Justin Amash is the anti-Ron Paul

[PAF]

Thank you for proving that your ideas would get us eliminated and conquered just as the Injuns were.

You are also ignoring all of the times and places that territory WAS taken from them by force.

You seem to pick and choose bits and pieces, ignoring what is the fundamental.

Yes, "territory" was taken by force, but only after they sold much of their own land to others, believing that the sale was not valid.

My signature is most sacred to me, and unless people truly understand that, and change their tune, NO other rights will be enforceable. Not you, not .gov, not AF, will ever change my mind.

[UWDude]

I am well aware of that history, I have cited it many times, and have traced the original land purchases of my own family back to lands purchased fair and square from the native tribes in New England and Pennsylvania.

It did not take long before the natives realized the danger of this: read about King Philip's War sometime.

Within 200 years they, native aboriginals, were for all intents and purposes, eliminated from the North American land mass.

Yup. In all cases of conquest and colonization, there are always those that do deals and trade with the invaders.
And it is true, the US government tried to make settlers respect Indian land, but settlers didn't care. And the US government was not interested in using its own people to enforce laws against its own people, so treaties were pretty much meaningless.
The indians could never show enough solidarity to stop other indians from making deals for knives and pots and guns and plastic lawn chairs.

Same with Africa. In Africa, the disenfranchised Africans were overjoyed to see British and French colonizers on the horizon. It meant a new start for many of them, and the Europeans used this to full effect. I've read quite a few books on the matter, some from perspective of colonial resisters, and some from perspective of colonial collaborators. Christian ideals like the "meek shall inherit the Earth" resonated quite well with Africans shunned by their own tribes, and indeed, in many cases, it was the meek who ended up ruling over their former chieftains.

And i see the "freedom" the globalists are trying to bring America, by empowering the weak, by elevating victimhood. I see the attempts at censorship, thought control and disarmament. Not interested in selling my rights for cheap lawn chairs.

In the meantime, the Chinese are buying up all the land, housing, technology companies and farms, with the money they get from sellign Americans cheap plastic lawn chairs. I know this personally because whenever I see my landlord, who is Chinese, I have to listen to him rail on Trump, and say nothing. Wouldn't want to be kicked out of my home because a man who has lived here for less than a decade thinks he knows better for my country than I do. (Funnily, he thinks black people are the richest Americans. I thought he was joking at first. But nope, he insisted, he thinks they are all sports stars and music stars. When I told him they were the poorest, he just said "nah, I don;t know about that, I think you are wrong).

Every time I see him, though, he starts bagging on Trump for whatever the hot story of the day is.

Oh, and i say this, because out of my past 4 residences, 3 have been owned by Chinese, and one was owned by a Serb.

[Swordsmyth]

You seem to pick and choose bits and pieces, ignoring what is the fundamental.

Yes, "territory" was taken by force, but only after they sold much of their own land to others, believing that the sale was not valid.

My signature is most sacred to me, and unless people truly understand that, and change their tune, NO other rights will be enforceable. Not you, not .gov, not AF, will ever change my mind.

And you expect us to allow traitors to sell land to the invaders and allow them in our territory in unlimited numbers until they kill all of us and take everything that wasn't sold to them.

You are making the case against your own position.

[Krugminator2]

Pat Buchanan is an idiot. He is just wrong and it isn't debatable. His argument is the bottom of the barrel argument for tariffs.

Both countries win economically when you allow trade otherwise trade wouldn't happen. People don't make it a habit to make themselves worse off when they buy something. Consumers choose foreign products when they deem them better or cheaper. I drive a Japanese car for that reason. I shop at Wal-Mart. In turn the producers int he foreign country buys US products or invests in the US. I don't get the fetish of manufacturing. And he isn't even right about that. The US manufactures more now than at any point in history.

Why would any country want to be economically independent? They are basically saying they want to be poorer and inefficient. Not to mention free trade is a safeguard against big government. If government regulation stifles business at home, someone outside the borders will produce it more efficiently.

[UWDude]

Pat Buchanan is an idiot. He is just wrong and it isn't debatable. His argument is the bottom of the barrel argument for tariffs.

Both countries win economically when you allow trade otherwise trade wouldn't happen. People don't make it a habit to make themselves worse off when they buy something. Consumers choose foreign products when they deem them better or cheaper. In turn the foreign country buys foreign products or invests in the US.

Why would any country want to be economically independent? They are basically saying they want to be poorer. Not to mention free trade is a safeguard against big government. If government regulation stifles business at home, someone outside the borders will produce it more efficiently.

Chinese tariffs are good, American tariffs are bad, because everyone wins if there are no tariffs.

Welfare for Americans and immigrants are bad. That's why we need to let all the immigrants in.

[Swordsmyth]

Yup. In all cases of conquest and colonization, there are always those that do deals and trade with the invaders.
And it is true, the US government tried to make settlers respect Indian land, but settlers didn't care. And the US government was not interested in using its own people to enforce laws against its own people, so treaties were pretty much meaningless.
The indians could never show enough solidarity to stop other indians from making deals for knives and pots and guns and plastic lawn chairs.

Same with Africa. In Africa, the disenfranchised Africans were overjoyed to see British and French colonizers on the horizon. It meant a new start for many of them, and the Europeans used this to full effect. I've read quite a few books on the matter, some from perspective of colonial resisters, and some from perspective of colonial collaborators. Christian ideals like the "meek shall inherit the Earth" resonated quite well with Africans shunned by their own tribes, and indeed, in many cases, it was the meek who ended up ruling over their former chieftains.

And i see the "freedom" the globalists are trying to bring America, by empowering the weak, by elevating victimhood. I see the attempts at censorship, thought control and disarmament. Not interested in selling my rights for cheap lawn chairs.

In the meantime, the Chinese are buying up all the land, housing, technology companies and farms, with the money they get from sellign Americans cheap plastic lawn chairs. I know this personally because whenever I see my landlord, who is Chinese, I have to listen to him rail on Trump, and say nothing. Wouldn't want to be kicked out of my home because a man who has lived here for less than a decade thinks he knows better for my country than I do. (Funnily, he thinks black people are the richest Americans. I thought he was joking at first. But nope, he insisted, he thinks they are all sports stars and music stars. When I told him they were the poorest, he just said "nah, I don;t know about that, I think you are wrong).

Every time I see him, though, he starts bagging on Trump for whatever the hot story of the day is.

Oh, and i say this, because out of my past 4 residences, 3 have been owned by Chinese, and one was owned by a Serb.

Further evidence that your way will get us all killed.

[Swordsmyth]

Both countries win economically when you allow trade otherwise trade wouldn't happen.

NOT when a government is allowed to interfere and warp the marketplace to conduct destructive trade warfare.

Why would any country want to be economically independent? They are basically saying they want to be poorer and inefficient.

Because you need independence to preserve liberty, dependence breeds tyranny.

Not to mention free trade is a safeguard against big government. If government regulation stifles business at home, someone outside the borders will produce it more efficiently.

You must mean it is a CRUTCH for big government that allows it to grow and cement itself in the culture because its effects are masked.

[kcchiefs6465]

That is NOT what we have been discussing AT ALL.
We have been discussing trade warfare and how to respond to it.

'Trade warfare' is an oxymoron and is quite frankly a stupid idea. Trade reduces the likelihood of warfare.

It is part of the reason you are being mocked with absurdity.

With regards to the Saudis.... wasn't the leader of the free world quite honest recently with regards to why we tolerate the atrocities committed by the Saudis?

Thanks for proving you are losing the argument.

The 'argument' to me, just about every economist of the last hundred plus years, and anyone who cherishes freedom is hardly an argument at all. It is 18th century Hamiltonianism. It is antiquated mercantilist dogma. It is just not really worth a serious response.. though I have been trying to be very patient in dispelling the nonsense (for what little my thoughts are worth).

You guys would be the Tories trading with the British during the revolution, your projection is amazing.

Didn't the Founding Fathers rebel in part due to excessive tariffs?

[Swordsmyth]

'Trade warfare' is an oxymoron and is quite frankly a stupid idea. Trade reduces the likelihood of warfare.

That's nonsense, any way you can purposely damage and destroy another country can be used for war.

It is part of the reason you are being mocked with absurdity.

With regards to the Saudis.... wasn't the leader of the free world quite honest recently with regards to why we tolerate the atrocities committed by the Saudis?

I'm not going to let you change the subject no matter how much you want to.

The 'argument' to me, just about every economist of the last hundred plus years, and anyone who cherishes freedom is hardly an argument at all. It is 18th century Hamiltonianism. It is antiquated mercantilist dogma. It is just not really worth a serious response.. though I have been trying to be very patient in dispelling the nonsense (for what little my thoughts are worth).

That is what the Chinese are engaging in, defending against it isn't the same thing, even Adam Smith said so.

Didn't the Founding Fathers rebel in part due to excessive tariffs?

No, they imposed tariffs of their own after the Revolution, they rebelled because a government they had no representation in was putting many different kinds of taxes on them.

[PAF]

I see the attempts at censorship, thought control and disarmament.

I know this personally because whenever I see my landlord, who is Chinese, I have to listen to him rail on Trump, and say nothing. Wouldn't want to be kicked out of my home because a man who has lived here for less than a decade thinks he knows better for my country than I do.

Every time I see him, though, he starts bagging on Trump for whatever the hot story of the day is.

Oh, and i say this, because out of my past 4 residences, 3 have been owned by Chinese, and one was owned by a Serb.

When I lived in LA I was down and out broke. Termites were the only thing holding up the walls. I was resourceful, and moved to a better place.

When I lived in New Hampshire, I did not like the owner, but I never said nothing. The sink never got fixed, I was expected to pay on time, adios, and on to a another place.

Those are only a couple of the many, many examples of when I lived across this nation.

Race has nothing to do with it.

[Krugminator2]

Chinese tariffs are good, American tariffs are bad, because everyone wins if there are no tariffs.

Welfare for Americans and immigrants are bad. That's why we need to let all the immigrants in.

What? No. Chinese tariffs aren't good. China harms themselves with tariffs. Everyone does win with no tariffs. There is no economic advantage to tariffs. From a purely economic perspective we should have no tariffs regardless of any other country's policy. This is not up for debate.

[kcchiefs6465]

I am quite certain that there are more than a few people who are opposed to any manner of collective defense.

They probably more oppose being robbed to pay for a collective [offense]. They probably wouldn't have much an issue with voluntary militias, community defense organizations, etc.

They abhor the idea, and maintain that, even if convinced of the concept, there is nothing worthwhile left of this nation to defend anyways.

The land is. Absent pacifists, most would object in one way or another to their property being confiscated. Seemingly except when a government is introduced. Though to be fair, many nails have been hammered and as society becomes wealthier it takes more and more to reach a tipping point of oppression needed to call for the correction.

I used to think that myself...but upon more careful reflection I came to the conclusion that I was wrong...not only from a philosophical perspective but from a very real, save my life, perspective.

The new left Bolsheviks/Jacobins will kill us if they are given the chance.

They ought not be given the chance.

The cost of living increases will do more to incite a Bolshevik horde than what's her name from Michigan or New York will ever do. Deficits too.

[UWDude]

When I lived in LA I was down and out broke. Termites were the only thing holding up the walls. I was resourceful, and moved to a better place.

When I lived in New Hampshire, I did not like the owner, but I never said nothing. The sink never got fixed, I was expected to pay on time, adios, and on to a another place.

Those are only a couple of the many, many examples of when I lived across this nation.

Race has nothing to do with it.

It does when the person understands nothing about your country except what he sees on TV.
He really thinks black people are the richest people in America.
Nobody who has lived here their whole life thinks black people are the richest people in America.

Oh, and lets talk about his racism. He said Mexicans are hard workers, I said "Americans and black people are hard workers too" both him, and a liberal white guy just looked at each other, laughed, and said "nooooo I dont think so!"

I just laughed, said "thas raciss" and took another swig of beer.

[UWDude]

This is not up for debate.

LoL. If you say so.

[PAF]

And you expect us to allow traitors to sell land to the invaders and allow them in our territory in unlimited numbers until they kill all of us and take everything that wasn't sold to them.

You are making the case against your own position.

SwordSmyth, I am willing to engage in conversation with you, but NOT if you continue to twist my words

[Swordsmyth]

Further evidence that your way will get us all killed.

Sorry @UWDude, I got confused who posted that.

I thought it was @PAF

[PAF]

It does when the person understands nothing about your country except what he sees on TV.
He really thinks black people are the richest people in America.
Nobody who has lived here their whole life thinks black people are the richest people in America.

Oh, and lets talk about his racism. He said Mexicans are hard workers, I said "Americans and black people are hard workers too" both him, and a liberal white guy just looked at each other, laughed, and said "nooooo I dont think so!"

I just laughed, said "thas raciss" and took another swig of beer.

Then you find something in common with him, lighten up the mood, and slowly inject ideas of liberty. If he is a property owner, say something liberty oriented that would be in his defense.

That is how our weekly group grew from 3 of us to over 60, and occasionally bring more in. Again, race having nothing to do with it once you reach them.

[Swordsmyth]

SwordSmyth, I am willing to engage in conversation with you, but NOT if you continue to twist my words

I'm not twisting anything, thank you for undermining your own argument by giving an example of people who allow foreigners to come in unlimited numbers and sold them as much land as they wanted who were then conquered and wiped out.

I know you are mad that I pointed out the truth because you don't like the truth, you prefer fantasy.

[Swordsmyth]

Then you find something in common with him, lighten up the mood, and slowly inject ideas of liberty. If he is a property owner, say something liberty oriented that would be in his defense.

That is how our weekly group grew from 3 of us to over 60, and occasionally bring more in. Again, race having nothing to do with it once you reach them.

We can't do that as fast as they come UNLESS WE LIMIT HOW MANY CAN COME.

[Swordsmyth]

What? No. Chinese tariffs aren't good. China harms themselves with tariffs. Everyone does win with no tariffs. There is no economic advantage to tariffs. From a purely economic perspective we should have no tariffs regardless of any other country's policy. This is not up for debate.

LOL

[Swordsmyth]

The cost of living increases will do more to incite a Bolshevik horde than what's her name from Michigan or New York will ever do. Deficits too.

The thing that is giving the most gas to the communist movement is the loss of jobs and the dependence on government that creates, the ChiComs know what they are doing.

[PAF]

We can't do that as fast as they come UNLESS WE LIMIT HOW MANY CAN COME.

If .GOV TRULY CARES - WHICH THEY DON'T - they would End Welfare and Incentives, NOT become immigration restrictionists, impose ridiculous tariffs and trample MY rights. But you can not see beyond your STATIST nose.

2 wrongs do NOT make it right, it only makes it worse. YOUR way does just THAT.

[Swordsmyth]

If .GOV TRULY CARES - WHICH THEY DON'T - they would End Welfare and Incentives, NOT become immigration restrictionists, impose ridiculous tariffs and trample MY rights. But you can not see beyond your STATIST nose.

That is NOT enough, they came here to fast to assimilate before we had a welfare state.

2 wrongs do NOT make it right, it only makes it worse. YOUR way does just THAT.

It's NOT wrong to keep your territory from being overrun by people hostile to liberty and it makes things MUCH better, your way makes things worse and it always has.
It destroyed the Injuns but you just get mad when I point that out.

[nobody's_hero]

What? No. Chinese tariffs aren't good. China harms themselves with tariffs. Everyone does win with no tariffs. There is no economic advantage to tariffs. From a purely economic perspective we should have no tariffs regardless of any other country's policy. This is not up for debate.

That's a very hardline position to take and I think tariffs are much more complex than you are depicting.

Say you own a business. Your competition resides across the street. Every time you try to sell a product, you get punched in the face. Every time your competitor sells a product, he gets a pat on the back and a subsidy, meaning he can offer even cheaper rates.

Your competitor is happy because he gets rewarded. The consumer is happy because hey, cheap stuff. That leaves you, frustrated, folding up shop—not because of some "free-market" "best man won"-type of outcome, but because the market was so distorted you couldn't survive without some sort of balance.

I'm not sure what the solution is but I'm just not to the point where I can see this as a positive, especially considering that the trade situation we've been in for several decades is most likely devised to conceal the harmful policies of the Fed. Promote consumerism, punish productivity, it just seems very Keynesian to me.

[Swordsmyth]

That's a very hardline position to take and I think tariffs are much more complex than you are depicting.

Say you own a business. Your competition resides across the street. Every time you try to sell a product, you get punched in the face. Every time your competitor sells a product, he gets a pat on the back and a subsidy, meaning he can offer even cheaper rates.

Your competitor is happy because he gets rewarded. The consumer is happy because hey, cheap stuff. That leaves you, frustrated, folding up shop—not because of some "free-market" "best man won"-type of outcome, but because the market was so distorted you couldn't survive without some sort of balance.

I'm not sure what the solution is but I'm just not to the point where I can see this as a positive, especially considering that the trade situation we've been in for several decades is most likely devised to conceal the harmful policies of the Fed. Promote consumerism, punish productivity, it just seems very Keynesian to me.

Don't get in the way of his Chinese welfare.

[Swordsmyth]

I'm not twisting anything, thank you for undermining your own argument by giving an example of people who allow foreigners to come in unlimited numbers and sold them as much land as they wanted who were then conquered and wiped out.

I know you are mad that I pointed out the truth because you don't like the truth, you prefer fantasy.

LOL
@PAF got so angry at the truth that he negged me.

[PAF]

The cost of living increases will do more to incite a Bolshevik horde than what's her name from Michigan or New York will ever do. Deficits too.

Sword Shill doesn't get that this .gov is causing the very problems by not eliminating the incentives/Welfare, not only for immigrants but Section 8 as well.

Once cheap products are no longer to be had and prices start to soar, I wonder what Sword Shill's approach will be when multi-generational Americans on Section 8 start having MORE babies on top of the 5 they already have by 3 different fathers in order up the monthly Welfare checks!

Sword Shill has no concept of cause and effect. Things may be undesirable now.... but you know what? Let the whole the damned thing collapse - the sooner the better!

[Anti Federalist]

You seem to pick and choose bits and pieces, ignoring what is the fundamental.

Yes, "territory" was taken by force, but only after they sold much of their own land to others, believing that the sale was not valid.

My signature is most sacred to me, and unless people truly understand that, and change their tune, NO other rights will be enforceable. Not you, not .gov, not AF, will ever change my mind.

You are being invaded by millions of people, right now, who are fixing to take your property and kick you down the road, assuming they just don't kill you instead.

I agree, the right to own and protect property is critical, that's why I'm trying to make this as clear as I can.

[UWDude]

Sword Shill doesn't get that this .gov is causing the very problems by not eliminating the incentives/Welfare, not only for immigrants but Section 8 as well.

Once cheap products are no longer to be had and prices start to soar, I wonder what Sword Shill's approach will be when multi-generational Americans on Section 8 start having MORE babies on top of the 5 they already have by 3 different fathers in order up the monthly Welfare checks!

Sword Shill has no concept of cause and effect. Things may be undesirable now.... but you know what? Let the whole the damned thing collapse - the sooner the better!

Americans and immigrants gettign welfare is the problem, not immigration. that is why we need to allow all the immigrants in until we eliminate welfare.

[Swordsmyth]

Sword Shill doesn't get that this .gov is causing the very problems by not eliminating the incentives/Welfare, not only for immigrants but Section 8 as well.

Once cheap products are no longer to be had and prices start to soar, I wonder what Sword Shill's approach will be when multi-generational Americans on Section 8 start having MORE babies on top of the 5 they already have by 3 different fathers in order up the monthly Welfare checks!

Sword Shill has no concept of cause and effect. Things may be undesirable now.... but you know what? Let the whole the damned thing collapse - the sooner the better!

Trump is doing what he can to eliminate welfare and the slummies are already popping out kids in record numbers but if we fight back in the trade war we will restore our economy and get people off welfare.