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Thread: Polish team re-creates Milgram experiment with similar depressing results

  1. #1

    Exclamation Polish team re-creates Milgram experiment with similar depressing results

    When it comes to anything else, ethics, morality, sexual perversions, "moderns" are so very quick to toss aside conventional norms.

    Except this.



    Conducting the Milgram Experiment in Poland, Psychologists Show People Still Obey

    http://www.spsp.org/news-center/pres...am-poland-obey

    Wednesday, March 15, 2017

    A replication of one of the most widely known obedience studies, the Stanley Milgram experiment, shows that even today, people are still willing to harm others in pursuit of obeying authority.

    The title is direct, “Would you deliver an electric shock in 2015?” and the answer, according to the results of this replication study, is yes. Social psychologists from SWPS University of Social Sciences and Humanities in Poland replicated a modern version of the Milgram experiment and found results similar to studies conducted 50 years earlier.

    “Our objective was to examine how high a level of obedience we would encounter among residents of Poland,” write the authors. “It should be emphasized that tests in the Milgram paradigm have never been conducted in Central Europe. The unique history of the countries in the region made the issue of obedience towards authority seem exceptionally interesting to us.”

    For those unfamiliar with the Milgram experiment, it tested people’s willingness to deliverer electric shocks to another person when encouraged by an experimenter. While no shocks were actually delivered in any of the experiments, the participants believed them to be real. The Milgram experiments demonstrated that under certain conditions of pressure from authority, people are willing to carry out commands even when it may harm someone else.

    “Upon learning about Milgram's experiments, a vast majority of people claim that ‘I would never behave in such a manner,’ says Tomasz Grzyb, a social psychologist involved in the research. “Our study has, yet again, illustrated the tremendous power of the situation the subjects are confronted with and how easily they can agree to things which they find unpleasant.”

    While ethical considerations prevented a full replication of the experiments, researchers created a similar set-up with lower “shock” levels to test the level of obedience of participants.

    The researchers recruited 80 participants (40 men and 40 women), with an age range from 18 to 69, for the study. Participants had up to 10 buttons to press, each a higher “shock” level. The results show that the level of participants’ obedience towards instructions is similarly high to that of the original Milgram studies.

    They found that 90% of the people were willing to go to the highest level in the experiment. In terms of differences between peoples willingness to deliver shock to a man versus a woman, “It is worth remarking,” write the authors, “that although the number of people refusing to carry out the commands of the experimenter was three times greater when the student [the person receiving the "shock"] was a woman, the small sample size does not allow us to draw strong conclusions.”

    In terms of how society has changed, Grzyb notes, “half a century after Milgram's original research into obedience to authority, a striking majority of subjects are still willing to 'electrocute' a helpless individual.”
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11



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  3. #2
    I read this earlier. Humans suck.
    "The Patriarch"

  4. #3

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I read this earlier. Humans suck.
    Well, at least the ones we elect are not as bad.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I read this earlier. Humans suck.
    The state would not exist if people chose compassion over obedience. It's in the DNA.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  7. #6
    And this goes here ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NcLNoxiPBk


    We've all heard of the "chain of command." Usually, people think of the term in the context of military, corporate and government power structures. But in reality, all of modern society is implicated. The "chain of command" sounds powerful - and it imbues the officers, the bureaucrats and the petty dictators of the world with a sense of importance and rank. The term is deceptive and behind it is an open secret hiding in plain sight.

    Power does not flow from the person who administers orders. Command is inconsequential if it's ignored - or laughed at. Obedience is the real foundation for misplaced power. It is, in fact, the "chain of obedience," not the "chain of command" - the cumulative force of cowardly and compliant citzenry - which allows evil men to take control.

    Can you imagine how Napoleon Bonaparte would be treated today if he arrived in Times Square in New York and attempted to order a man put to death? Chances are, he would probably end up heavily medicated in a padded room by the end of the day, but for a few minutes, people would probably have a good laugh. Rightly so. Separated from those who have been trained to obey them, even the most bloody heads of state are hardly more dangerous than a pick-pocket or a mugger.

    It may be true that we have a demented pack of inbred maniacs running the world right now. But they aren't the ones that I fear. I fear the conditioned masses, which would put me to death at the drop of a hat if the right order is given. I fear the herd of well-meaning idiots which believe that written law and authority is to be followed at all cost - even at the expense of self-evident morality. The death squads and the concentration camps of history were never staffed by rebels and dissidents. They were run by those who followed the rules.

    The problem isn't the "chain of command" - the problem is the "chain of obedience."
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 04-03-2017 at 07:45 PM. Reason: added transcription
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    When it comes to anything else, ethics, morality, sexual perversions, "moderns" are so very quick to toss aside conventional norms.

    Except this.



    Conducting the Milgram Experiment in Poland, Psychologists Show People Still Obey

    http://www.spsp.org/news-center/pres...am-poland-obey

    Wednesday, March 15, 2017

    A replication of one of the most widely known obedience studies, the Stanley Milgram experiment, shows that even today, people are still willing to harm others in pursuit of obeying authority.

    The title is direct, “Would you deliver an electric shock in 2015?” and the answer, according to the results of this replication study, is yes. Social psychologists from SWPS University of Social Sciences and Humanities in Poland replicated a modern version of the Milgram experiment and found results similar to studies conducted 50 years earlier.

    “Our objective was to examine how high a level of obedience we would encounter among residents of Poland,” write the authors. “It should be emphasized that tests in the Milgram paradigm have never been conducted in Central Europe. The unique history of the countries in the region made the issue of obedience towards authority seem exceptionally interesting to us.”

    For those unfamiliar with the Milgram experiment, it tested people’s willingness to deliverer electric shocks to another person when encouraged by an experimenter. While no shocks were actually delivered in any of the experiments, the participants believed them to be real. The Milgram experiments demonstrated that under certain conditions of pressure from authority, people are willing to carry out commands even when it may harm someone else.

    “Upon learning about Milgram's experiments, a vast majority of people claim that ‘I would never behave in such a manner,’ says Tomasz Grzyb, a social psychologist involved in the research. “Our study has, yet again, illustrated the tremendous power of the situation the subjects are confronted with and how easily they can agree to things which they find unpleasant.”

    While ethical considerations prevented a full replication of the experiments, researchers created a similar set-up with lower “shock” levels to test the level of obedience of participants.

    The researchers recruited 80 participants (40 men and 40 women), with an age range from 18 to 69, for the study. Participants had up to 10 buttons to press, each a higher “shock” level. The results show that the level of participants’ obedience towards instructions is similarly high to that of the original Milgram studies.

    They found that 90% of the people were willing to go to the highest level in the experiment. In terms of differences between peoples willingness to deliver shock to a man versus a woman, “It is worth remarking,” write the authors, “that although the number of people refusing to carry out the commands of the experimenter was three times greater when the student [the person receiving the "shock"] was a woman, the small sample size does not allow us to draw strong conclusions.”

    In terms of how society has changed, Grzyb notes, “half a century after Milgram's original research into obedience to authority, a striking majority of subjects are still willing to 'electrocute' a helpless individual.”
    I have taught on the subjects of both the Milgrim (Power of Authority Figures) and the Stanford Prision (Power of Role Play) Experiments in my Human Nature Class.

    Truthfully, when initially viewed, these are experiments that reveal the evil/selfish nature of mankind. Many people walk away from these videos as pessimists, in the process, losing faith in humanity.

    I look at things differently.

    I see human beings as trusting, imaginative and good-willed (unlike Hobbes, I see people as smart enough to inherently know right from wrong). Only when abused by sociopaths (whether the sociopath is themselves, their neighbor, or the State) do humans produce misery and destruction.

    Anytime you watch the Migrim Experiment, or anything like it, you realize that most of the participates are under tremendous stress. This stress is a signal that these individuals internally realize that they are doing something fundamentally wrong. They intrinsically know that they would not like to be electrocuted so it becomes difficult for them to continue when they place themselves in their victims shoes.

    What we are witnessing in the Milgrim Expeirment is weakness. Our society is, intentionally or unintentionally, producing weak, depressed people who accept authority because they have no pride in themselves or their future. These people are uneducated, no doubt, but this is not an indictment of their human nature. They are mearly used and abused sheep that don't know any better and think they are doing the right thing.

    I've never seen a war, insurrection, or massacre where anyone, going in to the battle, thought they were the bad guys. The danger of propaganda/fakenews is lethal. The Migrim Experiment - Poland Edition is just one more example.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    I see human beings as trusting, imaginative and good-willed (unlike Hobbes, I see people as smart enough to inherently know right from wrong). Only when abused by sociopaths (whether the sociopath is themselves, their neighbor, or the State) do humans produce misery and destruction.
    You could say only when they breathe.


    Anytime you watch the Migrim Experiment, or anything like it, you realize that most of the participates are under tremendous stress. This stress is a signal that these individuals internally realize that they are doing something fundamentally wrong. They intrinsically know that they would not like to be electrocuted so it becomes difficult for them to continue when they place themselves in their victims shoes.

    What we are witnessing in the Milgrim Expeirment is weakness. Our society is, intentionally or unintentionally, producing weak, depressed people who accept authority because they have no pride in themselves or their future. These people are uneducated, no doubt, but this is not an indictment of their human nature. They are mearly used and abused sheep that don't know any better and think they are doing the right thing.
    This definitely makes me feel better about my fellow humans. They are not evil, they are just stupid. What difference does it make?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    You could say only when they breathe.




    This definitely makes me feel better about my fellow humans. They are not evil, they are just stupid. What difference does it make?
    I'd take stupid over evil any day.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  12. #10
    Evil? the 'social experiments' in Soviet Union, China, and now europe

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I read this earlier. Humans suck.
    PANG theory in practice. governments tend to subscribe to this and teach this fallacy.
    Seattle Sounders 2016 MLS Cup Champions 2019 MLS Cup Champions 2022 CONCACAF Champions League - and the [un]official football club of RPF

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  14. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    I'd take stupid over evil any day.
    ...you have it in spades, republicrat!... ...[albeit not an evil republicrat]

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I read this earlier. Humans suck.
    authoritarians suck
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
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  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    I'd take stupid over evil any day.
    I rely on them being both.

    operational parameters being what they are
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    What we are witnessing in the Milgrim Expeirment is weakness. Our society is, intentionally or unintentionally, producing weak, depressed people who accept authority because they have no pride in themselves or their future. These people are uneducated, no doubt, but this is not an indictment of their human nature. They are mearly used and abused sheep that don't know any better and think they are doing the right thing.
    Agreed, they weren't evil.

    They were just following orders.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

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  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    I have taught on the subjects of both the Milgrim (Power of Authority Figures) and the Stanford Prision (Power of Role Play) Experiments in my Human Nature Class.

    Truthfully, when initially viewed, these are experiments that reveal the evil/selfish nature of mankind. Many people walk away from these videos as pessimists, in the process, losing faith in humanity.

    I look at things differently.

    I see human beings as trusting, imaginative and good-willed (unlike Hobbes, I see people as smart enough to inherently know right from wrong). Only when abused by sociopaths (whether the sociopath is themselves, their neighbor, or the State) do humans produce misery and destruction.

    Anytime you watch the Migrim Experiment, or anything like it, you realize that most of the participates are under tremendous stress. This stress is a signal that these individuals internally realize that they are doing something fundamentally wrong. They intrinsically know that they would not like to be electrocuted so it becomes difficult for them to continue when they place themselves in their victims shoes.

    What we are witnessing in the Milgrim Expeirment is weakness. Our society is, intentionally or unintentionally, producing weak, depressed people who accept authority because they have no pride in themselves or their future. These people are uneducated, no doubt, but this is not an indictment of their human nature. They are mearly used and abused sheep that don't know any better and think they are doing the right thing.

    I've never seen a war, insurrection, or massacre where anyone, going in to the battle, thought they were the bad guys. The danger of propaganda/fakenews is lethal. The Migrim Experiment - Poland Edition is just one more example.
    Since people have always behaved this way, it can't just be our society, can it?



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    I read this earlier. Humans suck.
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    authoritarians suck
    People who willingly obey authoritarians suck even more.

    Without them, the authoritarians wouldn't have any power.

    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces." -- Étienne de La Boétie, Discourse on Voluntary Servitude

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    People who willingly obey authoritarians suck even more.

    Without them, the authoritarians wouldn't have any power.

    "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces." -- Étienne de La Boétie, Discourse on Voluntary Servitude
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Occam's Banana again.
    "The Patriarch"

  22. #19
    “Our study has, yet again, illustrated the tremendous power of the situation the subjects are confronted with and how easily they can agree to things which they find unpleasant.”
    And now we have an experiment which confirms The Massie Zombie Hypothesis.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
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    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Since people have always behaved this way, it can't just be our society, can it?
    Any society dominated by the state will destroy any/all resistance to the state's rule, both genetically and culturally, in order to weaken the people and solidify state dominance. The state promotes itself as the only true and rightful "Alpha" in society. Any free man who attempts to resist this is swiftly destroyed. The state repeats this process until they have a monopoly on authority and all checks and balances are abolished. The entire society becomes a totalitarian pyramid (hence the dollar bill) until it commits suicide or is conquered.

    This is as opposed of a (classically) liberal society which encourages individuals to be their own Alphas. By claiming their rightful authority, free men create their own (voluntary) pyramids on a local level. By making free men independent alphas, they naturally become a threat to the state and any Caesar, Napoleon or Hitler (Trump?) trying to take power. This is the reason Baron Von Steuben was so upset with the American Patriots during the Revolutionary War. How dare these commoners have the audacity to question my orders, what rabble!

    I call them free.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    Any society dominated by the state will destroy any/all resistance to the state's rule, both genetically and culturally, in order to weaken the people and solidify state dominance...
    And how did the state emerge in the first place?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And how did the state emerge in the first place?
    When: During the Agrucultural Revolution with the advent of "farmers". A group of people easy to find and susceptible to extortion (taxes).

    Why: Some nefarious individuals realized that those who control the food (resources) control the masses.

    How: Technology and intellectual capital developed by some was used to subjugate others.
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson

    "It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds" - Sam Adams

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    When: During the Agrucultural Revolution with the advent of "farmers". A group of people easy to find and susceptible to extortion (taxes).

    Why: Some nefarious individuals realized that those who control the food (resources) control the masses.

    How: Technology and intellectual capital developed by some was used to subjugate others.
    Or in some places the farmers banded together to provide for the common defense, sadly these states were usually conquered or infiltrated, but they held off what you described longer than anarchy/monarchy could.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    When: During the Agrucultural Revolution with the advent of "farmers". A group of people easy to find and susceptible to extortion (taxes).

    Why: Some nefarious individuals realized that those who control the food (resources) control the masses.

    How: Technology and intellectual capital developed by some was used to subjugate others.
    Were the people initially subjugated by the first states already "weak, depressed people who accept authority"?

    If so, how did they get that way (i.e. it can't be that the state made them that way)?



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Were the people initially subjugated by the first states already "weak, depressed people who accept authority"?

    If so, how did they get that way (i.e. it can't be that the state made them that way)?
    Probably not, it is more likely that the conquerors beat them down until Stockholm Syndrome was achieved.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Probably not, it is more likely that the conquerors beat them down until Stockholm Syndrome was achieved.
    It follows, then, that the state doesn't require a "weak, depressed...etc" population to exist, correct?

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Were the people initially subjugated by the first states already "weak, depressed people who accept authority"?

    If so, how did they get that way (i.e. it can't be that the state made them that way)?
    Why can't it? I just explained that the subjugated had less technology or skills (intellectual capital) than the state. Once subjugated, only the beta followers (whether genetic or culturally enforced) were allowed to survive/thrive. People like all animals are highly adaptable.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It follows, then, that the state doesn't require a "weak, depressed...etc" population to exist, correct?
    The more weak and depressed the stronger the state becomes.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    It follows, then, that the state doesn't require a "weak, depressed...etc" population to exist, correct?
    No it does not. But bad states (most states) seek to create one.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    Why can't it?
    You're asking me why can't the state have made people "weak, depressed...etc" before the state existed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    No it does not.
    We just established that the first states emerged before people became "weak, depressed...etc"

    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    The more weak and depressed the stronger the state becomes.
    Sounds reasonable

    But my interest is in the conditions for the emergence of the state.

    ...or, say, the reemergence, from within an anarcho-capitalist society.

    Evidently, it is not required that the people be "weak, depressed...etc" The state can emerge even if they're not.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 04-04-2017 at 06:58 PM.

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