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Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Immigrants bad. Will everybody who either is an immigrant themselves or descended from an immigrant please leave.
I think @oyarde might agree with you.
But that is not what anyone has said here. Unrestricted Immigration is destructive. Controlled Immigration is positive if it is controlled properly.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
You first Juan.
I am native, I was born here as were the last 7 generations of my family. This our Nation, it belongs to us, not the rest of the world, and not to fools who would piss it way to alien hordes. Do not like it? LEAVE.
I know its upsetting your lies are not being believed but that is your fault, you told lies that were to grand to be believed, you went to war with reaility and you lost, as if their was any outcome other then that.
It is everybody's Nation. It was created by immigrants and built by immigrants. My ancestors have been in the US at least as long as the Revolutionary war. We nearly all descend from immigrants. If immigrants are bad, we should all leave. Without immigration, almost none of us would be here and instead living in socialist Europe. If you do not like it here, you are certainly free to live someplace else.
Sometimes you have to wonder what the real agenda is of dirty , fake libertarians wanting all these dirty immigrants . They can pretend they want a free society where people can travel as they wish but they are not fooling me . What they really want is more tax money collected and being blown to support deadbeats . There will be no trespassers here .
Do something Danke
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Illegals having already broken 1 law are quite happy to break more, and Liberal government workers are quite happy to break the law and help them cheat.
And those anchor babies are not the head of the household, their parents get the money and spend it how they wish, in point of fact that is one reason they have the children, to get more welfare.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
I'll have to go ahead and deny it.
The average resident of the average backwoods small town in the heartland talks more pro-liberty (slightly, sometimes)...
...and then votes for Bush/Bush/McCain/Romney/Trump.
I'm not willing to condone an even larger police state, violating the rights of millions, in order to ensure we get more politicians like that.
I'm saying that the number of immigrants entering the country has no effect on the odds of things being fixed.
Relative the native population, far more immigrants arrived in the period I mentioned than have been arriving in recent decades.
Yet, none of the horrors you claim follow mass immigration occurred...
Instead, the US became the richest and powerful country in the history of the world...
That's beside the point. The important struggle is not between SJWs and the alt-right.
It's between libertarians and statists (which of course includes both SJWs and the alt-right).
The reason that the alt-right is a special threat at the moment is that it's subverting libertarianism.
Libertarians are taking sides statist civil war that they will lose, whoever wins, when they should be fighting against both sides.
It does when the rest of the world is now more communist than we are.
The culture dramatically changed and not for the better, and you ignored the fact that the rest of the world has gotten even worse politically since, choosing to only discuss the relative levels of immigration.
And just so you know I believe that some controlled immigration can still be positive.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
@Swordsmyth
What do you think determines how communistic a state is?
...to save a step, if the answer is "what the people think," I ask: what determines what the people think?
Lol, who do you think elected Ron Paul in Texas? Who elected Rand Paul in Kentucky. Name one of our liberty champions who was put in there with majority immigrant support, Walter Jones, Massie? Name somebody.
You know there is no way in hell they would have won in saturated immigrant districts. Because all those districts elect people like Sheila Jackson Lee and Nancy Pelosi. We might have almost no hope now but we will have none if it all goes the way of the way of Mexico.
As much as I despise the NeoCons you mentioned, I will not support immigration policies that are guaranteed to turn this country into a Democrat paradise where we would have had 2 terms of Gore followed by 2 terms of Obama followed by 2 terms of Hillary, with no liberty movement taking place at all.
Open borders is a suicidal policy for liberty lovers if you allow the kinds of immigrants we get to have any political influence. coming here to work is one thing, screwing us out of our liberty is another. We shouldn't put up with it.
Yes, as opposed to zero. And states that are passing constitutional carry and such instead of gun bans and mandatory vaccines and $#@! like that the people the immigrants in California elected are supporting.
There is not a single political upside to massive immigration at this point. Not one.
What's the political downside to promoting nativism in the GOP?
...
Even assuming that hispanics are inherently anti-liberty (they aren't), and we could never win them over (we could), I'll gladly trade a theoretical loss of one of our half dozen seats to demographic change in twenty years over 20 more years of Trumpism (which is the main obstacle to libertarianism right now). Let me put it another way: if the GOP spends the next 20 years fighting against immigration, whatever tiny, infinitesimal spark of libertarian sentiment it has will be long dead, and that fight will have been utterly pointless.
Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 06-09-2017 at 11:29 PM.
What makes it so is irrelevant and complex, the fact is that everywhere else in the world believes that government is the answer to every problem.
The lip service that liberty gets in this country requires the government to give us token measures of freedom, these and the lip service can be built upon to improve things.
Flooding us with those who openly oppose liberty will only make things worse, since perfect is presently beyond our grasp, I will take better rather than worse.
The same goes for mixed bag Dump vs. Hitlery, Romney, Obummer, etc.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
So, you use a picture of Donald Trump here, and mentioned how the heartland has voted a few posts above this to imply that most Republicans are anti-liberty, but you won't admit that immigrants are?
So your strategy is to destroy the GOP as a vehicle to elect liberty candidates, by inviting millions of communists into this country who you will magically convert to libertarianism in large enough numbers to make up for it. I have no problem with that if it would work but it simply won't.I'll gladly trade a theoretical loss of one of our half dozen seats to demographic change in twenty years over 20 more years of Trumpism (which is the main obstacle to libertarianism right now).
You have not showed a political upside to more immigrants. You have used the enemy of my enemy is my friend argument. But they are not your friend, they are Hillary Clinton's friend as any quick look at electoral results by demographic will show you. With enough money a liberty candidate can get elected in a Republican district. With all the money in a world a liberty candidate can't get elected in a heavily immigrant Democratic district.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Of course immigrants are anti-liberty (never said otherwise), but so obviously are the natives.
What will destroy (has destroyed?) the GOP as a vehicle for electing liberty candidates (not that it was ever a good one) is the rise of nativism. The only hope is that this particular nativist interloper is so incompetent that he might sink his own movement, but if you fellows have your way, and that movement grows, libertarians might as well run independent in future elections. You're trying to win the general by losing the primary. Imagine where we'd be right now if Ron had been focused on ensuring that the GOP remain competitive against the Dems in the future, rather than fighting for a space within the GOP in the present.So your strategy is to destroy the GOP as a vehicle to elect liberty candidates, by inviting millions of communists into this country who you will magically convert to libertarianism in large enough numbers to make up for it. I have no problem with that if it would work but it simply won't.
Again, the point is that their presence/absence has no effect on political outcomes, since they vote the same as natives.You have not showed a political upside to more immigrants.
However, the promotion of nativist politics, does have an effect on political outcomes, as explained.
A quick look at election results will show you that ~99% of voters voterd for Hillary/Trump and are therefore all of our enemies.But they are not your friend, they are Hillary Clinton's friend as any quick look at electoral results by demographic will show you.
With enough money anyone can win anywhere, but in reality, the odds of a liberty candidate winning anywhere is very, very small.With enough money a liberty candidate can get elected in a Republican district. With all the money in a world a liberty candidate can't get elected in a heavily immigrant Democratic district.
The odds of them winning in a GOP district drop as nativism (a competing ideology) gets stronger.
Not to the same degree
Not all Liberty candidates are open borders nuts.
They vote worse, and the degree to which they do so rises with the percentage of un-assimilated immigrants.
Controlled Immigration is not the exclusive property of Nativists, anymore than freedom is the exclusive property of Anarchists.
Some of them are merely misguided, the immigrants are hostile to liberty.
Not true
Controlled Immigration is not the exclusive property of Nativists, anymore than freedom is the exclusive property of Anarchists.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
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