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Thread: Whatever Happened to CNG-Powered Cars . . . ?

  1. #1

    Exclamation Whatever Happened to CNG-Powered Cars . . . ?

    Whatever Happened to CNG-Powered Cars . . . ?

    https://www.ericpetersautos.com/2017...-powered-cars/

    It’s interesting to speculate about why solutions that would have actually worked – which did work – seem to always just kind of . . . go away.

    Not the fabled 100 MPG carburetor. That probably never existed.

    But how about cars powered by compressed natural gas (CNG)?

    They did exist. And – much more interesting – they worked.

    Several car companies – including GM and Ford – offered them, briefly, back in the late 1990s. Including CNG-powered versions of their full-size sedans (the Impala and Crown Victoria, respectively) with room for six and a V8 engine under the hood.

    Beats hell out of a four cylinder hybrid.

    And not just 0-60.

    These CNG-powered cars didn’t cost a fortune – which made their economics much more sensible than most hybrids (and all electric cars).

    They didn’t have functional gimps, either – and thus, were practical. Most could operate on either CNG or gasoline, so no worries about running out of CNG (as opposed to battery charge) and being stuck.

    No range anxiety. No hours-long waits to refuel.

    Even the infrastructure to provide for CNG refueling is already largely in place in most urban and suburban areas, because natural gas lines are already in place. If your home has a gas furnace or gas appliances you could also refuel a CNG-powered vehicle at home – and in minutes, not hours.

    Massive government subsidies are not required. Not for the vehicles, not for the infrastructure/refueling facilities. As opposed to what would be absolutely necessary in order to make electric cars as mass-production vehicles functionally viable and leaving aside all the other considerations. Billions would have to be mulcted from taxpayers to erect a vast network of high-voltage “fast” chargers along the highways and secondary roads in order to keep hundreds of thousands – potentially, millions – of electric cars ambulatory.

    And even if that were done, the Wait Issue remains.

    Imagine it: Millions of people stuck for at least 30-40 minutes (best case scenario) to recharge their electric cars. The country – the economy – would literally come to a halt.

    And – the really big one – CNG-powered vehicles run clean.

    Much cleaner than today’s already very clean-running cars – because of the clean-burning nature of CNG. They may even run cleaner, in the aggregate, than so-called “zero emissions” electric cars – which may not emit emissions at their nonexistent tailpipes but the utility plants that burn oil and coal to produce the electricity that powers them most certainly do produce lots of emissions.

    The fact that this is almost never brought up by the media doesn’t mean it’s not true.

    One must also take into account the emissions generated during the very labor (and machine) intensive process of earth-rape necessary to manufacture electric cars and to obtain and process the raw materials used to make them and which are not needed to make CNG-powered cars.

    Which are just like other cars, no hundreds of pounds of toxic batteries on board.

    CNG-powered vehicles not only run cleaner, they run longer without needing things like oil changes. Service intervals can be increased by several thousand miles because burning CNG is clean; fewer contaminants are produced, so the oil doesn’t need to be replaced with fresh as often.

    That’s good for the Earth, too.

    CNG is also a fuel that exists in vast, almost unfathomable oceans underneath the United States – as opposed to under the control of Middle Eastern sheiks. And which doesn’t have to be refined from a precursor substance, such as petroleum.

    CNG is therefore inexpensive.

    It is estimated that there is enough natural gas in the United States alone to last for the next several hundred years, at least. Probably longer, because current estimates do not take into account the likelihood that additional vast oceans of natural gas will probably be found, to double or triple the currently known reserves.

    An interesting thing to consider:

    If say a third of the vehicles in circulation were CNG-powered, it would reduce the national demand for oil by an equivalent amount, with the likely effect that gasoline would become even cheaper than it already is (about $2.20 a gallon as of late June). That would make electric cars even more economically absurd than they already are.

    It would also do exactly what the chorus singing constantly the virtues of electric cars and hybrid cars warbles about: It would greatly reduce the country’s “dependence” on foreign oil.

    Reserves would not be sucked down the national gullet so hungrily. There would be more gasoline – and for longer and for cheaper.

    You’d think there’d be a clamor . . .

    Almost any existing vehicle – including full-size trucks and SUVs – can be modified to run on CNG. The existing engine (and transmission) can be used. No re-engineering is necessary. No elaborate, expensive technology is necessary.

    No diminishment of capability is involved.

    All that is necessary is modifying the vehicle’s fuel delivery system to accommodate the CNG and reprogramming its ECU – the computer that controls the fuel system – for CNG operation.

    No big – or expensive – deal.

    The biggest thing – and it’s a small thing, really – is the CNG tanks. These are similar in look and size to SCUBA tanks and while they do take up a lot of space (usually, trunk-space) that can be counterbalanced by the simple expedient of making the trunk – or the vehicle – larger.

    Mark that. Size, weight. Capacity, capability and performance. None of these things have to be sacrificed or even compromised

    CNG is perfectly adaptable to large, powerful and capable vehicles. Full-size sedans and truck and big SUVs with big V8s.

    And that is very interesting, indeed.

    It may explain what happened to CNG-powered vehicles.

    They worked too well. Were too practical, too efficient.

    They opened up a way for the average person to continue driving large, powerful and capable vehicles. Cars like the six-passenger/full-size Ford Crown Vic and Chevy Impala (old model, rear-wheel-drive and powered by V8, unlike the current model, which is front-wheel-drive and comes standard with a four cylinder) and – potentially – large SUVs and trucks, also with V8s.

    And at a reasonable price – less than the cost of a hybrid and far less than the cost of an electric car.

    It could have changed everything – and for the better.

    Instead, the cartel force-feeds us hybrids and electrics that make little if any economic sense. But which do make sense from a different perspective. Of course, that perspective isn’t our perspective.

    Once you adjust perspective, it all makes sense.

    And becomes very interesting, indeed.
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  3. #2
    I remember those... I do see some of the city busses that are CNG powered. The CNG cars, however, went the way of the Wankel, tho probably due to it's advantages more than any drawbacks.


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  4. #3
    All the vehicles at the local CNG company are...CNG powered.

  5. #4
    In fact this spurred me to check the news and low and behold Hickory, NC will be getting a CNG refueling station this summer.

    Piedmont Natural Gas hosts Spartanburg stop on cross-country natural gas vehicle road rally
    June 13, 2017


    June 13 event celebrates natural gas as a cleaner, low-cost alternative to diesel, other transportation fuels
    Event showcases natural gas vehicles as a cost-effective option for clean transportation projects in the Environmental Mitigation Trust Fund

    SPARTANBURG, S.C. – Piedmont Natural Gas today will host the only South Carolina stop on a coast-to-coast tour of natural gas vehicles (NGVs) when the 2017 “From Sea to Shining Sea” NGV Road Rally passes through Spartanburg.

    The second-annual event, nationally organized by NGVAmerica, the American Public Gas Association and The American Gas Association, showcases the growing use of natural gas as a transportation fuel and draws attention to the VW settlement program, educating state officials on why NGVs are the most cost-effective use of funds for clean transportation projects outlined in the $2.9 billion Environmental Mitigation Trust Fund.

    Vehicles participating in the relay-style tour will fill up at Piedmont’s public compressed natural gas (CNG) refueling station located at 501 West Blackstock Road in Spartanburg. A press conference will feature remarks from Piedmont Natural Gas and Palmetto Clean Fuels Coalition officials, a display of NGVs and an awards ceremony to recognize notable CNG users from the region, including AT&T, UPS, Waste Management and Gaffney-based Randolph Trucking.

    “As part of our commitment to sustainable business practices, Piedmont Natural Gas has been a longtime proponent of using cleaner, low-cost CNG as a transportation fuel, and we are proud to host today’s NGV Road Rally,” said Karl Newlin, senior vice president and chief commercial officer for natural gas operations for Piedmont’s parent company, Duke Energy. “Demand for CNG has increased significantly in recent years, and we believe it will continue to grow as we help build out the nation’s network of refueling stations.”

    Piedmont’s partners for today’s event include the Palmetto Clean Fuels Coalition, an initiative of South Carolina Energy Office that is focused on building an alternative fuels market in South Carolina. In addition to hosting the event, one of Piedmont’s own fleet vehicles fueled by CNG will drive a leg of the tour from Spartanburg to Salisbury, N.C., later today.

    The Spartanburg refueling station is one of 10 public CNG stations Piedmont operates throughout its service territory of North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee. Piedmont will open its 11th station this summer in Hickory, N.C., near the junction of Interstate 40 and U.S. 321.

    In addition to promoting the use of CNG, Piedmont also has converted more than 38 percent of its own corporate fleet vehicles to run on CNG and expects that percentage to grow to nearly 42 percent by the end of 2017. The commitment to reducing its carbon emissions in its fleet and company facilities helped Piedmont earn the distinction of being one of the nation’s top utility environmental champions in a recent survey of customers served by the nation’s largest residential gas and electric utilities.

    About Piedmont Natural Gas

    Piedmont Natural Gas, a North Carolina corporation, is an energy services company whose principal business is the distribution of natural gas to more than a million residential, commercial, industrial and power generation customers in portions of North Carolina, South Carolina and Tennessee. Piedmont provides a foundation for establishing a broader strategic natural gas infrastructure platform within Duke Energy to supplement and complement the previous natural gas pipeline investments and the natural gas business located in the Midwest.
    https://news.duke-energy.com/release...170613-6278420

  6. #5
    I started to look at truck prices for CNG then decided first to check out pricing of fuel.

    Pricing is determined by Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (GGE). In Hickory the current cost of gas is 1.99 per gallon. CNG is listed at $2.06 per GGE.

    So, CNG is more expensive per mile. At this stage I wouldn't be interested in it.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    In Hickory the current cost of gas is 1.99 per gallon.

    $2.70 to 2.85 here.

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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I started to look at truck prices for CNG then decided first to check out pricing of fuel.

    Pricing is determined by Gasoline Gallon Equivalent (GGE). In Hickory the current cost of gas is 1.99 per gallon. CNG is listed at $2.06 per GGE.

    So, CNG is more expensive per mile. At this stage I wouldn't be interested in it.
    I know a guy who has been running his converted airport commuter car beteen San Deago and LAX for years. He refills it in his garage. Claims it is around the equivalent of $.60 per gallon of regular gasoline.
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by shakey1 View Post
    I remember those... I do see some of the city busses that are CNG powered. The CNG cars, however, went the way of the Wankel, tho probably due to it's advantages more than any drawbacks.

    The Wankel was very inefficient. Lots of fun, but not efficient. Thus the fact that the Wankel actually lasted a very long time, but only in Mazda sports cars. As per it's actual (not perceived, not invented by marketing guys, but real) advantages.

    As for CNG, the fuel fill that takes minutes is a myth. To get the tank full takes hours. Because the energy content is less than gasoline, you also sacrifice some horsepower to use it. Not exactly advantages...
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  11. #9
    My company used to have a fleet of cng service vans. All the refill stations are in place, but we never buy them anymore.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Root View Post
    My company used to have a fleet of cng service vans. All the refill stations are in place, but we never buy them anymore.
    Why is that? Maintenance, reliability, costs, ? Just curious.

    All my forklifts are CNG (7) as are a lot of forklifts.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The Wankel was very inefficient. Lots of fun, but not efficient. Thus the fact that the Wankel actually lasted a very long time, but only in Mazda sports cars. As per it's actual (not perceived, not invented by marketing guys, but real) advantages.

    As for CNG, the fuel fill that takes minutes is a myth. To get the tank full takes hours. Because the energy content is less than gasoline, you also sacrifice some horsepower to use it. Not exactly advantages...
    I guess it depends on the station. I've read several articles and such that say the time to refuel is the same as a car, 3-4 minutes. At a public station. From a home fill station they say it takes over night.
    I've also read in some faq's that there is no notable difference in pick up and power. That CNG actually is a bit better because of the higher octane, 115 vs. 91-98.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I guess it depends on the station. I've read several articles and such that say the time to refuel is the same as a car, 3-4 minutes. At a public station. From a home fill station they say it takes over night.
    I've also read in some faq's that there is no notable difference in pick up and power. That CNG actually is a bit better because of the higher octane, 115 vs. 91-98.
    Fill time depends on whether you want a few gallons or a full tank. Natural gas is gaseous, and compressing or liquefying it is but a temporary measure. The faster you put it in, the more volatile it is, and the less liquid you have when you max the tank pressure. A splash doesn't take long. A full tank requires patience.

    And octane does not make a vehicle go. Put in 11:1 compression radical dome-top pistons in your engine and you can parlay octane into power. Without that, octane just means the fuel doesn't burn fast enough to finish combusting before the exhaust valve opens.

    Cars with enough compression to need premium fuel get better mileage, because they're more efficient. Cars which run fine on regular tend to get worse mileage on premium, because they tend to build up carbon inside and dump partially-burned fuel out the exhaust when slower-burning fuel is used.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 06-28-2017 at 06:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Fill time depends on whether you want a few gallons or a full tank. Natural gas is gaseous, and compressing or liquefying it is but a temporary measure. The faster you put it in, the more volatile it is, and the less liquid you have when you max the tank pressure.

    And octane does not make a vehicle go. Put in 11:1 compres
    Thanks for your input. I'm just starting to check this out myself. I've already gone through a number of sites that put CNG in a good light. Now I'm running across the negative ones. I think the best advise I've read so far is that there is a simple On/Off fuel changer system so you can have a bi-fuel vehicle. The advise said warm it up and run it on gas for a few miles then switch it over to CNG to get max fuel savings and also allow for best fuel pricing.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Whatever Happened to CNG-Powered Cars . . . ?
    I'd wager this line had a lot to do with it...

    If your home has a gas furnace or gas appliances you could also refuel a CNG-powered vehicle at home – and in minutes, not hours.
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Fill time depends on whether you want a few gallons or a full tank. Natural gas is gaseous, and compressing or liquefying it is but a temporary measure. The faster you put it in, the more volatile it is, and the less liquid you have when you max the tank pressure. A splash doesn't take long. A full tank requires patience.
    I would say that is design flaw then.

    We can unload one of these in 12 hours.



    And octane does not make a vehicle go. Put in 11:1 compression radical dome-top pistons in your engine and you can parlay octane into power. Without that, octane just means the fuel doesn't burn fast enough to finish combusting before the exhaust valve opens.
    Quite right, and natural gas does have less energy density for a given volume.

    But as Uncle Sucker continues to issue fatwas against diesel engines, and diesel fuel (have you looked at or smelled "ultra low sulfur" diesel? It smells like wax and has the energy density of rolled up paper...I'm guessing roughly half of the energy that was in a gallon of "old" diesel is there now) CNG is a great alternative for compression ignition engines.



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