I think they're right on the mark. Mrs. AF bought the book too. Check it out and tell me what you think.Originally Posted by Anti Federalist
And while we're on the subject, sort of, can you or someone explain to me the difference between a voluntaryist and a sovereign citizen?
Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.
Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine
"I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."
This, of course, should surprise nobody. I cannot recall, but I may have even predicted this tactic.
Theye knew they were not going to win then and there, so they bided their time to pick the resisters off, one by one.
That is how it's done.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
This is a quick brief I jotted down while watching the conference as referenced in the thread...http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...016-quot/page9
In brief....
Only 8 shots. 6 State troopers. 2 FBI. Not 100's as reported by Cox and Victoria.
Justified and necessary.
1 less than lethal shot was fired before Payne exited . Payne exited. Cox began recording.
Trooper fired 3 shots as his vehicle approached roadblock. Speeding truck considered "dangerous weapon." Justified. 2 shots by FBI agent as Finicum exited. 9mm found in left side interior pocket. Gift from a relative. Reaches for his pocket twice and is not shot yet. Refused orders twice, then a third. Reaches again and shot 3 times by the two officers behind him. Trooper by woods had a taser.
The FBI/HRT shot twice as he exited the vehicle. 3 bullets in torso entering his back by OSP troopers. All shots by OSP Justified.
4 distinct bullet holes in truck. 3 into the front (Troopers). One in the roof (HRT).
HRT operators fired 2 shots as Finicum exited truck (still under investigation). Neither hit Finicum.
HRT operators did not disclose shots. Ongoing investigation into the HRT shots.
Q&A:
Shawna Cox complete video will be released later.
No question as to authenticity of FBI videos. No manipulation.
Won't release names of officers involved for their safety.
No idea of number of non-lethal rounds. ( My personal belief is this is what Cox and Shawna may have been referring to. p4p)
Didn't communicate stop w/ Grant county Sheriff.
Office of Inspector General will investigate HRT shots.
Conference ends.
ETA: Coroners report showed three wounds. All in back. One on lower right side just above waist level. Two in upper back left shoulder and left/center of neck/spine. IIRC.
Last edited by phill4paul; 03-08-2016 at 01:50 PM.
First youtube out. Not complete from the beginning....
“For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:”
SMDH
http://glenbradley.net/share/aleksan...nitsyn_4-t.gif “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?... The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If...if...We didn't love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation.... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
It's no doubt that LaVoy felt he was under fire from the time he left the initial stop. Because he was. From the admitted non-lethal round at the initial stop. The three shots into the vehicle as he approached the road block. Then the two shots by the HRT operator as he exited the vehicle with his hands up. What is a man supposed to do when he is being fired upon? I have no doubt that LaVoy was trying to draw fire and attention away from those in the truck. That makes him a hero to me.
This is generally the starting point where sovereigns go off the tracks. Their whole belief system is based on misinterpretation of the content or relevance of certain claims they use to build their ideology. When they get into citations, often they are incorrect or irrelevant after many generations of OCR and copypasters.
Regarding the sovereign stuff, it is sort of a morbid fascination of mine to follow their exploits, particularly in court. There are very few claims/counterclaims out there that I haven't seen, and as of now, it's no real secret where I stand on them (or "stand under").
I recommend to anyone who really wants to explore these topics, look at them from both sides, especially if it is something you are already willing to risk your property, family relationships, freedom or life. Meads v. Meads is a good place to start.
“I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul
SMMFH as well...mock trials...
pffft, if and ever when they actually end up indicted.
Just another example of how we are worse off under CONstitutional tyranny.
At least a tyrant king or autocrat goes through the motions of a trial.
Here, we bury a Mundane under an avalanche of charges, of which maybe 10 percent would actually apply or even stick before a true jury of peers, and get them to plead out to the rest.
Thus avoiding any sort of "trial" with the possibility of embarrassing "facts" coming out.
That's assuming the $#@! cops just don't kill you first.
What was the initial justification for stopping them in the first place, in a cell "dead zone" no less? Where is the truck? Let's see the condition of the truck. The Finicums initially said he was shot NINE times and were subsequently gag ordered.
Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.
Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine
"I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."
Watch this and tell me again how ANY of this was justified!
Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.
Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine
"I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."
None of it is. My brief was simply a reporting of what was being said at the conference.
The Finicums have yet to release their private autopsy. It'll be interesting to see how it matches.
It won't at all! And who knows how long they'll be gagged on it. I'm so pissed and sad.
Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.
Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine
"I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."
Okay, gotcha. My emotions are running high right now.
Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.
Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine
"I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."
Photos of LaVoy's truck and more...
http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-sta...lavoy_fin.html
There is clearly a bullet hole in the windshield. One of the first internet sleuths focused in on the point in which the windshield was impacted. And yet, no mention is made of this.
I can't find the video in which someone had enlarged and slowed down the footage, but there was a definite windshield hit as he approached. I'll have to do some searching.
OK. Found it....
Now, looking again it does not look like the windshield was pierced. So it might be possible that there was a fragment from the shot to the hood which skipped and hit. However, the hood looks like it was a penetrating shot.
It seems mighty odd that no mention of this was made.
Last edited by phill4paul; 03-09-2016 at 07:56 AM.
Also, where the hell is the body cam/vehicle cam video?
http://koin.com/2014/12/10/pros-cons...-body-cameras/Oregon State Police
Troopers are using body cameras on a limited basis, Lt. Josh Brooks said.
Right now, OSP Fish & Wildlife troopers have in-car camera plus body cameras. Most of their work is done away from the vehicle, Brooks said.
Patrol troopers wear an audio recorder that is captured on an electronic drive then placed on a DVD in the trooper’s vehicle, Brooks said. The camera in the patrol vehicle records activity in front of or near the patrol car.
“This gives us better data storage to record and maintain the hundreds of traffic stops made by troopers across the state each day,” Brooks wrote in an e-mail.
Pissin' on my leg and telling me it is raining if I'm expected to believe that an Op of this size and scope would not have been using vehicle/body cams.
Yup....
"So what we have is a bunch of folks protesting the government, then the government investigating the government protesters, and then the government accused of covering up the investigation of the government protesters, and then the government investigating their own coverup in the investigation of the government protesters," Mike Arnold (Ammon's lawyer)
did you notice where LaVoy was from? Cane beds AZ. do you know anything about the area?
it is on the opposite end of the "Arizona strip" from the Bundy Ranch....
the people of this area. have a very high regard for the CONstitution that you despise and blame for all of our current day problems.
for you to even comment on this thread is an insult to the very people who care.
you are adding insult to injury to these folks.
you should be ashamed of yourself sir.
that you have NO respect for the CONstitution is a well known fact.
why do you feel the need to insult those who support the Constitution, and are willing to take a stand for it?
"Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17. We are here and trying to be as transparent as possible. We want this to end peacefully and if it doesn't then it's only because of a lack of education on the Constitution and because there were individuals who were willing to "Just do their job" like the Nazis and kill people because an evil tyrant stood behind them and pointed the finger at us. We The People are the boss. It's time for this false illusion of the government being the boss to end. God help us all if they come in here to pick a fight. Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17. The Feds are not allowed to own or manage this land. They have zero jurisdiction here. Read it people and then call your reps and demand the Feds back off."
Clause 17:
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;--And
Last edited by HVACTech; 03-09-2016 at 05:34 PM.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
Yeah, well, I'm not, so, get bent.
The bullet that hit the roof, when LaVoy had his hands in the air...
Hands fully in the air. At this point, is there any doubt that Finicum believes he is going to be murdered? That at this point they will not even allow surrender? At this point, even if he actually went for a weapon then he is merely doing it in self-defense.
The mighty Will Grigg weighs in.
Finicum's Wake
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com...cums-wake.html
He tended herds, rather than serving the state: LaVoy Finicum, a man in full.
Somewhere there are still peoples and herds, but not with us, my brethren; here there are states….
A state is called the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies also; and this lie creepeth from its mouth: `I the state, am the people.’…
Destroyers are they who lay snares for many, and call it the state….
Nietzsche, “The New Idol,” from Thus Spake Zarathustra
The late rancher LaVoy Finicum sought to elude the state’s armed enforcers, but he wasn’t attempting to evade the law. His intent, as he explained clearly and repeatedly to OSP troopers before the lethal ambush at a roadblock on Oregon Highway 395, was to travel to John Day to meet with Grant County Sheriff Glenn Palmer, who could have taken him into custody, if just cause existed for that action.
Finicum, who nurtured a winsome if misguided faith in the Constitution, entertained the hope that Palmer might be a peace officer who was willing to act in the name of the people, rather than enforcing the will of the state.
If the objective of the FBI and the OSP on January 26 had been to arrange the peaceful arrest of Finicum and his associates, they would have reached out to Palmer. The destination of the convoy was known, as was its purpose – to convene a town hall meeting, not to commit a violent offense.
Rather than coordinating with Palmer, the FBI and the local lickspittles in uniform deliberately ignored him, and withheld any information about the plan to interdict the convoy. This is because Sheriff Palmer is seen as a “security leak” owing to his sympathies with the ranchers and other residents of his rural county who have been driven into destitution by the federal government.
Staging a combat-grade operation – spearheaded by the FBI’s official death squad, which bears the trans-Orwellian title of “Hostage Rescue Team (HRT)” – was the riskiest way to carry out an arrest. It was, however, the most effective way to exert the supposed authority of the federal government. This is also why the HRT, at some risk to the passengers in Finicum’s vehicle and the OSP officers on the ground, tried to assassinate Finicum after he attempted to run the roadblock.
Malheur County District Attorney Dan Norris (about whom I’ll have much more to say below) points out that three shots were fired by OSP officers as Finicum approached the roadblock at an estimated speed of 70 miles per hour. Three more shots were fired into the victim’s back after he exited the truck, killing him.
“In the early stages of the investigation we could not explain the fourth shot into the roof of the truck or its trajectory, given the placement of the Oregon State Police troopers at the time,” explained Norris in the March 8 press conference. “During the course of our investigation, we discovered evidence that FBI HRT operators fired two shots as Mr. Finicum exited the truck, and one shot hit the truck…. Neither of these two shots fired by HRT operators struck Mr. Finicum.”
(There's more of the military terminology. "Operators", not "assassins" - AF)
That unlawful action, which combined murderous intent with government-grade marksmanship, was compounded by the FBI’s reflexive institutional mendacity: The HRT Stormtroopers who fired the shots concealed that fact from the investigation, and their comrades joined in that conspiracy of obstruction. Norris carefully, and repeatedly, emphasized that while he found the six shots fired by the OSP to be “justified,” he was leaving the matter of the shots fired by the HRT operators in the hands of the Justice Department’s Inspector General and the Deschutes County Sheriff’s Office.
Finicum had been shot at three times while approaching the roadblock-- a fact demonstrating that combat protocols, rather than “civilian” deadly force standards, were in place. As he exited the vehicle, Finicum was nearly killed before he was given an opportunity to submit to arrest.
Much is said about the “reasonable officer” standard of deadly force, and correspondingly little attention is paid to the perceptions of those who are targeted by such force. When the HRT attempted to kill him as he exited the vehicle, Finicum – like any reasonable person – most likely assumed that his captors intended to execute him.
Although this may not have been what the OSP had in mind, it was clearly what the HRT intended.
Just as the OSP and Deschutes County Sheriff’s Office didn’t share their plans with Sheriff Palmer in Grant County, the HRT operators weren’t on the same page as the OSP troopers at the roadblock. Whether this reflects premeditation or pathological improvisation is impossible to tell at this point. The fact that the HRT operators conspired to conceal their actions argues strongly for the first possibility.
Obstructing an investigation is a felony. It will not be treated as such by the IG’s office, of course, owing to the inexhaustible privilege enjoyed by the Regime’s hired killers. If Deschutes County Sheriff Shane Nelson is burdened with dangling anatomy, he will press charges against the HRT operators who sought to conceal evidence of a clearly unlawful attempt to kill LaVoy Finicum.
Nelson, who presides over a department riven with turmoil, is up for reelection and facing two challengers. This means that he may be susceptible to local pressure to hold the HRT accountable. Like nearly every other “local” sheriff, however, Nelson is severely compromised by his office’s deep entanglement with the Feds.
Last October, Nelson placed Captain Scott Beard on “administrative leave” (that is, paid vacation) after he was accused of embezzling from the Central Oregon Drug Enforcement Team, a federally subsidized asset forfeiture soviet. Beard, the Detective Division Captain, was in charge of all transactions of the so-called CODE team, which plundered the county on the order of $100,000 or more each year.
In February, Beard was indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of stealing more than $200,000 from the forfeiture fund. If Nelson doesn't do anything to upset the Feds, this ugly business might stop with Beard.
When he finally condescended to do a media interview on the matter,Nelson told Bend NBC affiliate KTVZ that “federal authorities, who are also investigating, have asked him to keep many of the details in the missing-money case private.”
This gives Nelson a ready excuse to withhold public disclosure of details that could reveal corruption and incompetence in his office’s management of money and property that often were seized from people who had never been accused of a crime. It also gives the Feds leverage to use against him in the event that Nelson entertains ideas about prosecuting the HRT operators who tried to kill LaVoy Finicum as he exited his truck – and then obstructed the investigation into the subsequent fatal shooting.
Nelson is not the only key figure in this matter who has been severely compromised by forfeiture-related corruption.
Malheur County DA Dan Norris, chosen as special prosecutor to investigate the Finicum killing, unlawfully diverted tens of thousands of dollars in cash that had been seized by the Malheur County Sheriff’s Office from William Esbensen, the former owner of a medical marijuana co-op called the 45th Parallel in Ontario, Oregon. In 2014, Esbensen was prosecuted, and convicted, under an expired state anti-marijuana statute that was dead letter law even then.
During an April 10, 2013 County Commission meeting, according to the County Court minutes, “Mr. Norris suggested that a portion of the forfeiture funds in the task force budget could be used to assist” in paying for the services of an outside prosecutor – from Deschutes County, as it happens – named Mike Dugan.
When the Commission balked at the prospective costs of the prosecution – which seemed to increase every month – Norris invited Dugan to address the body.
Seeking to palliate their concerns, Dugan boasted that the High Desert Drug Enforcement Task Force had “recovered a number of globs of money so to speak,” including “some $53,000 in cash [that] was seized; that was subject to federal forfeiture…. I believe Sheriff [Brian] Wolfe received about 40 grand of that.” In addition, he explained, ten other people involved in the 45th Parallel had accepted settlements involving huge fines that “went into the Sheriff’s forfeiture account to help cover the costs of prosecution and investigation. I do not know the total figure of money that we’ve already recovered but I think it is in excess of … 78,000 dollars and there is still some additional opportunity to recover more.”
After the case was over, Dugan continued, it might be possible to “have more in-depth discussions about additional collections and addition use of that money to see things through and do forfeitures next year. Which I think, from a business standpoint would make sense.” (Emphasis supplied.)
Norris and Dugan were using the prospect of an immense forfeiture haul to sell a skeptical Malheur County Commission on an unnecessary and legally invalid marijuana prosecution. No adequate accounting as ever been made for the forfeiture-derived funds used to prosecute that case, and with good reason: Under the federal “equitable sharing” program, it is illegal to divert forfeiture proceeds in that fashion.
When this matter came up during the post-conviction restitution hearing, Norris sprang out of his chair as if he had suddenly discovered a cobra nesting in it and blurted out an objection. Trial Judge Gregory Baxter, offended by defense attorney Susan Gerber’s effort to examine the prosecution’s dodgy bookkeeping, gaveled the hearing to a close. Within an hour Dugan filed a motion in limine to forbid any examination “regarding the use of County General Funds,” which included the forfeiture proceeds. A week later, Judge Baxter, using a contrived rationale to justify an official cover-up, granted that motion.
In addition to the illegal transfer of forfeiture funds, Norris is implicated in the matter of a rather substantial amount of confiscated marijuana for which the county has never given an adequate accounting. The 45th Parallel case began on September 11, 2012, with raids on at least eight large marijuana grow areas. At the subsequent press conference, the confiscated marijuana was triumphantly displayed in front of the Malheur County Courthouse in Vale: The trophies filled the entire parking lot.
Rather than burning the seized weed, former MCSO Detective Brad Williams, the lead investigator, arranged for its burial at a local landfill. Photographs obtained from the sheriff’s office documented the disposal of a paltry amount of marijuana that was barely sufficient to cover a card table, let alone a parking lot. Nobody has ever explained what happened to the balance of that very profitable commodity.
Behind every great fortune there is a crime, insisted Balzac. That cynical aphorism isn’t true of private industry. It is reliably true of people who prosper in the field of law enforcement.
It is in the interest of our Federal overseers to ensure that “local” sheriffs, police, and prosecutors are deeply compromised.
The state “lies in all languages of good and evil,” observed Nietzsche, “and whatever it says is a lie, and whatever it has it has stolen. Everything in it is false; it bites with stolen teeth, and bites often. It is false down to its bowels.”
When the state bites with its stolen teeth as it did at the roadblock on Highway 395, it falls on those mired in the bowels of the beast – people like Sheriff Nelson and Dan Norris – to do the filthy work necessary to preserve the pretense of legitimacy.
you are SO awesome dude!The mighty Will Grigg weighs in.
Finicum's Wake
http://freedominourtime.blogspot.com...cums-wake.html
He tended herds, rather than serving the state: LaVoy Finicum, a man in full..
LaVoy was honoring his faith?
or, is that NOT what you meant to infer?
WHAT, do YOU know about this Mans faith sir?
(it is NOT a good idea to $#@! with me on this subject matter)
consider it to be a subject like "cavitation"
cav·i·ta·tion
ˌkavəˈtāSHən/
nounPhysics
noun: cavitation
the formation of an empty space within a solid object or body.
the formation of bubbles in a liquid, typically by the movement of a propeller through it.
why, would a purported "sailor" know anything about that?
you have been warned.
Last edited by HVACTech; 03-09-2016 at 07:56 PM.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
Could you please start another thread specifically dedicated to your haranguing of AF instead of clogging this one up?you are SO awesome dude!
LaVoy was honoring his faith?
or, is that NOT what you meant to infer?
WHAT, do YOU know about this Mans faith sir?
LaVoys faith does not matter?
what if the Man was simply following his convictions?
or.
are you afraid to learn what they were?
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
stop derailing this thread. either add to and discuss the op or leave as you are being disruptive for no good reason.LaVoys faith does not matter?
what if the Man was simply following his convictions?
or.
are you afraid to learn what they were?
The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individualsRightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas JeffersonI must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
I don't know if I'm just a shameful pussy or maybe just too stressed out lately, but I just cannot get myself to watch this.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
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