Does the libertarian message move too fast for the general populace?

[ResponsibleIdiot]

As a fellow libertarian (of the paleo variety), it seems like we try to convince people of going from A to Z instead of going from A to B, then B to C, then C to D and so forth. Abolish the welfare state, abolish the income tax, private law enforcement, etc. I'm not so sure people are gonna go for that, not because they're can't expand their minds to think of such things, but because......they're sensible. The cure is dosage dependent. In other words, two tylenols will relieve the aches and pains, but 50 might kill you. We can abolish the welfare state, but unless the underlying culture gets abolished at the same time, it won't work out and we would immediately have a revolution on our hands.

Why don't we just get on board with people who are moving in the right direction and push it a little further instead of taking it to damn near an-cap? As a way to not alienate people we mostly agree with.

Here's what I've learned as a former alcoholic/drug-addict. We didn't get into this problem overnight and won't get out of it overnight. No serious drug user quits using and immediately has his life transformed. It takes years usually. Sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, but it doesn't happen right away. Freedom in the US eroded over centuries. We won't make a dent with a few elections. Why don't we play the long game? Because I'm thinking that getting anywhere near free markets and personal liberty will take generations. Even if states were to peacefully secede, I know that they are going to carry a ton of baggage with them and not all of it will be good. Cultural rot has infected every level of this country.

I was just thinking about the black community. I personally think that most of their problems come from a 70% illegitimacy rate. Even if starting today, every black woman having a child also has a man willing to actually stay and raise the child, it would still be a full generation before the real change comes. Yet it seems that the black "leaders" are demanding change NOW. Even if they got everything they wanted in the next presidency, I would be willing to bet everything I have that not much would change. The same root problems would still be there.

The obsession with immediate gratification infects the culture we live in today. I don't think libertarians are immune. Our Marxist nemeses may have outsmarted and outworked us liberty loving folks.

[Matt Collins]

As a fellow libertarian (of the paleo variety), it seems like we try to convince people of going from A to Z instead of going from A to B, then B to C, then C to D and so forth.

If you're trying to win an election then you don't need to convince anyone of anything, you simply need to find the people who agree with you and get them to vote for your guy.

Abolish the welfare state, abolish the income tax, private law enforcement, etc. I'm not so sure people are gonna go for that, not because they're can't expand their minds to think of such things, but because......they're sensible. The cure is dosage dependent. In other words, two tylenols will relieve the aches and pains, but 50 might kill you. We can abolish the welfare state, but unless the underlying culture gets abolished at the same time, it won't work out and we would immediately have a revolution on our hands.

Yeah probably true.

Why don't we just get on board with people who are moving in the right direction and push it a little further instead of taking it to damn near an-cap? As a way to not alienate people we mostly agree with.

Sounding good.

We didn't get into this problem overnight and won't get out of it overnight. No serious drug user quits using and immediately has his life transformed. It takes years usually. Sometimes quickly sometimes slowly, but it doesn't happen right away. Freedom in the US eroded over centuries. We won't make a dent with a few elections. Why don't we play the long game? Because I'm thinking that getting anywhere near free markets and personal liberty will take generations. Even if states were to peacefully secede, I know that they are going to carry a ton of baggage with them and not all of it will be good. Cultural rot has infected every level of this country.

I believe the federal government to be a complete lost cause. It's possible for people like Rand and Thomas to nibble around the edge, but there will likely not be any significant change on the federal level. State and local levels of government is where it is at.

You're right though. The government is a 1000 story building and the plans on call for it to be a 10 story building. The first thing we have to do to get it back down to size is stop building. Then we can begin to reshape it back down to its correct size (assuming it doesn't collapse under its own weight first -- which it probably will)

Our Marxist nemeses may have outsmarted and outworked us liberty loving folks.

Duh. People refuse to learn how to win and then refuse to actually do what is necessary to win. I've seen it more times than I can remember. The defeatist attitude of "well we cant do anything so we might as well go live in a bunker" or "voting legitimizes the system" or whatever such nonsense gets spewed is why, at least on a state and local level, that our rarely move the ball in our direction.

[Swordsmyth]

+Rep

[Anti Globalist]

Hard for libertarians to win on any front considering the majority of the American people don't like freedom.

[Swordsmyth]

Hard for libertarians to win on any front considering the majority of the American people don't like freedom.

Which is why they must be led back to it step by step.

[ResponsibleIdiot]

Hard for libertarians to win on any front considering the majority of the American people don't like freedom.

Which is why they must be led back to it step by step.

Well, yeah. Same way a parent doesn't let their kid loose into the world at 5 years old. Parents teach their kids how to be self sufficient and responsible (at least they used to) then in the late teens they are ready to take on the world. A free society means the vast majority of people need life lessons. That's where culture comes in and that's why I keep pushing the cultural approach to introducing libertarianism.

Cultural transformation is like the training wheels. Can't afford to not get involved in the culture game. The opposing forces have already gotten a huge head start. And they are so effective that....

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...orters-(Again)

[pcosmar]

Perhaps seeing from different perspectives..

The Error of Nimrod (following leaders) has been around for a long time.
some can't imaging life without "authorities" to tell them what they are supposed to be doing..

[sparebulb]

Does the libertarian message move too fast for the general populace?

Yes.

Much like a dog watching television.

The majority of 'murikans now are deficient in personal responsibility, literacy, morality, and useful education to make a living for themselves with a sense of dignity and pride.

It is hard for a society to bootstrap itself up from this deficit.

[ResponsibleIdiot]

Perhaps seeing from different perspectives..

The Error of Nimrod (following leaders) has been around for a long time.
some can't imaging life without "authorities" to tell them what they are supposed to be doing..

Yes, and there are always going to be natural hierarchies. Which is why I'm not an an-cap anymore, especially after I started reading Taleb. I think a small level of governance is always going to be present, and it would be suicide to be in an an-cap society when there are aspiring nationalistic superpowers in the world. I basically want whatever authority there is to be as close to their constituents as possible, and for them to tell people to take care of themselves and make the vast majority of their own decisions.

[Working Poor]

well when are schools and the media going to start reprogramming the public to take responsibility for their own lives and stop depending on government? I'll tel you when:

Never

[ResponsibleIdiot]

well when are schools and the media going to start reprogramming the public to take responsibility for their own lives and stop depending on government? I'll tel you when:

Never

Not with the school system we have now. Obviously. School choice would be better. Private schools could be better. Religious schools could be better. There is no other option for many kids right now, which is a big reason why we're in the position we're in.

I'm was thinking about the Chicago Teachers Union. We have a bunch of teachers who refuse to teach in-class because they don't want their lives or their students lives (as if they cared and it was their decision) endangered. Teachers if I remember correctly tend to be on the younger side. I don't remember there being 80 year old teachers when I was in school. Plus most of them start teaching once they themselves leave school. They haven't done anything in the real world. So in other words, we have cowards and retards teaching the kids. Trust me, I have friends with kids in the public schools who realize now that they weren't getting much more than a daycare center. The whole covid thing exposed them for what they are. People are waking up.

[cjm]

I believe the federal government to be a complete lost cause. It's possible for people like Rand and Thomas to nibble around the edge, but there will likely not be any significant change on the federal level. State and local levels of government is where it is at.

Completely true on FedGov. But state/local are hit and miss. California and Mass are just as much a lost cause as FedGov (undoubtedly others too). Even in "good" states, some localities are lost causes. For those still doing the electoral politics thing, pick your battles. Campaign work for a somewhat libertarian candidate in one district might be a better use of time than supporting a "pure" libertarian candidate in a lost cause district. And for those that are done with electoral politics. No worries, I get it.