Mexico murder rate reaches a stunning 19.8 per 100,000 in 2017

[navy-vet]

I've heard the same stats from other sources too.



I am totally against illegal immigration, so we are in agreement there. I was just saying that there are lots of countries that are more corrupt than Mexico that no one is talking about... And also to imply that Mexicans in general are the same as the ones who cross the border illegally or come to the US with bad intentions, is simply incorrect. As r3v alluded to, many Hispanic immigrants are very conservative, actually. And love the principles that our country stands for. Of course I'm not talking about the illegals.

Thank you for this insight. I totally believe that you are right about this and this isn't said enough. Godbless

[r3volution 3.0]

Country A and Country B are identical, except in Country A widgets cost $50, while in Country B they cost $100.

It is observed that demand for widgets in Country A is higher.

What is the better explanation for this phenomenon:

(1) The price of widgets is inversely related to demand.

(2) The residents of both countries have free will, and the difference is random.

Both, the people of country A have CHOSEN to desire more widgets and therefore to pay more for them, from an outsider's perspective that choice was random.

Let's try one more time...

A socialist says, "that unemployment surged after we raised the minimum wage is coincidental, employers just randomly decided to fire people."

I say, "no, the surge in unemployment was caused by the rise in the minimum wage, employers were responding to incentives."

These are both good explanations..?

[Swordsmyth]

Let's try one more time...

A socialist says, "that unemployment surged after we raised the minimum wage is coincidental, employers just randomly decided to fire people."

I say, "no, the surge in unemployment was caused by the rise in the minimum wage, employers were responding to incentives."

These are both good explanations..?

No, the socialist is wrong, some actions are a response to outside stimuli.

However the question is why did some people choose to give in to greed and raise the minimum wage in country A while others in country B chose to resist temptation and leave wages up to the market?

The answer to that is free will which from the point of view of an outsider is random, some people CHOOSE one way while others CHOOSE the opposite.

[r3volution 3.0]

No, the socialist is wrong

How would you prove him wrong?

However the question is why did some people choose to give in to greed and raise the minimum wage in country A while others in country B chose to resist temptation and leave wages up to the market?

The answer to that is free will which from the point of view of an outsider is random, some people CHOOSE one way while others CHOOSE the opposite.

Does that explanation have any predictive value?

In other words, does the fact that people choose to do things give us any insight into what they will actually do?

...or is "people do what they do because they choose to do it" a tautology of no predictive or explanatory value?

[Swordsmyth]

How would you prove him wrong?

As I said some actions are a response to outside stimuli, if you increase the cost of employees some of them will no longer be profitable to employ and rational businessmen will cease to employ them.

Does that explanation have any predictive value?

In other words, does the fact that people choose to do things give us any insight into what they will actually do?

...or is "people do what they do because they choose to do it" a tautology of no predictive or explanatory value?

It has no predictive value that is why I said it is random from an outsider's point of view, it has explanatory value because it is the truth, if you deny that some decisions are the arbitrary choice of the person making them you will search for another (wrong) explanation and end up with a philosophical heresy like racism or "man the bio-mechanical machine".

Genetics has a minor effect on human behavior not worth discussing and environment has a moderate effect that defines the context in which human behavior takes place, but it is free will for which the individual is responsible that is the ultimate determinant of human behavior.

[r3volution 3.0]

As I said some actions are a response to outside stimuli, if you increase the cost of employees some of them will no longer be profitable to employ and rational businessmen will cease to employ them.

Right, you wouldn't be able to refute him, or explain the phenomenon, by resort to "people choose to do what they do."

It has no predictive value

Right

Now, if your explanation of Mexican behavior has no predictive value, why are you using it to predict how they'll behave after arriving in the US?

[Swordsmyth]

Right, you wouldn't be able to refute him, or explain the phenomenon, by resort to "people choose to do what they do."



Right

Now, if your explanation of Mexican behavior has no predictive value, why are you using it to predict how they'll behave after arriving in the US?

I'm not, I'm using it to explain how they ended up with the culture they have, I'm using the culture they have (an environmental factor) to predict how they'll behave after arriving in the US.

[Cap]

I wonder how Chicago stacks up with their 100,000 stats?

[lilymc]

Been to Mexico a lot and they are wonderful people.

Have US friends that will only go to dentists & doctors in Mexico because the care is excellent & the low prices are unbelievable.

Yes, that has been my experience too, although I haven't had to go to the doctor much in the last several years.

It's so cheap to live there too. When I lived in Mazatlan (for missions) I had a cute two–bedroom apartment directly across the street from the beach for $240 a month. I thought that was a great deal, but I met an expat there who said that was actually expensive compared to some other places he knew about.

[r3volution 3.0]

I'm not, I'm using it to explain how they ended up with the culture they have

I'm using the culture they have (an environmental factor) to predict how they'll behave after arriving in the US.

"People do what they choose to do" cannot explain how particular people end up with a particular mode of behavior.

Nor can it be used as a basis for predicting whether said people will continue with that behavior in the future.

[Swordsmyth]

"People do what they choose to do" cannot explain how particular people end up with a particular mode of behavior.

It's the only explanation for some behavior.

Nor can it be used as a basis for predicting whether said people will continue with that behavior in the future.

That's why I cited their culture which is an environmental factor that was created over centuries by people's choices.



For the 3rd and last time : Would you want to let a horde of Athenian Democrats into to your ideal kingdom?

3 strikes and you're out

[r3volution 3.0]

Nor can it be used as a basis for predicting whether said people will continue with that behavior in the future.

That's why I cited their culture which is an environmental factor that was created over centuries by people's choices.

Earlier, you identified their culture with their behavior (i.e. you were unable characterize their culture except by pointing to their behavior).

Now you're saying their culture affects their behavior.

But, if their culture is their behavior, it can't also be the cause of their behavior, can it?

That would be nonsense, wouldn't it?

For the 3rd and last time : Would you want to let a horde of Athenian Democrats into to your ideal kingdom?

3 strikes and you're out

Page 2, Post #39

@r3volution 3.0

Would you want to let a horde of wild eyed Athenian Democrats move into your ideal kingdom?

Very few people are ideological zealots. Most people are just reacting to their environment. That a person comes from a socialist/democratic/Islamist country doesn't mean they're zealous socialists/democrats/Islamists. They almost certainly aren't. So, to answer your question; there'd be no reason to refuse people simply because they came from a place whose government is an abomination. Refusing actual zealous, some revolutionary cadre ala the bolsheviks that repatriated to Russia during WWI, is another matter, and might well be justified in the interest of security.

[Swordsmyth]

Page 2, Post #39

Sorry, somehow I missed that.

[r3volution 3.0]

Sorry, somehow I missed that.

no problem

[Swordsmyth]

Earlier, you identified their culture with their behavior (i.e. you were unable characterize their culture except by pointing to their behavior).

Now you're saying their culture affects their behavior.

But, if their culture is their behavior, it can't also be the cause of their behavior, can it?

That would be nonsense, wouldn't it?

Culture is a set of beliefs that affect people's actions, the only way to know a people's culture is to look at their actions, I look at their actions and I see what their culture is, I then predict that that culture will influence them to continue those action.

Do you REALLY need this explained to you along with all the other basic concepts I've had to explain in this conversation?

[r3volution 3.0]

Culture is a set of beliefs that affect people's actions, the only way to know a people's culture is to look at their actions, I look at their actions and I see what their culture is, I then predict that that culture will influence them to continue those action.

So, in a nutshell, your theory is that people will continue to behave the way they're behaving, regardless of the environment?

...where did those beliefs come from in the first place, by the way?

Randomly, as a pure exercise of arbitrary will, nothing to do with the world in which they lived, I suppose....

[Swordsmyth]

Mexicans certainly have a different culture, but love of bribery isn't part of it; that is environmental.

There's no reason to expect them to behave that way in our environment.

Except that their culture is an internal environmental factor that they bring with them.

Very few people are ideological zealots. Most people are just reacting to their environment. That a person comes from a socialist/democratic/Islamist country doesn't mean they're zealous socialists/democrats/Islamists. They almost certainly aren't. So, to answer your question; there'd be no reason to refuse people simply because they came from a place whose government is an abomination. Refusing actual zealous, some revolutionary cadre ala the bolsheviks that repatriated to Russia during WWI, is another matter, and might well be justified in the interest of security.

And if you don't control your immigration how will you know who are the zealots intent on bringing down your monarchy?

People do continue to vote for the kind of politics they are used to voting for in their home country, your monarchy would have the advantage of not allowing them to vote and hoping that they weren't zealous enough to stage an uprising because of it before they were assimilated into monarchist culture but we don't have that luxury. (every form of government has some advantages but without going over the same old subject again you know I don't believe that monarchy's advantages outweigh it's drawbacks)

[Swordsmyth]

So, in a nutshell, your theory is that people will continue to behave the way they're behaving, regardless of the environment?

It will take time for the external environment to alter their culture, a process known as assimilation, if you let too many in too fast they change the environment before it changes them.

[Swordsmyth]

...where did those beliefs come from in the first place, by the way?

Randomly, as a pure exercise of arbitrary will, nothing to do with the world in which they lived, I suppose....

A mixture of random environmental factors might have been involved (famines, floods, external enemy predation, etc.) but if you trace the roots of most human related "environmental" factors they started with somebody's arbitrary choices.

[r3volution 3.0]

A mixture of random environmental factors might have been involved (famines, floods, external enemy predation, etc.)

Of course!

Unidentified random forces!

That's a much better explanation than underpaid officials.

The strong correlation between underpaid officials and corruption around the world, and through history, is obviously a coincidence.

In each of those cases, there must have been some unidentified random forces which caused the behavior (though we can't say how).

It will take time for the external environment to alter their culture, a process known as assimilation

Does this apply to all behaviors?

How long does it take for employers to assimilate to the new environment of a higher minimum wage?

And if you don't control your immigration how will you know who are the zealots intent on bringing down your monarchy?

First determine whether there's any serious threat out there.

Then determine whether it justifies the cost of screening travelers.

If so, screen.

[Swordsmyth]

Of course!

Unidentified random forces!

That's a much better explanation than underpaid officials.

The strong correlation between underpaid officials and corruption around the world, and through history, is obviously a coincidence.

In each of those cases, there must have been some unidentified random forces which caused the behavior (though we can't say how).

And what cause the underpaid officials?
I have never denied that underpaid officials were a factor but if you follow the chain of causality back to the beginning then all first causes will either be the choices people made or random environmental factors.

First determine whether there's any serious threat out there.

There is, it is called socialism.

Then determine whether it justifies the cost of screening travelers.

It does.

If so, screen.

And then reject all socialists. (most of the world at this point)

[r3volution 3.0]

And what cause the underpaid officials?

Poverty, as explained

I have never denied that underpaid officials were a factor but if you follow the chain of causality back to the beginning then all first causes will either be the choices people made or random environmental factors.

1. The choices aren't separable from the environment in which they're made. Free will =/= arbitrary decision-making.

2. You don't need to go back very far to explain current behaviors. Human beings act on the basis of their values (which are a product of their [not their ancestors'] environment) and the immediate environment [policeman is getting paid well or not getting paid well]. The fact that the current environment and current decision-making is a product of past environments and past decision-making is irrelevant vis a vis explaining or predicting current behavior. Imagine Mexico as it is, having developed as it did over the past 500 years. Now imagine that there's another, identical society somewhere else, except it just popped into existence yesterday. The residents will behave the same; it's the present situation which affects behavior.

There is, it is called socialism.

It does.

And then reject all socialists. (most of the world at this point)

Disagree on all fronts, for reasons explained

[AZJoe]

Top 25 Murder Rates By Country
Rank Country Murder Rate (Per 100,000 Inhabitants)
1 Honduras 91.6
2 El Salvador 69.2
3 Jamaica 52.2
4 Venezuela 45.1
5 Belize 41.4
6 Guatemala 38.5
7 Saint Kitts and Nevis 38.2
8 Trinidad and Tobago 35.2
9 Colombia 33.4
10 South Africa 31.1
11 Bahamas 27.4
12 Brazil 26.7
13 Puerto Rico 26.2
14 Saint Lucia 25.2
15 Dominican Republic 25
16 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 22.9
17 Mexico 22.7
18 Panama 21.6
19 Greenland 19.2
20 Guyana 18.6
21 Ecuador 15.2
22 Zimbabwe 14.3
23 Nicaragua 13.6
24 Turkmenistan 12.8
25 Grenada 11.5

I've been to eight of the countries on that list.

[Swordsmyth]

Poverty, as explained

And where did the poverty come from? From bad decisions and/or random events in their history.

1. The choices aren't separable from the environment in which they're made. Free will =/= arbitrary decision-making.

They are separate but they do affect eachother, environment sets the context and can limit the options and provide a "push" for or against some of the options but the individual then uses his arbitrary will to choose from the available options and in favor of or against the "push".

2. You don't need to go back very far to explain current behaviors. Human beings act on the basis of their values (which are a product of their [not their ancestors'] environment) and the immediate environment [policeman is getting paid well or not getting paid well]. The fact that the current environment and current decision-making is a product of past environments and past decision-making is irrelevant vis a vis explaining or predicting current behavior. Imagine Mexico as it is, having developed as it did over the past 500 years. Now imagine that there's another, identical society somewhere else, except it just popped into existence yesterday. The residents will behave the same; it's the present situation which affects behavior.

Except culture is a major portion of environment and you asked me how I thought they came by theirs, the answer is it accumulated over the course of their history.
If we had the power to create a brand new culture with the same environment (including the same culture) then the answer would be that we created their culture for them and then we would be responsible for it instead of them and their ancestors.

[Danke]

I've been to eight of the countries on that list.

Have you been to many Injun reservations too?

[Ender]

Mexico, as It Is and Wasn’t: Some Stuff Worth Knowing

By Fred Reed

November 17, 2017


For Americans concerned about Mexico and Mexicans, and what sort of wights they be, a little history may help. We seem to know almost nothing about a bordering nation of 130 million. It is not what most of us think it is. It is certainly not what the Loon Right would have us believe.

For many years, until 1910, Mexico was run by Europeans, lastly under Porfirio Diaz, for the benefit of Europeans. Literacy was extremely with economic conditions to match. The country was indeed, to borrow a favorite phrase of those hostile to Latin Americans, a Third-World hellhole. Many nations then were, to include China.

In 1910 the Revolution broke out. It was godawful, as civil wars usually are. It ended in 1921, followed shortly by the Cristero religious war until 1929. This had the usual hideousness favored by religious wars.

It left the country devastated. It hadn’t been much to start with, but now it was a wreck. Aldous Huxley, writing in 1934, saw no improvement. (Beyond the Mexique Bay) At least until 1940 much of Mexico was barely civilized, unlettered, lawless, and poor. Things were not all that swell in 1970.

Today, seventy-six years later (says the CIA Factbook), literacy is at 95%; the economy at $2.2 trillion, 12th in the world in PPP; median age, 28; population growth rate, 1.12%; mother’s mean age at first birth, 21.3; total fertility, 2.24 children per woman; life expectancy at birth, 76 years.

Mexico today has a large number of universities (the Technológico of Monterrey, a premier engineering school, has some thirty campuses in as many cities: Is that one university or thirty?) Mexico graduates well over 100,000 engineers a year, including 13,000 in software, and has a rapidly growing high-tech industry with centers in Guadalajara and Mexico City. Major American firms, to include IBM, Oracle, and Intel, come here to hire them.

And of course internet, airlines, computerized everything, and teenagers pecking at smartphones.

This is a lot of change in less than a man’s lifetime. Those hostile to Latin Americans do not want to know this, and usually manage not to.

In many ways Mexico remains a mess, mostly because of organized crime and corruption. Distribution of wealth is badly unequal, being now what the US is becoming. Books could be written about what is wrong with the country. Finland it isn’t. But neither is ti remotely a “Third-World hell hole” despite the squalling of such authorities as Ann Coulter, Manhattan’s premier she-ass.

It would be a good idea to retire the phrase, “Third World.” Any designation that includes both Buenos Aires and Haiti (I have spent time in the slums of Cite Soleil with the US Army) is so broad as to be without meaning. In 1930, China, Mexico, Thailand and so on could reasonably have been called hellholes. None of these even comes close today. The slums of India do, as does much of Africa, yes.

To grasp the degree of educational advance between the Mexico as it was and as of 1940 and today, look at what is visible on the ground:

Go into an ordinary bank, with which Mexico is littered. The clerks have to understand exchange rates, intermediate banks, SWIFT codes. They sit at computers, which are networked within the bank and with national headquarters, requiring network engineers and software weenies. Multitudinous ATMs require network people and maintainers. Telmex, the quite good telephone monopoly, needs people to program and maintain switches and associated software. So do TelCel and ATT, cell-phone providers. Airlines need pilots and trainers of pilots, people to run and maintain high-bypass turbofans and avionics, the instrument-landing systems (ILS). The internet needs software people, router techs, help-line techs when someone’s modem fails (the techs are good). Also doctors and dentists, universities to train them, people who understand and maintain MRI gear, the usual elaborate diagnostic instrumentation, mechanics to run the diagnostic computers at car dealerships and understand what lurks under the hoods of today’s cars (which would baffle Stephen Hawking). And so on at great length. Similar observations could be made of many Latin American and Asian countries. Starting from roughly zero a few decades ago.

Anyone who actually lives here can see that the country continues to change at a high rate. The middle class grows. Internet speeds keep going up. Despite the ardent hopes of many websites of the Loon Right, you do not come down with exotic diseases, or any diseases, by eating in restaurants. Schooling increases. Common is a mother, age forty with ten siblings, who has two children, both in university or tech schools. None of this is universal, but increasingly common. This in not up there with, say, a manned landing on Mars, but it is hardly consistent with stone-age hell-holedom.

What Mexican are not, yet anyway, is driven in the sense that Americans often are. Young Mexican engineers are more so more so, but not the general population. A Mexican girl–to use an example I know–will go to dental school and then stay in her hometown, however small, marry, fix teeth, and raise children. Mexicans seem less entrepreneurial than Americans. They tend to regard a job as a way of supporting a family instead of the other way around.

There is considerable social mobility, at least around the cities. Women start businesses here, often restaurants, stores, bars, or maybe assisted-care homes in regions favored by retired Americans (e.g., Lakeside Care, down the street), but seem content with enough. “Enough” means something to them that it often does not to Americans. Whether this is good or bad can be debated, but it makes for contentedness but not commercial empires.

How will the new Mexican -American population adapt to the United States? I don’t know. Neither does anyone else, though many who know nothing about it have firm opinions. Will the government turn them into a sprawling class of welfare dependents? Doubtless if it can. Will furiously hostile anti-immigrant lobbies make them into internal enemies? They want to, and it would be the end of the US.

Or will they clamber, rapidly or otherwise, into the middle class and cease to be of much interest? The latter, I think. An intelligent policy would be to encourage them, but we can do it anyway. They are pretty good people, not given to terrorism or mutilating their daughters or the knockout game, and they burn a minimum of cities. Everywhere I have been–LA, San Fran, DC, Huston, San Antonio, Pilsen and Berwyn in Chicago–they have seemed to be settling peacefully in. They have the potential to make it. We had better hope they get there.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/11/...wroth-knowing/

[Ender]

$2,830 Appendectomy in Mexico

By David Hathaway

November 30, 2017

My son had an attack of appendicitis late Saturday night. I knew that the Obamacare inflated prices for surgery in the U.S. would be ridiculous and that the service would likely be impersonal, involve long waits, and be nerve-wracking. I have friends in the medical field so I inquired just for grins. The price for the latest routine appendectomy in my area was, my jaw dropped, $43,000. I read on-line that the average cost for an appendectomy in the U.S. is $33,000. I am not near some of the great direct-pay medical facilities in the U.S. like the Surgery Center of Oklahoma, but I am near Mexico. I chose that option since I have often utilized foreign medical and dental facilities in the past and find the service and prices to be outstanding.

The main first rate hospitals in this part of Arizona are run by the Catholic Church. They, of course, operate under the constraints of Obamacare and other onerous U.S. rules and can’t offer pure free-market rates. So, they are pricey along with all the others.

I opted for the nearby private Catholic hospital in Mexico driving past a Catholic hospital in the U.S. en route. I also drove past the state run socialist hospital in Mexico which of course has deplorable service and doesn’t serve Americans anyway. Most of the private hospitals in Mexico have great service, modern equipment and procedures, and affordable prices. You can actually have extensive conversations with surgeons and the rest of the medical staff. They are very patient, respectful, and understanding. We arrived on a Sunday morning. This counted as an emergency after-hours visit. The fees listed below are higher because of the Sunday call-out for surgical personnel and the extra fee for the emergency room doctor that could have been avoided if I had come during normal business hours.

The emergency room doctor immediately made an assessment of my son and ordered lab work. A decision was made to perform an emergency appendectomy. The hospital called up all the necessary staff to conduct the procedure. Despite it being a Sunday, the full operating room staff was there within half an hour: Two surgeons to conduct the laparoscopic procedure, an anesthesiologist, and surgical nurses. The chief surgeon made his own assessment upon arrival and said the appendectomy was needed. He said that he would make us a CD of the operation which they always record for their records.

My son was checked into a private room with private bath and satellite TV awaiting his surgery. The surgical staff was prepped and ready to start within an hour-and-a half of our arrival. The appendix was ruptured, so extra precautions were taken to clean and flush the abdominal cavity. Since the appendix was ruptured, the chief surgeon said that my son should stay two days to receive intravenous antibiotics to prevent the development of peritonitis.

The main purpose of this article is to break down the cost of surgery at a private hospital in Mexico. It doesn’t really matter what facility you go to or what city you are in. The costs will be similar. I don’t have exclusive knowledge of some special secret hospital. If you don’t know where to go, then cross the border at your nearest crossing point and ask a taxi driver to take you and your loved one to a private hospital. You don’t need to know your way around. There are always taxis right near the border crossings. Try to get over the gringo fear that everyone will rip you off in Mexico and just go for it. Also, you can pay your bills with dollars or with your debit / credit card.

Below are the itemized costs for an appendectomy in Mexico with complications. It is higher because of the emergency attention on a Sunday. The hospital stay was for 48 hours in a private room where my wife was allowed to spend the nights with my son sleeping on a couch in his room. This cost would have been significantly less if we hadn’t incurred emergency fees and if the appendectomy had not involved complications which required a longer stay and more medication. Despite all that, I though the total price of $2,830 dollars was very reasonable.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/11/...omy-in-mexico/

[TheCount]

And who created the weak and corrupt state?

Must be the people!

Why, I can't think of a single entity that pursued a century-long policy of destabilizing strong Central and South American governments!

[Ender]

Must be the people!

Why, I can't think of a single entity that pursued a century-long policy of destabilizing strong Central and South American governments!

LOL

Time for The Mexican Fisherman Story, which explains exactly the differences in American & Mexican thinking about the priorities of life.

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “only a little while."

The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs. The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?”

The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.”

The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”

“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

[Swordsmyth]

Must be the people!

Why, I can't think of a single entity that pursued a century-long policy of destabilizing strong Central and South American governments!

I already acknowledged the role of imperial meddling but the Mexicans' ancestors had a great deal to do with how things turned out as well.

I any case it doesn't matter how their culture got where it is, what matters is that if we ever want to fix our politics and culture we can't afford to let many of them in.