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Thread: Bring more foreign workers in, but legally

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    Should we have tried to fight the cartels and prevented Mexico from becoming a failed state?
    Eyepatch McCain? Is that you?
    That's another war we don't need but that Eyepatch McCain would love.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Eyepatch McCain? Is that you?
    That's another war we don't need but that Eyepatch McCain would love.
    A war not neccesarily.
    This from a guy who had no problem with the air strikes in Syria and no problem with the assassination of Qasem Soleimani via drone strike.

    But if we had coordinated air strikes against cartel leaders, OMG another war.
    What is a bigger threat to national security some people on the other side of the world who have a different religion than most of us? Or death dealers who happen to be our next door neighbors? And those death dealers have completely destabilized a country contributing to an immigration crisis. But if your boy Trump wanted to take out the cartels you would be all for it.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    A war not neccesarily.
    This from a guy who had no problem with the air strikes in Syria and no problem with the assassination of Qasem Soleimani via drone strike.

    But if we had coordinated air strikes against cartel leaders, OMG another war.
    What is a bigger threat to national security some people on the other side of the world who have a different religion than most of us? Or death dealers who happen to be our next door neighbors? And those death dealers have completely destabilized a country contributing to an immigration crisis. But if your boy Trump wanted to take out the cartels you would be all for it.
    We don't have troops in Mexico to protect and our embassy is not being attacked.

    I will grant you that war in Mexico is more of a national security concern than overseas but it should be a last resort far behind building the wall that you derided.

    You seem to not want to protect America but to look for excuses for wars.

    We should do everything we can to control our border and only go to war in Mexico if the cartels continue to harm our people after we have done everything else.
    I'm aware that Trump floated the idea but he didn't do it yet because he was correctly trying everything else first.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We don't have troops in Mexico to protect and our embassy is not being attacked.

    I will grant you that war in Mexico is more of a national security concern than overseas but it should be a last resort far behind building the wall that you derided.

    You seem to not want to protect America but to look for excuses for wars.

    We should do everything we can to control our border and only go to war in Mexico if the cartels continue to harm our people after we have done everything else.
    I'm aware that Trump floated the idea but he didn't do it yet because he was correctly trying everything else first.
    I want you to dissect every one of my sentences in this thread and point out where I say I want a war. I'm asking questions or putting out scenarios.

    You got me on the wall idea. Building a wall is the most basic boomer arguement I can think of off the top of my head. What is the point of building a wall? Once they are here nothing happens to them. In your dream world we have a wall then what? Armed guards every 50 meters with shoot to kill orders? A swarm of people would rush the wall and climb over and if any guard shot them. Front page news across the world. The people rushing the fence would use children as human shields.
    Is a wall really enough for you? Do you actually want a DMZ on the border? Yet you are most likely one of those people who rant about a police state.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We could have built a wall and put the military on the border, we could have kept immigration at a trickle, we could have kept tariffs and ever opened up trade with communist slave labor countries.

    We could have expelled the commies who were already here.
    Like a busted clock, the news is right twice per day.

    I wondered what in the hell they were yapping about concerning White Supremacists.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Like a busted clock, the news is right twice per day.

    I wondered what in the hell they were yapping about concerning White Supremacists.
    And the AntiFa exposes himself.
    Point to one word about race in my post.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    I want you to dissect every one of my sentences in this thread and point out where I say I want a war. I'm asking questions or putting out scenarios.

    You got me on the wall idea. Building a wall is the most basic boomer arguement I can think of off the top of my head. What is the point of building a wall? Once they are here nothing happens to them. In your dream world we have a wall then what? Armed guards every 50 meters with shoot to kill orders? A swarm of people would rush the wall and climb over and if any guard shot them. Front page news across the world. The people rushing the fence would use children as human shields.
    Is a wall really enough for you? Do you actually want a DMZ on the border? Yet you are most likely one of those people who rant about a police state.
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    You again present your option of a war as the only viable option and act as if deportations and patrols don't exist.

    How many children will die in your military operation against the cartels? don't pretend they won't use human shields either.

    You are the one siding with the Neocons who want a police state and endless wars.
    You also advocate bringing in more foreign barbarians to increase the crime rate and the need for a police state to control them and Americans.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Like a busted clock, the news is right twice per day.

    I wondered what in the hell they were yapping about concerning White Supremacists.
    @Bryan since it seems that the mods have let the insults get out of control and rarely do anything when the posts are reported I suggest you do something or declare open season so all sides get to engage in them with no punishment.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    @Bryan since it seems that the mods have let the insults get out of control and rarely do anything when the posts are reported I suggest you do something or declare open season so all sides get to engage in them with no punishment.
    Maybe when the rest of us combined catch up to the number of insults you've lobbed at us, such measures might be called for. But that might take three more years or so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Maybe when the rest of us combined catch up to the number of insults you've lobbed at us, such measures might be called for. But that might take three more years or so.
    LOL
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL
    How many people have you accused of voting for Clinton and/or Biden? Taking your shoes off won't help. You don't have anywhere near enough fingers and toes.

    The things you said to Glen Bradley alone outweigh everything PAF and I have said to you combined by at least a factor of four.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    How many people have you accused of voting for Clinton and/or Biden? Taking your shoes off won't help. You don't have anywhere near enough fingers and toes.

    The things you said to Glen Bradley alone outweigh everything PAF and I have said to you combined by at least a factor of four.
    Please stop, my sides are aching.

    I never insulted Glen, he chose to take something I said about the source of a claim and apply it to himself.

    You and your gang can't control yourselves even when the mods finally wake up and issue direct orders to you to stop.
    Any one of you alone has me beat by miles and not just with insults to me.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I never insulted Glen, he chose to take something I said about the source of a claim and apply it to himself.
    The Ministry of Truth strikes again.

    The members of this forum have longer than average memories. You can't just airbrush Beria out of the picture here.

    How many more women were active here before you wages war on them?

    Keep trying to spin your sorry history here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The Ministry of Truth strikes again.

    The members of this forum have longer than average memories. You can't just airbrush Beria out of the picture here.

    How many more women were active here before you wages war on them?

    Keep trying to spin your sorry history here.

    LOL

    You making things up in your head doesn't change reality.
    And learn to make your own talking points, recycling the left's stale lies about a "war on women" is just lazy.

    I'm on very good terms with most of the women here and those who left did so for other reasons, there was no "war".
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    I'm on very good terms with most of the women here...
    donnay is not most of the women here, despite your concerted efforts to make her the only one left.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    donnay is not most of the women here, despite your concerted efforts to make her the only one left.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    LOL
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post




    This guy's the whole administration rolled up in one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    You again present your option of a war as the only viable option and act as if deportations and patrols don't exist.

    How many children will die in your military operation against the cartels? don't pretend they won't use human shields either.

    You are the one siding with the Neocons who want a police state and endless wars.
    You also advocate bringing in more foreign barbarians to increase the crime rate and the need for a police state to control them and Americans.
    Calling people "foreign barbarians" how evangelical christian of you.
    Legal and illegal immigrants actually commit less crimes than native born individuals.

    https://reason.com/2021/05/13/immigr...orn-americans/

    Is Reason Magazine communist propaganda?



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  23. #49
    Let's bring more garbage into our country, but legally
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    Calling people "foreign barbarians" how evangelical christian of you.
    Legal and illegal immigrants actually commit less crimes than native born individuals.

    https://reason.com/2021/05/13/immigr...orn-americans/

    Is Reason Magazine communist propaganda?
    TReason Magazine is Globalist propaganda and that claim about crime is a joke.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    TReason Magazine is Globalist propaganda and that claim about crime is a joke.
    Reason magazine is globalist propaganda. What information do you have to back up such a claim other than your feelings? Any peer reviewed journals?
    Do you have any statistics or studies to refute the fact that illegal and legal immigrants commit less crimes?

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    Reason magazine is globalist propaganda. What information do you have to back up such a claim other than your feelings? Any peer reviewed journals?
    Do you have any statistics or studies to refute the fact that illegal and legal immigrants commit less crimes?
    Swordy doesn't get it and never will.

    Selling a cigarette on the street for a quarter is illegal.
    Providing "personal" services to another consenting individual is illegal.
    Having a beer toking after a hard week of work is illegal.
    Crossing the street diagonally when nobody else is around is illegal.
    Taking a leak in a dark alley because there are no restrooms for the next 5 miles is illegal.
    Making a U-turn when the coast is clear, so that you don't waste more gas driving another 15-20 miles -each way-, is illegal.
    Hiding your gun under your shirt without paid permission so that you don't alarm others is illegal.
    Simply walking across non-private land without papers please and tax-paid holding cells is illegal.

    Swordy doesn't follow the money. If he/she did, he/she would quickly see that the USSA has looted more money and killed more humans throughout the world than all individual humans combined.

    And I'll bet Swordy didn't know that William Bradford was very, very wealthy along with other colonists who were silver/gold rich, yet raped and stole from Indians, blacks and anybody else they could profit by. Because like I said, he/she would have to follow the money.

    Poor and Middle Class people try to make ends meet. It doesn't matter what country of origin or what religion they are. And as wealth and power increases, when they feel that a threshold has been met, "absolute power corrupts absolutely". But that is no reason for me or you to sacrifice our freedoms in exchange for their security.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    @Bryan since it seems that the mods have let the insults get out of control and rarely do anything when the posts are reported I suggest you do something or declare open season so all sides get to engage in them with no punishment.
    Not all reports are acted upon. Sometimes they might not be seen for a while.

    That being said, everyone should stop with personal insults, stick to debating issues, and try not to derail the thread or go off the thread topic. A lot of posts in this thread are off-topic and/or personal sniping.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Not all reports are acted upon. Sometimes they might not be seen for a while.

    That being said, everyone should stop with personal insults, stick to debating issues, and try not to derail the thread or go off the thread topic. A lot of posts in this thread are off-topic and/or personal sniping.
    Gee, I wonder how that started..?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Eyepatch McCain? Is that you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    And the AntiFa exposes himself.
    Point to an earlier incident.

    Remind anyone else of the kid who smacks his brother, gets a black eye for his trouble, and runs to show it to mommy?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 09-25-2022 at 12:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    donnay is not most of the women here, despite your concerted efforts to make her the only one left.
    I have no issue with him either. So, that's at least two.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Gee, I wonder how that started..?

    Point to an earlier incident.
    ...
    Eyepatch McCain is well known to refer to Dan Crenshaw, who is not a member here, but has been in the news recently calling for war on Mexican drug cartels.

    Your example was a direct response to someone inferring that he was a “white supremacist”. Thus it was a response to an insult.

    The point is still the same, everyone needs to stay on topic and avoid the personal insults.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    Bring more workers in, but do it legally. This is a talking point I always see conservatives talking about.

    That is happening and I have firsthand knowledge. I have a coworker who is of Mexican decent. His mom works at Tyson in Dakota City, NE. Apparently they had a raffle at Tyson. If you were one of the people whose name got picked. You get to pick 5 people you know from Mexico or wherever and Tyson will get those people papers so they can at Tyson. My coworker's uncle is moving up here now. In Mexico he built houses now he has to come up here and do knife work on the line to me that is a waste of the guy's talent.

    Back in the day a story like this would have angered me. I'm actually kind of ashamed of my old ways. I honestly don't have a problem with this anymore, and if I did have a problem so what just a waste of my energy.

    People against foreign workers do you know most companies are on the brink of mission failure? I can only speak for where I work and people I know, but anyway. The company where I work can't get new people. Some of our workers have been felons who lasted a couple of weeks and a couple of weeks later you see they are wanted by US Marshalls. Others think they are slick doing drugs and drinking at work. One of our newest employees is a serial arsonist just released after serving 1.5 years on a 5 year sentence. Same guy walks around talking to himself.

    It would be different if the job was terrible and we didn't make anything, but the pay is good. I have 2 cars, 2 motorcycles, and a house. People just don't want to work. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would rather work with illegal immigrants or foreigners on papers than some of my current coworkers. I honestly have more in common with some latin american as an Irish Catholic than some drugged out, video game playing, porn addict, zombie which in my experience is most americans.

    Feel free to totally sh!t on me, trash me, or whatever. None of what I wrote above matters it is already over. Even in a place like Nebraska it is too late. What do I know?
    If welfare would be ended, there would be plenty of workers here.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    Calling people "foreign barbarians" how evangelical christian of you.
    Legal and illegal immigrants actually commit less crimes than native born individuals.

    https://reason.com/2021/05/13/immigr...orn-americans/

    Is Reason Magazine communist propaganda?
    Once upon a time, many, many members here seemed to consider CATO and anything funded by the Koch Brothers very far from anything liberty-loving. Reason magazine seems to be getting a substantial chunk of money from the Koch Brothers.

    "Funding and partners
    As a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, Reason Foundation is supported by donations and sale of its publications. According to 2012 disclosures, its largest donors were the David H. Koch Charitable Foundation ($1,522,212) and the Sarah Scaife Foundation ($2,016,000)."

    Not making a judgement here; just trying to add to the discussion.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Once upon a time, many, many members here seemed to consider CATO and anything funded by the Koch Brothers very far from anything liberty-loving. Reason magazine seems to be getting a substantial chunk of money from the Koch Brothers.

    "Funding and partners
    As a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, Reason Foundation is supported by donations and sale of its publications. According to 2012 disclosures, its largest donors were the David H. Koch Charitable Foundation ($1,522,212) and the Sarah Scaife Foundation ($2,016,000)."

    Not making a judgement here; just trying to add to the discussion.
    There are articles on Lew Rockwell that I disagree with. I guess stay in the loop, follow the money, but don't let your guard down.
    ____________

    An Agorist Primer ~ Samuel Edward Konkin III (free PDF download)

    The End of All Evil ~ Jeremy Locke (free PDF download)

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Eyepatch McCain is well known to refer to Dan Crenshaw, who is not a member here, but has been in the news recently calling for war on Mexican drug cartels.
    Yes, and adding, "...is that you?" is clear name calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Your example was a direct response to someone inferring that he was a “white supremacist”. Thus it was a response to an insult.
    Quote Originally Posted by mtr1979 View Post
    This is a great conversation. I started this thread with a weary heart. I hate to be blackpilled, but I actually leave my house everyday and experience the real world. I get the sense that we are accelerating to the crash.

    I'm actually surprised someone didn't drop into the thread and say build a wall.

    I can honestly say we are past the point of no return.
    With that said what could we have done to prevent it?
    Did we lose our connection with God?
    Could we have prevented cultural marxists from infiltrating our Institutions?
    Should we have ended the drug war?
    Should we have tried to fight the cartels and prevented Mexico from becoming a failed state?
    Don't see it. Also don't see a response to the other example I quoted. Or is this what you're referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by PAF View Post
    Like a busted clock, the news is right twice per day.

    I wondered what in the hell they were yapping about concerning White Supremacists.
    Admittedly I lost track of the conversation enough to be unsure who "they" was. But I still don't see it.

    Is it true that somebody is waging a negrep war against PAF?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 09-25-2022 at 01:27 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

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