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Thread: Vote for Liberty by Not Voting

  1. #1

    Vote for Liberty by Not Voting

    Vote for Liberty by Not Voting

    Daniel J. Sanchez
    lewrockwell.com
    October 16, 2012

    “He may not be perfect, but at least he is better than Obama.” Even some former Ron Paul supporters have given this line as an excuse for supporting Mitt Romney for the United States Presidency.

    The line betrays a deep misunderstanding of what liberty means.

    As many libertarians have already pointed out, Romney is not nearly as different from Obama as is commonly supposed. But more importantly, in some vital ways he is actually worse.

    The “better than Obama” way of thinking implicitly throws the entire anti-war aspect of libertarianism under the bus. The thinking runs as follows: “Romney may be expected to have an even more imperialist foreign policy than Obama, but he is better than Obama on domestic economic affairs, and that is obviously what matters most.”

    This is in stark contrast to Ron Paul’s own way of thinking. Ron Paul may be in the same party as Romney. But this by no means indicates that Paul himself would consider Romney an improvement over Obama. In fact, it is probably more likely that the prospect of the neocons returning to full power in Romney’s wake is more frightening to Paul than the prospect of Obama being given a chance to double-down on his domestic agenda.

    Ron Paul, unlike some of his supposed supporters, never gave foreign policy a back seat to domestic economic policy: far from it. In his presidential campaign, he talked even more about ending our empire than ending the Fed.

    Moreover, Ron Paul wisely included foreign policy as an essential plank within his domestic economic policy, pointing out incessantly that our empire is not only responsible for destruction abroad and insecurity at home, but it is also bankrupting and impoverishing us.

    Foreign policy is an economic matter in another way as well. Foreign interventionists are essentially security-production socialists. For far too many conservatives, the same Federal government that is too inept and corrupt to run a television station is somehow miraculously competent and virtuous enough to make the whole world a safer place through centrally planned invasions, occupations, sanctions, regime changes, and CIA ops.

    Some may concede this point, but argue that the danger of an Obama “New Deal” is more acute than that of a neocon renascence under Romney. But that is far from obvious, and is in fact rather dubious. What can be more acutely dangerous than an even more belligerent foreign policy that is more likely to lead to nuclear blowback? When Murray Rothbard explained why he had rooted for (which is fundamentally different from endorsing) Lyndon Johnson over the allegedly “pro-liberty” candidate Barry Goldwater, he pointed out that Goldwater’s advisers were crazy and wanted to “nuke Russia”. Rothbard rightly said that problems like price controls “fade away” in significance in the face of prospects of nuclear conflict. There isn’t much to price in a nuclear wasteland.

    Rothbard, like Ron Paul, placed foreign policy center stage. Just as Ludwig von Mises was the Last Knight of Liberalism, Murray N. Rothbard was the Last Knight of the Old Right. As Mises was a laissez-faire Leonidas surrounded by socialists and money cranks, Rothbard was an anti-war Roland, fighting bravely and almost alone in the rear guard of the Old Right against the Cold Warriors of the New.

    Rothbard spent much of the 50s writing an epochal economics treatise that made plain the case for the free market. But by 1959, he was more concerned with matters of war and peace than with domestic economic policy. In that year, he wrote, “…I am getting more and more convinced that the war-peace question is the key to the whole libertarian business…” and that, in the face of an American arms budget exceeding $40 billion, “[t]he fact that we might spend a few billion less on public housing or on farm support no longer thrills me.”

    Neither should the prospect of Romney tinkering around the edges of the American welfare state (and probably actually expanding it) thrill, or even appease, libertarians in the face of American military spending which, in 2011, exceeded $700 billion. This is especially true, considering that Romney is explicitly promising to reverse Obama’s defense “cuts”.

    Of course this is not to say that libertarians should vote for Obama. For one thing, Obama too is a horrible foreign interventionist. And even though he is somewhat less disastrous than Romney would be in foreign policy, that is only true in the short run.

    Similarly, Romney, like Obama, is a horrible domestic interventionist. And even though he would be somewhat less disastrous than Obama in domestic economic policy, that is only true in the short run as well.

    In the long run, if either is elected, the above impacts would likely be reversed.

    Romney’s big-government economic policies would sow the seeds of further crises and depression. Yet this failure would be blamed on his ostensibly “free market” orientation, thereby giving capitalism a bad rap. This has happened before. The reputation of, and prospects for, capitalism are still reeling from the presidency of George W. Bush.

    Similarly, Obama’s continued foreign meddling would sow the seeds of further conflict and global instability. Yet this failure would be blamed on his ostensibly “soft” foreign policy, thereby giving peace a bad name. We have already seen this as well. The current wave of unrest in the Arab world is due largely to Obama’s recent meddling in Libya, Egypt, and elsewhere. It is the U.S.-sponsored Arab Spring recoiling, as springs inevitably do. Yet, this Arab Recoil is being blamed by many on America’s failure to “lead” (i.e., meddle even more) under Obama.

    And so, the choice between Obama and Romney is even less clear than one might think. With Romney, the cause of domestic economic liberty and abundance is harmed a bit less in the short run, but more in the long run. With Obama the cause of peace and security is harmed a bit less in the short run, but more in the long run.

    So, if one were forced to vote for one or the other, the question would not merely be which cause is more important. The choice would also be between the short run and the long run. Are the short-run dangers so acute that they must take precedence, else there won’t even be a long run to speak of? Or would it be foolish and myopic to grasp at a short-run palliative, thereby sealing our doom down the road?

    Thankfully, you, dear reader, are not forced to vote for one or the other: at least not yet. And you should not feel obliged to, either. As many have already argued, the chances of your single vote making the difference between Obama or Romney becoming president are virtually zero.

    Moreover, even if you do not accept that line of reasoning, you must remember Frédéric Bastiat’s injunction to consider both the “seen” and the “unseen”. You must consider not only whatever effect you think your vote directly and narrowly has on this election, but also its indirect and broader effects.

    For one thing, your vote helps provide a mandate for all of the elected officer’s policies, whether you support those policies or not. As one author has said, voting “just encourages the bastards.”

    Furthermore, every vote for a federal office is a vote for the hyper-state known as the U.S. federal government, and for hyper-states in general. It is effectively an endorsement of centralized power and a vote of no confidence in localism. And yes, this would be true of a vote for a middling libertarian like Gary Johnson, or even an exceptionally heroic individual like Ron Paul. True progress toward liberty cannot be achieved through the offices of a gargantuan state.

    But most importantly, the example you set for your children and friends by voting to place a warmonger, a redistributionist, or any other rights-violator (or anybody, really) into an inherently destructive office at the head of an inherently destructive hyper-state has impacts that will propagate throughout society and posterity like ripples in a pond, and will be far more significant than any direct impact you have on the election at hand.

    The most effective way to promote liberty on Election Day would be to choose to abstain from voting and to tell everybody about that choice. If you are going to cast anything that day, cast a few dollars toward a worthy organization like the Mises Institute. Now that would be a vote for liberty.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



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  3. #2
    In small towns in NH, much of the voting is actually done by the people. I could understand not voting in NYC. However, in some towns in NH, ballots are pages long and mostly filled with questions. In town hall meetings, the residents of the town are allowed to vote on the budget line by line.

    I like the article but large parts of it it just don't apply where I live or in Switzerland.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  4. #3
    Not voting is not expressing disaproval. It does not express any desire for more liberty. It says "eh, who cares?"

  5. #4

  6. #5
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Not voting is not expressing disaproval. It does not express any desire for more liberty. It says "eh, who cares?"
    Correct. There is no reason to waste ones time voting in show elections. I have no intentions of giving any public legitimacy to this state, to these candidates, to the party.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LibForestPaul View Post
    Correct. There is no reason to waste ones time voting in show elections. I have no intentions of giving any public legitimacy to this state, to these candidates, to the party.
    What about voting on the issues? That's mostly what voting is about in the 100s of towns in NH. Heck, there are elections in NH where there aren't any candidates on the ballot. It is just issue after issue. In many of the towns in NH, the people of the town are the government. They run the show. They set the budget and so on. Are you against being a defacto legislator?
    Last edited by Keith and stuff; 10-16-2012 at 06:38 PM.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  8. #7
    LibForestPaul
    Member

    If it matters in your state, then vote. Voting for and federal position is a sham, voting for most state positions( in my state) are a sham. In my state, when a school budget is not passed, they put it up again. And if it still is not passed, all the extra curricular activities and tutoring are cut...not the 8 assisitant principle jobs, not the pension. If you state and county are not a sham, then vote.

  9. #8
    On cue, Ron talked about foreign policy being a central plank in domestic economic matters tonight on CNBC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism



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  11. #9
    Not voting is in itself a vote: against democracy as a corrupt system of hacks , thiefs and murderers. If democracy is the foundational idea of civilization that it is touted to be, than why when I cast my non vote is it discarded every time?

    Political democracy will always ensure the worst will get to abuse the rest of us - each and every time.

    There are two groups: the 2+2=4 people and the 2+2=5 people. Only one group is constantly in error, but they have guns to make sure that 2+2 will always equal 5.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Not voting is not expressing disaproval. It does not express any desire for more liberty. It says "eh, who cares?"
    This. And "who cares?" can be interpreted as tacit approval. If you don't care for either of the two major party candidates, you should vote for a third party or write in something, even "NOTA."
    “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard.”

    H.L. Mencken

  13. #11
    prop 64 in Colorado is a good reason to vote.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ninepointfive View Post
    prop 64 in Colorado is a good reason to vote.
    I agree. Though, there are 5,000 better reasons to vote. In New Hampshire, people vote in town budgets line by line. If there is spending in a town in NH, the people vote on it. It is for the people, by the people. That's the New Hampshire way.
    Lifetime member of more than 1 national gun organization and the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance. Part of Young Americans for Liberty and Campaign for Liberty. Free State Project participant and multi-year Free Talk Live AMPlifier.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith and stuff View Post
    I agree. Though, there are 5,000 better reasons to vote. In New Hampshire, people vote in town budgets line by line. If there is spending in a town in NH, the people vote on it. It is for the people, by the people. That's the New Hampshire way.
    sounds like NH is a good state

  16. #14
    Not voting IS a vote to continue the current two-party system & its coercive methods, so as somebody said, vote for a 3rd party to let them know that we don't want to take this coercive duopoly anymore.

    May be consider voting Libertarian, they are not perfect party but more votes to Libertarian Party is a way to show that the number of libertarians is growing & that our issues matter!
    There is enormous inertia — a tyranny of the status quo — in private and especially governmental arrangements. Only a crisis — actual or perceived — produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes politically inevitable
    - Milton Friedman

  17. #15
    I personally don't buy the "not participating in a corrupt system as a form of protest" argument. If every liberty-minded person take that then the political process, as f'd up as it is, will ONLY be filled with statists and moochers. Refusing to be part of the system will not stop it from stealing from you and prohibiting personal behaviors.

  18. #16
    Government will just go along with the democracy charade regardless of how few participate.



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  20. #17
    I agree only as to an office with candidates none of which you want to be responsible for. but I think you need to VOTE on something to put in a ballot or you don't register a protest. When people say only just above half of eligible Americans vote, they spin it as apathy or contentment, not as protest. VOTING but refusing to vote for the top of the ballot (or, in my case, writing in Ron Paul) sends a 'none of the above' message, and the number is tallied, even if we would have to spread it ourselves.
    "Integrity means having to say things that people don't want to hear & especially to say things that the regime doesn't want to hear.” -Ron Paul

    "Bathtub falls and police officers kill more Americans than terrorism, yet we've been asked to sacrifice our most sacred rights for fear of falling victim to it." -Edward Snowden

  21. #18
    This is where the Rockwellians fall off the rails. The DC crowd could not be happier that you do not voye - it increases their odds of success.

    This is a case where silence is consent.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    This is where the Rockwellians fall off the rails. The DC crowd could not be happier that you do not voye - it increases their odds of success.

    This is a case where silence is consent.
    Exactly. Not voting is Washington D.C.'s wet dream. This $#@! is why I believe Lew Rockwell to be counter intelligence. He is an anarchist in charge of the the pro-Statist Ludwig von Mises Institute. Hegelian Dialect at its finest.

    The dumbest thing one can do is not participate in his/her governance.

    "Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." - Pericles, 430 B.C.

  23. #20
    Well, personally, the National elections are just an illusion. These elections are totally rigged. Nevertheless, as a protest, I am going to vote in the national elections and write-in Ron Paul.

    The founders warned us about democracy.

    John Jay: “Pure democracy, like pure rum, easily produces intoxication, and with it a thousand mad pranks and fooleries.”

    George Washington: “It is one of the evils of democratical governments, that the people, not always seeing and frequently misled, must often feel before they can act.”

    Alexander Hamilton: “If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy.”

    Alexander Hamilton: ”Real liberty is neither found in despotism, nor in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments.”

    James Madison: “Where a majority are united by a common sentiment, and have an opportunity, the rights of the minor party become insecure.”

    James Madison: ”Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Well, personally, the National elections are just an illusion. These elections are totally rigged. Nevertheless, as a protest, I am going to vote in the national elections and write-in Ron Paul.

    The founders warned us about democracy.

    John Jay: “Pure democracy, like pure rum, easily produces intoxication, and with it a thousand mad pranks and fooleries.”

    George Washington: “It is one of the evils of democratical governments, that the people, not always seeing and frequently misled, must often feel before they can act.”

    Alexander Hamilton: “If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy.”

    Alexander Hamilton: ”Real liberty is neither found in despotism, nor in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments.”

    James Madison: “Where a majority are united by a common sentiment, and have an opportunity, the rights of the minor party become insecure.”

    James Madison: ”Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.”
    Indeed. Today the National elections are a total joke. Diebold voting machines aka election rigging machines & Romney's strong arm tactics kinda ruin it for everyone except the elite. But it does not have to be that way. Democracy came with the Federal Reserve System. It is not a true Democracy... it is an Oligarchy that considers voting to be a pesky nuisance that must take place in order to fool the idiots. Voting must be performed each election cycle to satisfy the TV crowd but honesty is thrown out the door. It is a bunch of crap. Unfortunately, freedom is not free. The United States of America and each State government were required to be Republics by declaration in the Constitution.

    Now a lot of people believe that all government is bad. That is shallow minded. Governments have been around forever and if they are not declared as legitimate government then government becomes brutal rulers ... rule by weapon. Which is what we have today... brutal thugs in blue uniforms with 'badges' ruling the people with night sticks, tasers, and guns. The constitutions declare legitimate governments. They should be strictly obeyed.

    It does not have to be this way. I have a ballot in front of me. I know two or three people on the ballot who I will vote for. I have the option of a write-in for president which I fully intend to use. But it is all a facade. It matters very little who gets elected at the national level because nearly all of them will all take the money rather than vote on principle. Nearly all. Why should they not? Life is short... take what you can.

    The answer, which only 3% promote, is sound monetary policy. Sound monetary policy stops the political game in their tracks. Ron Paul said it best in "Gold, Peace, and Prosperity"

    Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity.
    And while I love your consistent message of good health; good health and sound money go hand-in-hand.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Exactly. Not voting is Washington D.C.'s wet dream. This $#@! is why I believe Lew Rockwell to be counter intelligence. He is an anarchist in charge of the the pro-Statist Ludwig von Mises Institute. Hegelian Dialect at its finest.

    The dumbest thing one can do is not participate in his/her governance.

    "Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." - Pericles, 430 B.C.
    Dude you say that everyone is counter intelligence. Literally every well known writer or speaker in the liberty movement earns that label from you.

    I think it's more likely that Rockwell feels changing the system is hopeless even though sometimes he gives it a try (like supporting Ron Paul's campaigns).

    I walk the line between both. The anarchists saying that voting is evil and the those in our movement that say we will be able to make changes both annoy me. It's worth the effort but it's not likely that the state's gonna take a smashing any time soon.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Dude you say that everyone is counter intelligence.
    Bull$#@!. That is an outright lie. I am very selective in my accusations. Lew Rockwell is an obvious co-intel pro to the naked eye. For crying out loud are you completely asleep? The Anti-State promoter is promoting Ludwig von Mises who was totally a Pro-State advocate. Have you not read anything about Hegelian Dialect? Nothing at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    Literally every well known writer or speaker in the liberty movement earns that label from you.
    You have not earned that label yet. Are you wanting to? I'll put it on you if you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    I think it's more likely that Rockwell feels changing the system is hopeless even though sometimes he gives it a try (like supporting Ron Paul's campaigns).
    Well then I suggest that you wake the $#@! up.

    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    I walk the line between both. The anarchists saying that voting is evil and the those in our movement that say we will be able to make changes both annoy me. It's worth the effort but it's not likely that the state's gonna take a smashing any time soon.
    Wake up. The state is your friend if you are a homeowner or a property owner. I ask you to wake the $#@! up. Your leaders are leading you astray. Wake the $#@! up.
    Last edited by Travlyr; 10-17-2012 at 09:16 PM.
    "Everyone who believes in freedom must work diligently for sound money, fully redeemable. Nothing else is compatible with the humanitarian goals of peace and prosperity." -- Ron Paul

    Brother Jonathan

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Wake up. The state is your friend if you are a homeowner or a property owner. I ask you to wake the $#@! up. Your leaders are leading you astray. Wake the $#@! up.
    No no no. You went way to far there. The state has already taken some of MY property on 2 occasions. Imminent domain for big energy companies. If not for the state guns, I'd have stood out there with my guns and said "hell no, we will not abide".



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    No no no. You went way to far there. The state has already taken some of MY property on 2 occasions. Imminent domain for big energy companies. If not for the state guns, I'd have stood out there with my guns and said "hell no, we will not abide".
    Well then that is not a legitimate State is it? Your were taken by the Mafia. Welcome to the world of "Monopoly" money.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    No no no. You went way to far there. The state has already taken some of MY property on 2 occasions. Imminent domain for big energy companies. If not for the state guns, I'd have stood out there with my guns and said "hell no, we will not abide".
    Here you go friend. "Vote for Liberty by Not Voting"

    Be a tool.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Well then that is not a legitimate State is it? Your were taken by the Mafia. Welcome to the world of "Monopoly" money.
    The state is the mafia. It's the only state I've ever known. And you are the one standing up for the state.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by fr33 View Post
    The state is the mafia. It's the only state I've ever known. And you are the one standing up for the state.
    Me, Ludwig von Mises, and Ron Paul are all standing up for the State.
    Last edited by Travlyr; 10-18-2012 at 06:11 AM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Exactly. Not voting is Washington D.C.'s wet dream. This $#@! is why I believe Lew Rockwell to be counter intelligence. He is an anarchist in charge of the the pro-Statist Ludwig von Mises Institute. Hegelian Dialect at its finest.

    The dumbest thing one can do is not participate in his/her governance.

    "Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." - Pericles, 430 B.C.
    LvMI folks have been around long enough to prove themselves. If they could have been outed, they would have by now and RP would not allow himself and his work to be associated with them. LvMI has done more to advance the classical liberal/libertarian agenda than you and all your friends put together have.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Travlyr View Post
    Bull$#@!.

    Me, Ludwig von Mises, and Ron Paul are all standing up for the State.
    False. Mises and RP oppose the State in the classical liberal tradition. Mises supported micro-secession.

    ETA: RP agrees with Spooner's argument (in "No Treason")-
    Last edited by heavenlyboy34; 10-17-2012 at 10:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

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