested in what the globalist agenda and Agenda 21 2030 is really about, research the Noahide Laws, even down to the agenda to push people toward vegetarian/veganism. Eating meat is one of the offenses punishable by death.
    And Noah was told specifically that animals would be food for him so whoever made up that nonsense wasn't reading what GOD commanded Noah.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm sure you are right.
    But that has nothing to do with the command to kill murderers or Mormon doctrine.

    Go ahead and keep making a fool of yourself though.
    Cuz' your version of a world united under "God's Kingdom", based on noted cabalist and Freemason Joseph Smith's concocted religion, is totally different than the world united under "God's Kingdom" based on cabalist Talmud and Talmud-for-the-gentiles Freemasonry.

    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Proof is what the prosecution brings to the trial [...]
    No it isn't. Evidence is what the prosecution brings to trial. Evidence is not proof.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    [...] they either have absolute proof or they don't.
    Then they don't - because there can never be any such thing as "absolute proof" in any empirical matter.

    Even the most seemingly damning of evidence, such as confessions, audio/video recordings, eyewitness testimony, etc., can be coerced, tampered with, tainted, or simply wrong.

    It is for this very reason that the relevant standard is referred to as "beyond a reasonable doubt" relative to the available empirical evidence and under the assumption that that evidence is accurate.

    The fact that the aforementioned assumption can be unwarranted (as numerous actual, historical cases amply demonstrate) gives the lie to the notion of "absolute proof" as a viable standard (rather than a reassuringly confident but ultimately empty platitude).

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If they don't [have "absolute proof"] they should be replaced if they try for the death penalty and cost the taxpayers money for appeals.
    But why should it matter if they try for the death penalty under such circumstances - unless it is possible that they might succeed despite the fact that they do not have "absolute proof?"

    After all, if they cannot succeed (because their "proof" is not "absolute"), then their attempt at the death penalty is pointlessly futile - and any "cost [to] the taxpayers [...] for appeals" is entirely warranted (because, as you assure us in post #28, "there would be appeals if the proof wasn't absolute.")

    But if they can succeed (despite that their "proof" is not "absolute"), then it must ipso facto be the case that the death penalty can be applied absent "absolute proof."
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 08-15-2019 at 03:19 AM.
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    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
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  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    No it isn't. Evidence is what the prosecution brings to trial. Evidence is not proof.



    They don't. There can never be any such thing as "absolute proof" in any empirical matter.

    Even the most seemingly damning of evidence, such as confessions, audio/video recordings, eyewitness testimony, etc., can be coerced, tampered with, tainted, or simply wrong.

    It is for this very reason that the relevant standard is referred to as "beyond a reasonable doubt" relative to the empirical evidence and under the assumption that the evidence is accurate.

    The fact that the aforementioned assumption can be unwarranted (as any number of actual, historical cases amply demonstrate) gives the lie to the notion of "absolute proof" as a viable standard (rather than a reassuring but empty platitude).



    But why should it matter if they try for the death penalty under such circumstances, unless it is possible that they might succeed despite the fact that they do not have "absolute proof?"

    After all, if they cannot succeed (because their "proof" is not "absolute"), then their attempt at the death penalty is pointlessly futile, and any "cost [to] the taxpayers [...] for appeals" is entirely warranted. (As you assure us in post #28, "there would be appeals if the proof wasn't absolute.")

    But if they can succeed despite that their "proof" is not "absolute", then it must ipso facto be the case that the death penalty can be applied absent "absolute proof."
    Hush you, how dare you spoil that narrative with logic?
    "The Patriarch"

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by susano View Post
    I think the issue is why is the federal government inserting itself into states criminal jurisdiction and usurping their authority over such matters. I live in a state w/o the death penalty yet the feds imposed it in a murder case. If there were no federal govt, the states would still deal criminal matters. We don't need the feds involved in this and, imo, it's unconstitutional. Also, while oppose the death penalty, I don't lose any sleep over any dirt bag who gets it for a horrid crime. Hell, I think the injured parties (loved ones) should have the option of killing the perps, themselves. That goes for the crime of animal abuse, too. The state, being dispassionate, has no reason to kill anyone.
    Death sentence is excessive imv, there are too many mistakes and frame ups, I think that only when
    In a capital case the defendant clearly pleads guilty (not as a negotiation tool) , it would be perhaps acceptable.
    The Federal Govt belongs outside of state affairs.

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