Donald of Arabia: A Disgusting Spectacle. This is the worst yet.

[Origanalist]

I certainly understand your apparent ire in the matter, but perhaps you are expecting too much of "the system", which includes all of us.

America is now bred to a will for stupidity, not to mention all the other deadly sins. Trump's ascension was at least a potential step in a better direction, if not the right one.

Once again I repeat that which bears it: none of us are likely to see anything even remotely resembling freedom in our lifetimes. Freedom, such as it may have ever existed since the first days of the republic, has been washed away in small but ever increasing stages. It's taken us 228 years to get to this point. It is not going to return to even the sad-but-better-than-this-$#@! conditions of 1789 any time soon.

Seeking purity is an error I have made in the past, but no more. That is why I will continue to support Rand Paul. He's done some rankly stoopid $#@!, but them's the breaks in politics. Not even his father is good enough, if absolute purity is the yardstick. Our ideals need to be tempered with the knowledge that we are not acting in vacuo, but rather in a sea of personalities that often conflict greatly. The choices we have are as follow: give in to the Other, go to war with the Other, or come to some mutual agreement with the Other. I categorically reject the first, am highly reticent to indulge in the second, and am therefore left with the third as the best among disappointing choices.

To be honest, I have no idea whether a concerted effort by a dedicated 3% could negotiate its way toward freedom over the course of the coming generations, but if we wish to avoid war and the disaster of political purges that come in the aftermath of revolution, then we must be prepared to devote lifetimes to regaining that which has been lost to us over 200+ years, and then to move hopefully, even closer to real freedom.

Therefore, we have the choice today of stamping our feet in tantrum at the latest outrage du jour from Trump or whomever, or we can take the thin-slice victories and build on them with more of same.

YOU are never going to be politically free - meaning that you will not be able to act freely with no threat of material consequence from arbitrarily constituted groups claiming authority over you. That is almost absolutely assured fact. The Man is going to have his boot on your neck for the rest of your life. You can try gutting him like a flounder, but that's way risky business, and even when you win, chances are middling to guaRONteed that another low-rent tyrant will replace the one you just buried under the jail. Barring a Reset Event, you and I will live out the rest of our days as slaves, albeit ones with comparatively broad latitude vis-à-vis the chattel of an age well past us. Therefore, unless you are ready to risk death to "restore" a nation whose mean population has less than zero interest in being free, you have only the choices of laying down, or negotiating your ways toward better conditions, moving forward.

Understand that Americans are nowhere nearly ready to be free. If you made America perfectly free this afternoon, by tomorrow morning disaster would already be raising its head. I am afraid that this will have to be a slow process, if vast bloodshed is to be avoided.

You write this as though I'm not keenly aware of all this already osan. Well, I am.

The choices we have are as follow: give in to the Other, go to war with the Other, or come to some mutual agreement with the Other. I categorically reject the first, am highly reticent to indulge in the second, and am therefore left with the third as the best among disappointing choices.

You made a choice I cannot.

Therefore, unless you are ready to risk death to "restore" a nation whose mean population has less than zero interest in being free, you have only the choices of laying down, or negotiating your ways toward better conditions, moving forward.

I don't see any chance of negotiation, it's submit or else. I choose not to and will undoubtedly pay the price.

[osan]

I'm not sure what you're talking about, Raimondo was backing Trump.

The OP is backing Trump? If so, then I need to check myself into a brain research institute and have myself euthanized so they can dissect my apparently very faulty thinker.

Thinking of the children...

[Origanalist]

The OP is backing Trump? If so, then I need to check myself into a brain research institute and have myself euthanized so they can dissect my apparently very faulty thinker.

Thinking of the children...

He was backing Trump during the election.

[osan]

You write this as though I'm not keenly aware of all this already osan. Well, I am.

Hey, I don't know what other people know, so I was just laying it out in case you'd not considered the points in question. That's all.

You made a choice I cannot.

But you have made a choice, and its either #1 or #3 because, so far as I can tell, you are not out there shooting the place up, which I will suggest is a good thing. We are not there quite yet, however close we may be even at this time.

I don't see any chance of negotiation, it's submit or else. I choose not to and will undoubtedly pay the price.

You may well be right on this. I am on board with you, once push comes to shove. If Theye make it clear that its submit or die, I will fight. I will not, however, toss my life into the $#@!-can casually. Time for bullets is not yet upon us and I submit that it makes all good sense to avoid that option for as long as possible. But when it becomes clear there is no hope, then one should do what one must.

[Origanalist]

Hey, I don't know what other people know, so I was just laying it out in case you'd not considered the points in question. That's all.



But you have made a choice, and its either #1 or #3 because, so far as I can tell, you are not out there shooting the place up, which I will suggest is a good thing. We are not there quite yet, however close we may be even at this time.



You may well be right on this. I am on board with you, once push comes to shove. If Theye make it clear that its submit or die, I will fight. I will not, however, toss my life into the $#@!-can casually. Time for bullets is not yet upon us and I submit that it makes all good sense to avoid that option for as long as possible. But when it becomes clear there is no hope, then one should do what one must.

I'm not out there shooting anyone. I simply do everything in my power sans that to not submit, nor do I expect to ever negotiate any liberty from the denizens of this nuthouse. I just live my life as though they have no power over me as best I can even though they will ultimately imprison me for it.

Oh yeah, and taxation is theft.

[osan]

He was backing Trump during the election.

I gathered that from the progression of the thread. I was speaking solely about the OP. I don't know this Raimondo much and can only go by what I read. The OP is a load of cheap nonsense. I cannot say I'm a fan of arming the Saudis, but my understanding is that Trump has gotten concessions in return - whatever that might mean in real terms. Supposedly the king has promised to "take care of" the Wahhabis. I thought the king was one of those, so as usual I stand completely confused. Could be Trump is selling us out with all this... or that I'm just not smart enough. I don't know, so all I can do is sit back and watch as things unfold. My expectations remain low, if nevertheless far higher than they would have been for DragSatan. Trump's net results at the end of his tenure may prove sub-clinically better than those of DragSatan, had she been elected. I'm hoping for better than that, but really... what are the chances of it? But if at the end of it I prove a good candidate for the new Village Idiot, I will happily accept the appellation. The condition of my sphincter after 4 or 8 years of a DragSatan administration is well known. Therefore, I see myself as having nothing to lose with Trump. He cannot be worse because DragSatan defines "bottom of the barrel".

[Origanalist]

I gathered that from the progression of the thread. I was speaking solely about the OP. I don't know this Raimondo much and can only go by what I read. The OP is a load of cheap nonsense. I cannot say I'm a fan of arming the Saudis, but my understanding is that Trump has gotten concessions in return - whatever that might mean in real terms. Supposedly the king has promised to "take care of" the Wahhabis. I thought the king was one of those, so as usual I stand completely confused. Could be Trump is selling us out with all this... or that I'm just not smart enough. I don't know, so all I can do is sit back and watch as things unfold. My expectations remain low, if nevertheless far higher than they would have been for DragSatan. Trump's net results at the end of his tenure may prove sub-clinically better than those of DragSatan, had she been elected. I'm hoping for better than that, but really... what are the chances of it? But if at the end of it I prove a good candidate for the new Village Idiot, I will happily accept the appellation. The condition of my sphincter after 4 or 8 years of a DragSatan administration is well known. Therefore, I see myself as having nothing to lose with Trump. He cannot be worse because DragSatan defines "bottom of the barrel".

Lol,either way the sphincter suffers.

[osan]

I'm not out there shooting anyone.

Good to hear it.

I simply do everything in my power sans that to not submit

That's why I illegally carried a .45 SIG in NYC for 20 years. I refused to be corralled and de-balled by the vermin.

nor do I expect to ever negotiate any liberty from the denizens of this nuthouse.

Well, I wasn't speaking of you doing so singly on your lonesome. I did refer to a "3%" - a notion to which I foolishly cleave for fear of despair, were I to admit to myself that it ain't likely to happen. A 3% brigade on the same page WRT the basics, as well as objectives, could be a very strong influencing factor. The reason why we are so hosed is that there IS no 3%. Not even 2 or 1. Theye have very successfully fractured us into mutually suspicious and hating factions, leaving Themme in perfect trim, and the rest of us as $#@!ed as a Parisian whore after doing three back-to-back shifts at Mdme. 'Orr's House of Sin on Armistice Day weekend.

I just live my life as though they have no power over me as best I can

Precisely what I have been doing since about 1974. $#@! 'em.

even though they will ultimately imprison me for it.

Not me. When it comes to that, I hope and pray I have the courage to do what I must. That, of course, remains to be seen and further remains what is perhaps the biggest doubt I hold about myself: whether I will have the requisite courage, or will I fold like a cheap suit when the tacks show the brass of which they are fashioned.

Oh yeah, and taxation is theft.

ROBBERY, actually.

[juleswin]

I gathered that from the progression of the thread. I was speaking solely about the OP. I don't know this Raimondo much and can only go by what I read. The OP is a load of cheap nonsense. I cannot say I'm a fan of arming the Saudis, but my understanding is that Trump has gotten concessions in return - whatever that might mean in real terms. Supposedly the king has promised to "take care of" the Wahhabis. I thought the king was one of those, so as usual I stand completely confused. Could be Trump is selling us out with all this... or that I'm just not smart enough. I don't know, so all I can do is sit back and watch as things unfold. My expectations remain low, if nevertheless far higher than they would have been for DragSatan. Trump's net results at the end of his tenure may prove sub-clinically better than those of DragSatan, had she been elected. I'm hoping for better than that, but really... what are the chances of it? But if at the end of it I prove a good candidate for the new Village Idiot, I will happily accept the appellation. The condition of my sphincter after 4 or 8 years of a DragSatan administration is well known. Therefore, I see myself as having nothing to lose with Trump. He cannot be worse because DragSatan defines "bottom of the barrel".

I don't get posts like this, you claim you don't know much about the OP author, not a fan of the Saudi, have no idea what concessions they made, completely confused, not sure if Trump is a sell out or not except for the fact that you should sit back and watch. But somehow without knowing much about anything concerning the situation, you know that the OP is a load of cheap nonsense, the king would take care of the Wahhabi (which is like ISIS promising you that they would take care of the extremists.), and that Trump would be better than her best buddy Hillary.

This makes no sense.

[Origanalist]

Good to hear it.



That's why I illegally carried a .45 SIG in NYC for 20 years. I refused to be corralled and de-balled by the vermin.



Well, I wasn't speaking of you doing so singly on your lonesome. I did refer to a "3%" - a notion to which I foolishly cleave for fear of despair, were I to admit to myself that it ain't likely to happen. A 3% brigade on the same page WRT the basics, as well as objectives, could be a very strong influencing factor. The reason why we are so hosed is that there IS no 3%. Not even 2 or 1. Theye have very successfully fractured us into mutually suspicious and hating factions, leaving Themme in perfect trim, and the rest of us as $#@!ed as a Parisian whore after doing three back-to-back shifts at Mdme. 'Orr's House of Sin on Armistice Day weekend.



Precisely what I have been doing since about 1974. $#@! 'em.



Not me. When it comes to that, I hope and pray I have the courage to do what I must. That, of course, remains to be seen and further remains what is perhaps the biggest doubt I hold about myself: whether I will have the requisite courage, or will I fold like a cheap suit when the tacks show the brass of which they are fashioned.



ROBBERY, actually.

Truthfully, I really don't know what I will do when this all comes to head. And you're correct about the fracturing of the various aligned opposition. We're at each others throats. The rats are smiling.

[osan]

I don't get posts like this, you claim you don't know much about the OP author, not a fan of the Saudi, have no idea what concessions they made, completely confused, not sure if Trump is a sell out or not except for the fact that you should sit back and watch. But somehow without knowing much about anything concerning the situation, you know that the OP is a load of cheap nonsense, the king would take care of the Wahhabi (which is like ISIS promising you that they would take care of the extremists.), and that Trump would be better than her best buddy Hillary.

This makes no sense.

You were doing OK up to the bolded section.

I know a hit piece when I read one. I did NOT say I knew the King would take care of the Wahhabis. Very much the opposite, in fact. I very explicitly voiced my reservations as you can see if you re-read the bit about the King being Wahhabi himself, yes?

Finally, I nowhere wrote Trump would be better than dragSatan, but only that he could be no worse, and I stand by it.

[osan]

Lol,either way the sphincter suffers.

The most likely case, yes.

[Peace Piper]

For those who are trying to paint Raimondo as some kind of Trump sycophant:

What Is To Be Done?
How to build a new anti-interventionist movement

by Justin Raimondo, October 31, 2016

In the midst of an election in which the issues are largely ignored in favor of sensationalism and smears, the anti-interventionist voter is pretty much at sea. Hillary Clinton’s demagogic Russia-baiting of Trump as a Kremlin “puppet” augurs a foreign policy that will take us back to the arctic winter of the cold war, circa 1950. On the other hand, the GOP nominee, for all his encouraging “America first” rhetoric and his stated unwillingness to get into another arms race with the former Soviet Union, would likely take us into other quagmires – ISIS, China, Iran – and, in any event, cannot be trusted.

So what is to be done?

The first thing is to disabuse yourself of the notion that any politician or political party currently prominent will magically get us out of the business of Empire. This isn’t to say that political action is wrong, or ineffective – far from it. What I’m saying is that it is up to us to build a movement out of which a new politics of peace and liberty can be nurtured and brought to maturity.

Our second task is to take stock of our assets: what kind of shape is the anti-interventionist movement in, and what are our prospects for future growth?

The first part of that question is easily answered: there is no anti-interventionist movement, as such, and there hasn’t been for quite some time. Oh sure, there are scattered organizations and individuals with a public platform, but none of these have a truly national presence.

Yes, Antiwar.com is one such voice with not insignificant reach, but we aren’t an organization – we’re a web site. We don’t have chapters, support groups, members, etc., and have quite deliberately avoided setting up any such network for the simple reason that we don’t have the resources to do so. Every movement has different components that specialize in various functions, and our specialty is education. That is, we give our readers the information they need in order to understand the problem, but as far as acting to eliminate the problem – that’s a mission we must leave to others.

The big problem is that there are no “others” – no action groups, no lobbyists, no real grassroots organizations that can respond to events as they occur, and mobilize the public against the War Party. The “movement,” such as it is, is top-heavy with thinktanks – the Cato Institute, the Center for the National Interest, the Ron Paul Institute, and the newly-organized student-oriented John Quincy Adams Society come to mind – and sorely lacking at the grassroots: essentially, a head with no body...snip

...snip...

...It can be done. It must be done. But will it be done? I can’t answer that question: what I can say is that you, my readers, have the power to do it. Now, if only you have the will. Full Article: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2...is-to-be-done/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are no doubt more examples and I'll try to dig them up later. Raimondo has told more people about the criminal foreign policy of the US Government than most anyone busy posting away on an internet forum that largely preaches to the choir, and he's been doing it for over 20 years.

Question for the Raimondo detractors: Did you complain about Rand Paul's lies about Iran and Crimea? Those were more serious than any column by Justin, weren't they? Note that the Iran link is a link to a Raimondo column. Who else told you about this lie?

[juleswin]

Why I Didn’t Vote for Trump
And why I’m cheering on the movement he created

by Justin Raimondo, May 27, 2016
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I’ve written a lot about Donald Trump in this space, basically arguing that his views signify a sea change in the foreign policy discourse in this country. His rise, I’ve averred, augurs the end of the neoconservatives as a viable political force within the GOP, and the beginning of an “isolationist” (i.e. anti-interventionist) trend in American politics that will upend the Establishment of both parties.

So why didn’t I vote for him when I had the chance?

I have to admit I was sorely tempted: the opportunity to make Bill Kristol a very unhappy man was almost too much to pass up. And yet, in the end, when I got my mail ballot, and I sat down and looked at it, I just couldn’t bring myself to do it for a very simple reason: the man isn’t the movement.

The Trump phenomenon is one thing, and Donald Trump the person is quite another. While the former is to be cheered and encouraged, for reasons I’ll get into in a minute, the latter is a very mixed bag.

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2...nt-vote-trump/

This is just one example out of a dozens or so pro Trump articles written by this man where he makes claims that only a naive 18 yr old in his virgin voyage of American elections would make. I know he tried to pull back a little because I think he wanted to keep some of his dignity and credibility while supporting Trump. I think he badly failed in that attempt

[Occam's Banana]

People say the same thing about Alex Jones but I am beginning to doubt their value if they are easily deceived by an obvious fraud. How did Justin miss the fraud that is Trump that bad? nobody would ever know. He lost a lot of credibility and goodwill in this cycle and he only have himself to blame for it.

Raimondo let his desperation and enthusiasm get the better of him. He saw what he wanted to see, rather than what was actually there. So did a lot of other people. Given that what they wanted to see, had it been so, would've be a hell of huge improvement over what we actually had or ended up with, I'm not going to hold it against them. They were wrong, but I'll save my venom and spite for my actual enemies, not for someone like the founder of antiwar.com and one of the most tireless and vehement critics of US interventionism.

And yes this exercise makes me feel better about myself, in fact it is about the only thing that makes me feel good on this site because I know the amount of flack I took for trying to warn people about Trump on this site. Lastly, being hostile towards the people calling out these gullible and/or disinfo agents doesn't add any inches to your dick. Calm the fu*k down and quit it.

LOL. The only hostility here is coming from you. The OP posted an article sharply critical of Trump's foreign policy, and your immediate response (post #2) was to snipe at and rant about the author, without addressing the actual content of the article at all - because it's all about you, isn't it? I don't have any problems with calling out Raimondo et al. for their mistakes when there's a constructive point to doing so. But it's not even slightly edifying when the only real purpose behind it (as you have admitted) is just to stroke yourself publicly.

[CPUd]

Related:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...rump-of-Arabia