Zip is right- there have been Christian members that called for killing homosexuals and stated that it should be part of federal law. I'm not going to name names but it was pretty prevalent during the SCOTUS ruling on gay marriage.Originally Posted by Theocrat
There is no spoon.
That's not what I asked Zippyjuan to prove, though.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
You asked for a citation. Just backing that up.
There is no spoon.
Where is the citation, Ender?
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
Bible:
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (NKJ, Leviticus 18:22)
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them. (NKJ, Leviticus 20:13)
Some consider this Paul's condemnation of homosexuality:
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people who suppress the truth by their unrighteousness, 19 because what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts and their senseless hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, 27 and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Quran:
And [We had sent] Lot when he said to his people, "Do you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds?(80)Indeed, you approach men with desire, instead of women. Rather, you are a transgressing people."(81) Al-Araf 80-81
Ash-Shura 25:165-166
Do you approach males among the worlds(165).And leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing."(166)
Al-Naml 27:55
Do you indeed approach men with desire instead of women? Rather, you are a people behaving ignorantly."
Quran 4:16
And the two who commit it among you, dishonor them both. But if they repent and correct themselves, leave them alone. Indeed, Allah is ever Accepting of repentance and Merciful.
From the Hadith:
Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done. Abu Dawud 38:4447
Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : If a man who is not married is seized committing sodomy, he will be stoned to death. Abu Dawud 38:4448
There is no spoon.
Well, looks like you and I were both involved in this conversation.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...+homosexuality
There is no spoon.
Let's not pretend that advocating for a state which kills people is better in any way than killing them yourself.
Your first quote does show that both Christianity and Islam have civil sanctions against homosexual behavior, but you have not analyzed why that makes Christianity and Islam similar religions. For starters, you have not explained the purpose of God's sanctions against homosexual behavior, comparatively, between Christian theology and Islamic theology. For all you know, their individual purposes could have two diametrically opposed reasons for their need of punishing the act (which they do). And if that is the case, then it would not prove, definitively, that Christianity and Islam are similar religions, due to the fact that their establishments of law would be based on conflicting foundations. But, once again, that would be something I'd like to see Zippyjuan prove, since he made the claim of their similarity.Well, looks like you and I were both involved in this conversation.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...+homosexuality
Your second quote provides no citation of a Christian RPF member saying something like, "The Bible teaches that homosexuals should receive the death penalty; therefore, all people have the right to kill homosexuals on site." That is the implication of Zippyjuan's original post that I replied to, and it is the very reasoning that I'm asking him to cite from any Christian member here.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
Given the subject of this thread, your point is simply moot. It has nothing to do with this discussion, in its relation to the event that happened in Orlando.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
Nice try, Zippo, but that was the OLD TESTAMENT, which was moot when Jesus died on the cross.
================
Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.
Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America
The Property Basis of Rights
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ender again.
“I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”
― Henry David Thoreau
Short version (both religions share many of the same prophets and texts too). http://www.discoveringislam.org/isla...ristianity.htm
Quick Overview of the similarities and differences between Islam & Christianity
Islam is similar to Christianity, both believe that:
- There is only one God. He is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.
- God sent prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Joseph, John the Baptist, Jesus, etc.
- People should follow the Ten Commandments and the moral teachings of the prophets.
- Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a virgin; therefore Jesus was born miraculously.
- Jesus Christ is the Messiah and he performed miracles.
- The Old testament/Torah and the new testament/Gospel) are holy scriptures.
- Satan is evil; therefore, people should not follow Satan.
- An Anti-Christ will appear on Earth before the Day of Judgment.
- Jesus Christ will return by descending from Heaven and will kill the Anti-Christ.
- The Day of Judgment will occur and people will be judged.
- There is hell and paradise.
There are 3 main differences between Islam & Christianity:
1. Today, most Christians believe in the Trinity, meaning that God has 3 forms (Father, Son, Holy Ghost/ Spirit). The concept of trinity was not adopted by Christianity until the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. Some of the early Christians were Unitarians. Even today, there are Christian Unitarian churches that do not accept the Trinity. Notable Rationalist Unitarians include thinkers such as Ralph Waldo Emerson (American), scientists such as Isaac Newton (British), as well as famous figures such as Florence Nightingale (British) in nursing and humanitarianism, Charles Dickens (British) in literature, and Frank Lloyd Wright (American) in architecture.
While in Islam,
(a) Trinity is totally rejected. Jesus is neither God, nor Son of God (in the literal sense). Jesus was a human prophet and not divine.
(a) Muslims worship only God, the one and only the creator of the universe.
(b) This God (the Quran refers to as Allah) is the God and creator of Jesus and is the same God that Jesus in the current Bible refers to as Father and to whom Jesus used to pray.
(c) Muslims consider Mohammad, Moses, and Jesus as prophets and messengers sent by God ("messengers" is term that refers to prophets who brought holy scriptures to their people as a message from God). These prophets were human beings, not divine, and should not be worship directly or indirectly.
(d) Muslims believe that each human being can be called son/daughter of God because he/she was created by God. So there is nothing special or divine about Jesus being called son of God and therefore Jesus should not be worshiped.
(e) Finally, angels (such as Gabriel) are servants/agents of God. Angels are created by God; therefore, they are not divine and should not be worshiped.
2. The Quran says Jesus did not die on the cross, but God made it appear that way to people. Furthermore, the Quran also says that Jesus was ascended to Heaven by God. Most Christians today insist Jesus was crucified and died on the cross, but two days later was resurrected.
3. Christians believe in the concept of "Original Sin" which means that human beings are born as sinners , bearing the burden of the "Original Sin" of Adam and Eve. Muslims do not believe in the " Original Sin" for 2 main reasons:
(a) In the Quran, God forgave Adam for what he has done, and
(b) according to the Quran, no one should be made to bear the burden of someone else's sin or mistake because it is unfair.
On site? Like where the sexual act took place?"The Bible teaches that homosexuals should receive the death penalty; therefore, all people have the right to kill homosexuals on site."
(I didn't say and don't think the other person said they should be stoned on sight - looking for the post)
Do you think kids should be stoned to death for misbehaving as the Bible commands?
Check this thread: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=stoning+death
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 06-13-2016 at 08:47 PM.
So was the part about stoning homosexuals and homosexuality being a sin. Islam and Christianity and Judaism recognize the Old Testament as part of their teachings.
Well.....
Christian Liberty: P4P asks Theocrat this:
Leviticus 20:13 seems to think that homosexual actions are so repulsive that they deserve such. Why shouldn't homosexuality be a capital crime?By the way, do you still believe in executing homosexuals that don't repent or are you still of that belief?Christian Liberty:
Don't misunderstand me, I don't deny the importance of repentance. Any man can be repent and be saved. And its a glorious thing when that happens, regardless of whether his sin is homosexual contact or even murder.
That said, I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says repentance should mitigate civil penalties. Maybe that is somewhere, but I'm not familiar with it. So, if you repent of a capital crime, whether homosexual contact or murder, you should pay the price in this life, according to the Bible.AND....Christian Liberty: Sola_Fide has said that murder should be punished by death under the moral equity, but that homosexuality and adultery aren't (he would also say that blasphemy is not.) I don't see how this fits with a covenental hermaneutic.
I get the argument Kevin Craig (a Calvinistic anarchist who ran for congress in Missouri) makes that capital punishment as such is ceremonial (though I can't reconcile it with a reasonable reading of Romans 13 or with Genesis 9:6) but even then this doesn't explain why homosexuality and murder shouldn't be dealt with the same way in society.
That's all I'm going to deal with on this subject.
Too repulsive to continue.
There is no spoon.
First, I would like to say that given the differences listed there between Christianity and Islam, there is no way to rational way to conclude that they are similar religions because those differences touch on the very bedrock of their theological systems about the character and nature of God. In short, the God of Christianity is very different in His essence from Islam's depiction of Him, which means that Christians and Muslims worship a different God, altogether. There are many more things I can say about that, but there is something else that I believe you're missing.
Second, how do the sanctions against homosexual behavior between Christianity and Islam show that the two are similar to each other, especially in how and why those sanctions are carried out and applied to society today? The reason I'm asking that is because perhaps what Omar did in Orlando is acceptable in Islamic thought and law, but that does not mean that it is also acceptable in Christian thought and law. But in order to know that, one would have to understand the reasons taught in both respective faiths of why God instituted the sanctions against homosexual acts, in the first place. So, you can't presume that an act (such as shooting people in a gay nightclub) is acceptable for both Christianity and Islam just because both record sanctions against the same behavior.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
RE the OP "born here / home grown" question:
Oh it's worse alright.
The important details here for the Florida ISLAM/Muslim terror attack is 1.), not getting
sucked into the "crazy" or "hate crime" BS labeling. One (or more?) of the shooter(s?)
was a gov contractor, probably off-duty at the time. 2)., His gov day job was transporting
and relocating non-Hispanic illegals? (Should lead to interesting investigation/meta data, etc.)
While no other candidate warned about this topic, Trump made it GLOBAL news way BEFORE
people got blown up and/or shot up. The Wall is about the future. But deportation and/or just,
"figuring out what the Hell is going on" is the thing to consider NOW where the FL shooter
had been here for decades. "Born here" may not be a criteria to bother with... It's probably that
completely incompatible culture/religion/asymmetrical warfare issue that needs a proper label.
The way the MSM and ALL the other politicians will not clearly call it for what it is is a bad sign
that indicates a solution is nowhere near. Was the shooter on pills and the FBI did not pick up
on him? That's BS and the vetting process used is apparently dangerously useless. Trump might
need to fire some people and explain it to the rest of us after he becomes POTUS...
Anyone considering taking guns (of any type or size) away from citizens or vetted government
contractors is totally insane for obvious reasons since there are many other tools that can be
used to cause massive harm.
This is a very big deal for very cool heads to ponder bravely!
IMO, the EU "blending" " culture assimilation" solution is not good for them and not good for America.
Unfortunately it's secretly well underway here already!
Christian Liberty said that he supports civil punishments for homosexual behavior. Nowhere did he say that people can, therefore, kill homosexuals wherever they find them (as in a nightclub, for instance). That's all I'm trying to point out. Advocating for civil sanctions against homosexual behavior does not equate to vigilante justice upon them, either, from a Biblical perspective. Therefore, what Omar Mateen did in Orlando does not prove that his murderous act would be supported by Biblical law, even if it's supported by Islamic (Sharia) law.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
Does Islam call for killing homosexuals "wherever they find them"?Nowhere did he say that people can, therefore, kill homosexuals wherever they find them (as in a nightclub, for instance).
So you don't agree with the Bible saying that homosexuals should be killed. But then again, he did not stone his victims. He did violate one of the Ten Commandments a few times.Therefore, what Omar Mateen did in Orlando does not prove that his murderous act would be supported by Biblical law, even if it's supported by Islamic (Sharia) law.
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 06-13-2016 at 09:15 PM.
You're asking him?
#49 - Yea, Think so...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-do-western-c/
Islam does have a problem with homosexuality. But so do western conservatives
Omar Mateen – who shot dead 50 people in an Orlando gay club – was both an Islamist terrorist and a violent homophobe.
These things are not mutually exclusive. They are concomitant. Mateen attacked the West in general but targeted gay people in particular. Inevitably some people say Islam is incompatible with Western life because it is incompatible with our attitudes towards sexuality.
Are they right? Well, it’s complicated. And on a matter as sensitive as this, there is nothing wrong with admitting that it’s complicated.
Don’t expect Donald Trump to do that, of course. He responded to the Orlando shootings by repeating his call for a ban on Muslim immigration. That would be unethical and wrong, but it’s part of a popular backlash against political correctness. The fact that Barack Obama is reluctant to use the words “radical Islam” when talking about atrocities perpetrated by radical Islamists riles American conservatives. They see the politicians’ constant refrain that “Islam is a religion of peace” as dishonest, even treacherous.
Liberals listening to Trump and Spahn might choke on their tofu. When, they would counter, did Western conservatives suddenly become fans of sexual freedom? Haven’t they spent decades fighting gay rights? Marco Rubio, the Florida senator, was one of the first Republicans to say that Orlando was an attack on gay people – and good for him. But Left-wing critics argued that his outspoken opposition to gay marriage was part of the cultural environment in which Mateen’s bigotry grew. Islam wasn’t the only religious authority that Mateen would have encountered in Florida telling him that gay people are going to Hell. He could have tuned in to any evangelical radio show to hear that.Because TV is awash with the liberal values of its producers, it can appear as if our entire hemisphere has embraced sexual liberty. That’s a conclusion that many conservative Muslims resent – but they’re quite wrong: not everyone in the West sees homosexuality and heterosexuality as equal. The average Dominican friar has far more in common with a typical Imam than he does with a liberal Conservative MP. And so long as neither Christian nor Muslim breaks the law, we probably wouldn’t expect the state to go out of its way to challenge them. Sexual privacy is now widely regarded as a Western principle – but so is freedom of religious conscience.
Both those principles can be summed up as the freedom to be left alone by the state. And this is where radical Islamism really does clash with predominant Western values. It’s taken us centuries to get here, but Westerners now generally concede that states and churches both benefit from some degree of separation – and that religious belief is stronger, purer when it is reached through education and reasoned debate rather than forcible official indoctrination.
Islamists believe it is the command of Allah to remake the world in their own image, according to a reading of the Koran that the vast majority of Muslims do not recognise. Not Sufis, of whom Muhammed Ali was one. Not Ahmadiyya Muslims, one of whom, Asad Shah, was murdered in Glasgow in May simply because he wished his Christian friends a happy Easter. Not those Muslims who comprise the majority of victims of Islamist violence worldwide. And not almost 3 million American Muslims, whose near-invisibility as a community shows how well integrated they are.
The conservatives are right: Islam does have a problem with homosexuality. Yet so do many conservatives. And it would be an inversion of Western values to insist that any individual suddenly rethink their religious beliefs if they want to be accepted into society. But Muslims, I’m sure, would welcome a social contract requiring everyone to obey the law and respect the distinction between church and state. And, most of all, live and let live.
If we keep importing Muslims gays will have to back in the closet.
"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
James Madison
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams
Μολὼν λάβε
Dum Spiro, Pugno
Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito
The Islamic Hadiths don't call for killing homosexuals in those exact words, but they certainly leave the door wide open for that application by the way in which their sanctions against it are worded (in Abu Dawud 4462). Maybe, according Islamic legal theory, Omar did not carry out the punishment correctly because he shot his victims instead of stoning them (and that's assuming that he killed them for Islamic reasons), but I'm honestly not sure. Once again, my point here is that even if Omar shot gay people for Islamic reasons, it still does not prove that his mass shooting is acceptable in Christianity (even if the Bible teaches civil penalties for homosexual behavior).
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
I, too, think it's a shame the lot of them didn't get stoned.
Would have saved their loved ones a lot of grief.
I have not noticed any Muslims saying what he did was good or right. http://time.com/4365689/orlando-shoo...lim-nightclub/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b071ec19ee9fbeMuslim Leader Calls for ‘Overwhelming Love’ in Response to Orlando Shooting
Juan Rivera was inside the Pulse nightclub Saturday night, when a 29-year-old Muslim American committed the worst mass shooting in U.S. history. Rivera has been missing ever since.
Less than a day later, his still hopeful brother, Baron Serrano, took to Facebook to tell the world that he knows the deranged shooter did not represent any religion. “I want to let people know that not everyone’s the same,” he said in the video stream. “Today I met real Islam and all they do is love.”
The man holding the iPhone camera wanted the world to know the same thing. Hassan Shibly, the bearded and skull-capped executive director of the Florida chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), had rushed to Orlando on Sunday morning from his home in Tampa after learning of the shooting. He spent much of the day meeting with family members and community officials to condemn the killing of 50 and injuring of at least 53 at the LGBT nightclub. Offering hugs and prayers, he worked his way through the crowd of grieving family members awaiting word on their loved ones fates at a local hotel.
“It was just heartbreaking to stay here with the victims today and hear their stories and what they’re going through and the fear and the unknown,” he said after comforting Serrano, one of the dozens of family members told they would have to wait until Monday for news.
American Muslims Send A Powerful Message Of Solidarity To Orlando Victims
The American Muslim community reacted with an outpouring of love and support in the wake of the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.
The support came in the form of fundraisers, blood donations, and public statements that firmly condemned the violence that claimed the lives of 49 victims at Orlando’s Pulse nightclub early Sunday morning, and left dozens more injured.
At the same time, the violence sparked a debate within the community about whether Muslim leaders need to speak out more forcefully against homophobic ideologies.
The gunman, identified as 29-year-old Omar Mateen, reportedly called police about 20 minutes into the shooting and pledged his allegiance to ISIS. His father, Seddique Mateen, has claimed that his son became upset after seeing two gay men kissing in Miami a few months ago. Pulse was a haven for Orlando’s LGBTQ community.
Muslim organizations and activists across the country have spoken out against the shooting, explicitly calling it a hate crime.
Rasha Mubarak, regional coordinator for Orlando’s branch of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), an advocacy organization, said in a statement:
“We condemn this monstrous attack and offer our heartfelt condolences to the families and loved ones of all those killed or injured. The Muslim community joins our fellow Americans in repudiating anyone or any group that would claim to justify or excuse such an appalling act of violence.”
Last edited by Zippyjuan; 06-13-2016 at 09:41 PM.
I recommend that you read this article, just to give you a varied perspective on how to treat this tragedy, because not all Western conservatives have reacted the same way.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
But if he'd put on a badge before he did it then that would have been 100% Jesus approved.
No, because that is not how the law is applied, Biblically. You're missing several steps before a sentence can even be passed.
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
The only difference being the process, not the result.
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