Plant, you are a wacko. Such a foolish man, you claim to be lumber jack. You delusional butt wipe.Originally Posted by Swordsmyth
Your delusions are showing again, I never claimed to be a lumberjack.
Tell the nice nurse it's time for your medicine again.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
So then, no fewer countries (presumably), but also no more countries. Okay. We've achieved the optimum number of countries. And you're holding this position based on... what, exactly?
As for whether or not the US fading from the global scene would impact our lives... well... lives change all the time. Our lives are ours to live. As for whether it would impact yours? To paraphrase Rhett Butler: frankly, sir, I don't give a damn. I was not born to subsidize your security.
That is where you wrong. In the state you live in, once your home state is independent, then you need to watch your neighbors because they aren't bound by a constitution. It is easy to dream about an independent country, but the reality of changing it, would lead to other problems in the region.
And then I expressed the Irish depend on a peaceful world, so they support the world power. This is naive thinking, oh I don't give a damn. This isn't about a water problem down the road. Seriously.
And quite doubt many Americans would want to put up with the tyranny of liberty, hardship, that is the true reality of that world. It must suck to live a world where you live by authority, that means nothing to you, and you think nobody matters to you, and you think you can do just fine on your own. This is the world we live in, not a dream.
Some numbers from Mises are below. I skimmed over it, so.....
The new in vogue term, apparently, is "sovereignty referendums":
Since Massachusetts kicked off the trend in 1776, more than 630 sovereignty referendums have been held. There has been a surge in recent years, as you can see in the figure below. The 1990s alone saw a record 110 sovereignty referendums, largely because of the numerous autonomy and independence referendums triggered as the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia broke up. The 2000s saw 88 more sovereignty referendums, many related to whether the European Union should continue expanding eastward...
Why the surge? Although each referendum has its own history, we can find some general reasons. Perhaps most important, conflicts over sovereignty have proliferated. According to a recent study, since 1945 the number of ethnic movements demanding greater self-determination has increased more than tenfold. Many former colonies voted on their independence...
What’s more, when international actors intervene in nationalist conflicts they increasingly promote sovereignty referendums. For instance, in 1999 Portugal brokered a referendum in East Timor, which was administered by the United Nations. Some observers have even suggested that there is a new international norm emerging requiring referendums to legitimate territorial realignments.
https://mises.org/wire/secession-going-mainstream
Disrupt, Deny, Deflate. Read the RPF trolls' playbook here (post #3): http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...eptive-members
This is a lot of incoherent babbling that doesn't address a single point I made.
Well shoot, ya got me there. My plan calls for an end to problems, but it turns out, as you say, there would be other problems. I hadn't considered that.It is easy to dream about an independent country, but the reality of changing it, would lead to other problems in the region.
See, you said 'seriously', but the problem is that I don't think you're serious. If you are, you should try to form coherent sentences. I couldn't say what you're trying to express here if I had a decoder ring.And then I expressed the Irish depend on a peaceful world, so they support the world power. This is naive thinking, oh I don't give a damn. This isn't about a water problem down the road. Seriously.
And quite doubt many Americans would want to put up with the tyranny of liberty, hardship, that is the true reality of that world. It must suck to live a world where you live by authority, that means nothing to you, and you think nobody matters to you, and you think you can do just fine on your own. This is the world we live in, not a dream.
lol 'tyranny of liberty'. Quite a shame what's become of European thinking these days...
Sidenote, I'd resolved to try to be more understanding of contra viewpoints around here, in my limited interactions going forward. However, in my defense, I'm not sure any of this qualifies as a 'viewpoint'... so I think I'm still in good standing with regard to my resolution.
Last edited by A Son of Liberty; 10-11-2019 at 01:57 AM.
These people apparently didn't get Republicanguy's memo: NO MORE NEW COUNTRIES. Also, no fewer countries. We've achieved optimum countryness. These people should have submitted their application before the deadline. Sorry. Rules are rules.
You want to live in a world where everything falls into place, a quick fix. There isn't one.
Many countries economies and living standards would change, the smaller ones as a result of no world order by America. The Russian head of state claimed the west are the empires today. But his own country won't tolerate many movements that expand debate, and his society doesn't do democratic elections very well either, it isn't in their history. It is so recent.
No nation that has a large economy remains within its borders, sooner or later profiteering and consumption will happen, especially the latter.
Oh, I do? I didn't realize that.
Strawman much?
Well I'm very sorry to hear that. Once again, I was not born to subsidize the living standards and economies of many countries.Many countries economies and living standards would change, the smaller ones as a result of no world order by America.
Could you respond to that? Could you explain to me where I'm wrong to think that I am not obligated through coercion and the forced confiscation of my property to subsidize the economies, living standards and safety of the rest of the world?
Okay. Thanks for the info.The Russian head of state claimed the west are the empires today. But his own country won't tolerate many movements that expand debate, and his society doesn't do democratic elections very well either, it isn't in their history. It is so recent.
Am I missing something or does this have nothing at all to do with what we're "discussing"?
Again, what does this have to do with secession? Does America not trade with Canada, Great Britain, etc.? If I recall the history correctly, America seceded from the UK, yet here we are still doing business with those countries. I'm assuming (based on the above comment) that you believe that once a population secedes from a broader state it's people are going to become isolationist. Why? One of the very first things the Americans did after they seceded from GB was to establish diplomatic and economic relations with a multitude of European countries, GB included.No nation that has a large economy remains within its borders, sooner or later profiteering and consumption will happen, especially the latter.
Secession simply enables more local control of the state, which is an objective net positive for the individual. There's nothing inherently isolationist in it.
You or anyone may not like that. But you pay for Iceland's defense, do you not? How many Canadian or US Sorties over Iceland over the years.
I was thinking with Ireland's continued EU membership they may have to contribute to the EU's security, and they don't want to be a part of that. May be they have to eventually assist in that.
You are proposing Scotland go it alone, in the free market, and not be a member of the UN, I am sure. But that has real world implications for the UK. Nuclear weapons, power, influence. Just withdrawing and going it alone in the modern world of just in time deliveries to the super market, just seems crazy. What happens in one part of the world has an affect on all of us.
Burying your head is what you are doing, until the day you need assistance paid for by somebody else's dosh. It is perspective.
May be the withdrawal from Syria is nothing to anybody except those who unfortunately in that mess. But the US can't be smaller and not have some influence over the world to maintain some order, otherwise others will. In an ideal world of liberty, and property, and honestly you could live in a world being an opportunist opt out to everything doesn't affect you as you may think, but it is wrong. Just like a Texan civil war would have an affect on the neighbours and cause security problems all through the US.
This is reality.
Oohkay... that's a no, then. Sorry I wasted your and my time.
Moving on... So again I reiterate that secessionism seems like a very open piece of intellectual territory for this movement to take.
Yeah, the US keeps the trade going, you make it sound as if only the conflicts destroy everything, what would no influence look like? Sounds like you don't want to think more in depth about this problem of the world. Down the road from where I live a flooding happened, but it didn't affect me where. This is how you see the world, in the view of being an American.
You can't look at it like it is just a water pipe rupture down the road.
Your implication is that if a certain segment of the American population wishes to withdraw from the US government in order to establish a government in closer proximity to their physical being and in closer proximity to their moral center and as a consequence the US government is in some capacity less able to provide all of these ancillary "services" (e.g., "keeping trade going", security, etc.) to a host of non-citizens (all outside of the US government's charter, I might add) that they are acting unjustly somehow. You're relegating those people to a position of slavery. You understand that, don't you?
Quite right.
But this is also America's doing partly, since they want to live the drive everywhere lifestyle. And nobody can change this, or wants to, or wants to feel inconvenience. So that is one problem.
And those world problems would eventually affect those people who do want to leave from the US sphere. So it is interconnected this right there, it sucks! But that is the modern for you.
The slave admits he wants everyone else enslaved.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
You created that problem, and are a part of it.
And for your information, Iceland has a woman prime minister who is Green, her party which believes in peace and having a nice environment go hand in hand, and is against the membership of the treaty, quite rare in that country. But they are in coalition and and are the minority on that view.
It was a founding member, and never wanted to be in it.
But, it is okay to be a little island with a now 350,000 population, it was much smaller many years back. And hold such a view, when the security of the region is paid for by Canada and the US, and Britain, Italy. It is easy for any MP who is Green to express this, so long as they aren't having to put on the uniform or flight outfit to fly above their skies.
Ireland hasn't got the economy for fighter jets. They only use these since 2004. https://www.military.ie/en/who-we-ar...pilatus-pc-9m/ They had some very old jets from the 1950's for a little while in service up until about thirty years ago. But they were useless.
Unfortunately, this is reality, you want to live in a world where you don't want to be the main player, but you remove yourselves, some of you, and the puzzle falls apart, and it affects all of you.
I even sent an email to the paul institute on what are Mr Paul's in depth views on how anything he thinks can happen he would like to see, when his country maintains the order. He might like the Prime Minister of Iceland on her view alone, but perhaps not a lot else.
Last edited by Republicanguy; 10-17-2019 at 07:16 PM.
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Robert Heinlein
Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler
Groucho Marx
I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.
Linus, from the Peanuts comic
You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith
Alexis de Torqueville
Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it
A Zero Hedge comment
A poster stated that in this article from late 2016.Our location in the north Atlantic and weak transport links will not change with eirexit.
How will the exiteers raise the taxes needed from reduced trade to fund their independence? We don't fund our defence/neutrality now, the first object of any sovereign state must be to protect its citizens.
The Brits voted for Brexit on the 100th anniversary of the Somme, the USA for a wall on the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin wall. In 2016, our 100th anniversary year, lets learn from history and work to reform the EU, the largest force for good on this rapidly warming planet.
Ireland and the EU need migrants to grow, pay taxes and fund social services. I agree with other posters, I'm surprised to find myself aligned with McDowell and SF, but will vote with them to keep Ireland in the EU.
Let’s not return to the poverty of dancing at the crossroads and relying on the church for state services.
As a nation, we have failed to equip ourselves with language skills, we need to do so now; fan out across the EU to sell, lobby or work our way to reform and support the EU in this its hour of need.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...e-eu-1.2864539
I'm explaining you the reality, you don't want to accept the world around you.
Your world and mine don't exist on the same plane.
It will though the very moment you come to try and take food out of my child's mouth for one of your freeloader projects.
Stay on your side of the pond and invite a few hundred thousand of your ilk from our shores to join you.
And we're done here.
AGAIN, THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SECESSION AS A PRINCIPLE.
You're making absolutely no sense at all. None of this is any kind of an argument against why secessionism isn't a legitimate goal of the liberty movement. NONE.
lol this is too funny. So far the points made have been:
No new countries
Also no fewer countries (i.e., we've achieved optimal countryness)
Only the current number of countries (and especially the US as currently constructed) can sustain RG's pet projects of global security and trade
Those who would wish to leave the US must not be allowed to do so and are quite rightly slaves to the rest of the world (one would then assume that in RG's fevered mind, expatriation must not be allowed, either. Thus he implicitly advocates for an American police state with closed borders... or in other words, he wants America to become North Korea)
Seems legit. Thanks for your time, RG. It's been enlightening.
Yes it does, because once a US state could leave, that changes the taxes, GDP of the US. The security issues, migration. Why don't you understand that?
If Scotland was attacked and was independent, does it not concern England or Ireland's security?
Don't forget all those so called welfare projects, help all of you people. Just like a guy who called into radio show I watched months back on youtube sounded a lot like a selfish person who thinks saving a few dollars is the best way to have a cheaper education.
Did he pay for the roads he drove on? Or get help with his house or car. The selfishness and silly attitudes people have, is sad.
Some of you need a dose of your own medicine, you are being crass. So long as it doesn't affect me, that is fine, screw everybody else.
Have your democratic referendum on independence, and add in liberty, it won't go well at all.
Again this bizarre notion that we've achieved some kind of optimal balance in the number of countries, dollars available (to be plundered by other people/countries)...
I don't understand it, sir, because it is utter nonsense and is incomprehensible. You make no sense at all.
How does this sentence change in any way if York were to secede from England?If Scotland was attacked and was independent, does it not concern England or Ireland's security?
AGAIN, NOTHING TO DO WITH SECESSION (without addressing the efficacy of "welfare projects").Don't forget all those so called welfare projects, help all of you people.
And yet again, Iceland's, Ireland's, the UK's security are not my responsibility. Period.
More irrelevant gibberish...Just like a guy who called into radio show I watched months back on youtube sounded a lot like a selfish person who thinks saving a few dollars is the best way to have a cheaper education.
The unbelievable irony in the bolded sentences above and below... it's surreal...Did he pay for the roads he drove on? Or get help with his house or car. The selfishness and silly attitudes people have, is sad.
You could at least thank us for being the cash cattle in your little security scheme you cling to, you know? Instead of chastising us as "selfish".
Okay. Thanks!Some of you need a dose of your own medicine, you are being crass. So long as it doesn't affect me, that is fine, screw everybody else.
Have your democratic referendum on independence, and add in liberty, it won't go well at all.
It may not concern, just as Congolese problems don't concern myself or you. But we use their resources in our mobiles, we are all living in this interconnected mess of the world. I understand the view of wanting to live disconnected from the world, but it looks harsh, and selfish.
I don't think you can see the bigger picture, or care. I think you prefer the illusion of being able to live on an island where nothing does affect you, until it is there within close proximity where it then does.
I guess you better join an Irish forum, tell em to saddle up, and provider their own defense, even if that means sacrificing healthcare, and welfare. The NHS is apparently better than theirs, but the UK is a bigger nation, due to a union. It is unequal, in finances, but in the long run it is more secure.
Scotland has five million, they have a debt, deficit problems, that the Scottish national party can't give answers on how they would solve that with independence.
Catalonia is a wealthy part of spain, the Spanish businesses are setup there, if they were independent, Spain loses the wealth, some places pay more than others.
California has a big economy, you see my point, if you are prepared to sacrifice comfort of what you call slavery, than I guess that is you're own personal position. But many can't do this, and it has serious implications, which is obvious.
If the federal government steals from the poor states like Kansas and gives to the rich states like California, Kansans are likely to decide being part of a larger economy isn't improving their lot in life.
That's the problem with socialism. Politicians start it off like Robin Hood. Then the rich bribe them, and the next thing you know, they're stealing from the poor and giving to the rich. Do you think Kansas should put up with being treated like a colony of California?
That's what we're calling slavery--being treated like a colonist in your own heartland. It's an entirely predictable hazard of democracy.
Last edited by acptulsa; 10-21-2019 at 11:47 AM.
How did California or any bigger state get wealthy? Are you suggesting Vermont or Rhode Island could provide for themselves? Roads, all the public use. Welfare or not?
https://spectator.us/libertarians-wrong/
Interesting article on US libertarians interested in turning away from the world. Some good points.
You're just free associating now.
Kansas builds its own roads. Even the Interstates. California never, ever built so much as a city alleyway in Kansas.
At this point I can only assume that you're deliberately being obtuse. Secession has NOTHING to do with isolationism. And given your membership here you SHOULD be well acquainted with the fact that, despite the best efforts of detractors, we are NOT isolationist - we are all in favor of trade and interacting with the global markets.
I have at no point suggested that I want to live in a country that is "disconnected from the world". Secession from a larger state has no relation to isolationism.
That's quite fine, where do I join? Do you think that I would be the least bit shy telling any Irishman, even those several whom I am very good friends with (yes, an "isolationist" like me has traveled the world and have friends throughout Europe. In fact I lived in Ireland for about a half-year back in the 90's.), that their security is not my liability? Not in the least.I guess you better join an Irish forum, tell em to saddle up, and provider their own defense, even if that means sacrificing healthcare, and welfare. The NHS is apparently better than theirs, but the UK is a bigger nation, due to a union. It is unequal, in finances, but in the long run it is more secure.
Would it be just for me to demand that I live at the expense of a Scot?Scotland has five million, they have a debt, deficit problems, that the Scottish national party can't give answers on how they would solve that with independence.
"Spain" is not entitled to the product of any person's efforts.Catalonia is a wealthy part of spain, the Spanish businesses are setup there, if they were independent, Spain loses the wealth, some places pay more than others.
Goodness, why don't you think about what you're saying?
You can stand there and sound moral, but the reality is, what you propose is theory. This world is an interconnected place, the article made good points, that Libertarians have an extreme point on thinking nothing affects them personally. Secession brings these problems to your door step.
Ireland doesn't have an economy to support a proper defense.
You at least have the Icelandic leader to count on for disagreeing with being in Nato. She's a minority.
Spain may not, but they share a long history, the country setup businesses there, so they have an interest in not wanting Catalonia to go it alone. Obviously it isn't going anywhere as support for it 44%.
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