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Thread: Drinking and Driving vs. Drunk Driving

  1. #1

    Exclamation Drinking and Driving vs. Drunk Driving

    Drinking and Driving vs. Drunk Driving

    http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/11/0...drunk-driving/

    by eric • November 2, 2015

    It is important to make distinctions. To know exactly what we are talking about before we “do something” about it.

    For instance, drinking and driving and drunk driving. There is a distinction to be made here.

    An important one.

    Why on earth should it be illegal – a crime – merely to have been drinking and driving?

    Emphasis on merely.

    Put another way, why should it be a punishable offense to have been drinking when one’s driving can’t be faulted? Unless of course the object of the exercise is to impose a kind of low-rent Prohibition – to punish people for drinking – this makes no sense at all.

    But it does seem to be the object of the exercise.

    Which is why the law increasingly package-deals the consumption of alcohol – any alcohol at all – with “drunk” driving. Those under 21 (who may not legally buy, possess or consume alcohol) can be convicted of “drunk” driving if they are found with even a single empty beer can in the car at a “sobriety checkpoint.” It does not matter whether the driver even drank the single can of beer. The presence of the empty can is sufficient.

    For those over 21, the definition of “drunk” is nearly as hysterical.

    In every state, you are automatically presumed to be a “drunk” driver if your blood alcohol content is .08 regardless of your driving. Mark that. Your actual driving is not the issue, as far as the law is concerned. It is not necessary for the arresting officer to even assert that he saw you driving erratically, much less prove that you were.

    Even if you got him to concede in open court that he’d been following you for miles as you drove down a curvy mountain road and could not point to anything about your driving that indicated that you were other than in full control of you vehicle before finally pulling you over for a seatbelt violation or because the little light over your license plate was out – and subsequently, you “blew” a .08 in the Breathalyzer – it would not matter.

    You are a “drunk” driver.

    You could win the Indy 500 – sure proof that no matter what proof your blood might be, you are a damned fine driver but if your BAC is over whatever the arbitrary number is (currently, it is .08; it used to be .10 and before that, it was .12) then legally speaking, you are a dangerous, reckless, irresponsible, out-of-control “drunk.”

    Your faultless driving is not admissible evidence that while you may indeed have been drinking, you weren’t “drunk.”

    This is crazy. Like Carrie Nation.

    But the law is lazy.

    It does not want to be burdened with the obligation to prove that you – specifically – have had “too much” to drink. That would need to be established on a case-by-case basis, because each individual varies in his driving ability as well as his ability to handle his booze.

    A person of low-average ability behind the wheel who has had nothing to drink but nonetheless wanders across the double yellow in every curve is legally acceptable (or at most, if a cop witnesses it, may get cited for a minor traffic offense) while the high-skilled driver who stays in his lane even though he has had a couple of beers gets arrested at a “sobriety checkpoint” solely because his BAC is over the ever-diminishing allowable threshold. The former faces a small fine and gets to drive home, wandering all over the road. The latter faces thousands in fines and goes to jail.

    Because the law wants a one-size-fits-all (and thus, necessarily dumbed-down) standard that is based on a bait-and-switch.

    Driving is no longer the focus. That would require observation and evidence, which was as it used to be. If you were driving erratically – across the double yellow, for instance – that was the necessary probable cause for pulling you over to investigate further. But if you weren’t driving erratically then a cop had no legal basis to pull you over because he had no probable cause. If your driving could not be faulted, the presumption was you were a competent driver. Whether you’d been drinking was immaterial. As it ought to be.

    This reasonable standard has been replaced by shockingly unreasonable random stops without any probable cause whatsoever and the conflation of arbitrarily decreed trace amounts of alcohol in one’s system with drunkenness.

    The sell is that more “drunks” are captured this way. In truth, they are merely catching more people who’ve been drinking.

    It’s not quite the same thing.

    If the argument is that people who drink (even a little) and drive are as a general rule “drunk” by definition (no matter their individual driving) and the only criteria necessary to establish a criminal case is the presence of small traces of alcohol in their system (or even just a single empty can of beer on the floorboards) then why shouldn’t people who are over the age of say 65 who – in general – have weaker eyesight and slower reflexes and a higher likelihood of being afflicted with dementia and so on – likewise be presumed dangerous behind the wheel, regardless of their competence behind the wheel?

    Arrest them all!

    Of course, grokking this point requires a conceptual faculty, the ability to discern principles and apply them to particulars. Most Americans lack this, courtesy of government schooling – which trains them to react emotionally instead. This makes it easy to demonize demon rum without (for the moment) demonizing older people as a class.

    Their turn will necessarily come. Because one thing does follow another.

    Most people, unfortunately, do not comprehend.

    They target fixate on the emotional jihad du jour. Right now it is “drunk” driving. Perhaps tomorrow it will be elder driving. Or some other goat group.

    Government schools have done their work, brilliantly.
    “Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee



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  3. #2
    There was a time when drinking while driving was perfectly acceptable, yet drunk driving was not.

    But today, we have drivers out there who have no business driving while stone cold sober. They are unsafe at any speed. Yet, an excellent driver after one drink is demonized, and it is considered one of the worst crimes in our nation.

    This is crazy. Like Carrie Nation.
    Absolutely. It is neoprohibitionism combined with the highway robbery of government revenue generation.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
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    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  4. #3
    If you can make it home without getting pulled over by the cops, you win.

  5. #4
    There ought to be a law = There ought to be a gov't agent to thump you on the head with a stick if you refuse.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #5

  7. #6
    Sleeping behind the wheel causes many accidents also. We need to make that illegal too.

    Maybe if you're caught driving with bags under your eyes you should go to jail.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    If you can make it home without getting pulled over by the cops, you win.
    If you drive poorly enough to get pulled over THAT by itself is proof of driving impaired. Putting other people at risk for trivial personal convenience violates the NAP.

    r

  9. #8
    there is no such thing as drunk driving, drunk is subjective and there's no evidence that says being drunk makes driving more risky. no harm no victim no crime.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by paleocon1 View Post
    If you drive poorly enough to get pulled over THAT by itself is proof of driving impaired. Putting other people at risk for trivial personal convenience violates the NAP.

    r
    BULL$#@!. NAP is not violated until you HARM SOMEBODY. Risk is not harm. "Trivial personal convenience" is your Fascist opinion because you clearly don't value freedom. Freedom isn't meant to be practical, freedom is meant to be freedom even if it's "trivial" in your statist mind.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by bxm042 View Post
    Sleeping behind the wheel causes many accidents also. We need to make that illegal too.

    Maybe if you're caught driving with bags under your eyes you should go to jail.
    majority of car accidents happen when a person is
    -sober
    -buckled up
    -awake
    -adult
    -driving under 200mph

    So if we wanted to reduce car accidents, we ought to start by banning all of the above. Statistics proves being drunk, unbelted , sleeping, driving over 200mph and underage do not cause most accidents, therefore would not curb anything by addressing them.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    If you can make it home without getting pulled over by the cops, you win.
    it has sadly come down to this standard, we are afraid of nothing but public servants to claim to serve and protect us.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    BULL$#@!. NAP is not violated until you HARM SOMEBODY. Risk is not harm. "Trivial personal convenience" is your Fascist opinion because you clearly don't value freedom. Freedom isn't meant to be practical, freedom is meant to be freedom even if it's "trivial" in your statist mind.
    OK so you feel entitled to place others at risk to suit your whims. Good luck with the cops, sport. I will be rooting for them.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by paleocon1 View Post
    OK so you feel entitled to place others at risk to suit your whims. Good luck with the cops, sport. I will be rooting for them.
    PRB is trolling, but he's right about this.

    Everything you do can be presumed to put somebody else "at risk".

    You like bacon?

    Well, I'm calling the cops on you because bacon causes cancer and you have no right to put me at risk blowing cancerous cooking fumes at me.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by paleocon1 View Post
    OK so you feel entitled to place others at risk to suit your whims. Good luck with the cops, sport. I will be rooting for them.
    $#@! off statist.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    PRB is trolling, but he's right about this.

    Everything you do can be presumed to put somebody else "at risk".

    You like bacon?

    Well, I'm calling the cops on you because bacon causes cancer and you have no right to put me at risk blowing cancerous cooking fumes at me.
    where am I wrong, where do we disagree and why am I acused of trolling?

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    it has sadly come down to this standard, we are afraid of nothing but public servants to claim to serve and protect us.
    When in reality their only real job is law enforcement, not service nor protection. <shrug>



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by paleocon1 View Post
    OK so you feel entitled to place others at risk to suit your whims.
    Consider for a moment how many people in the US are prescribed and drive to work on narcotic painkillers. Totally legit.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Consider for a moment how many people in the US are prescribed and drive to work on narcotic painkillers. Totally legit.
    Exactly, if you're not perfect you have no right to criticize other people for "putting others at risk" there is no constitutional right to safety.

  22. #19
    From my own experimentation (not in a vehicle, just in general) I've found somewhere like 0.12-0.14 is where my motor skills and attention start being affected. If the BAC limit was like 0.12 it would at least be more reasonable than 0.8. 0.8 is easy to hit in a couple hours of casual bar drinking. 0.12 requires more of a serious effort to get drunk.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by brandon View Post
    From my own experimentation (not in a vehicle, just in general) I've found somewhere like 0.12-0.14 is where my motor skills and attention start being affected. If the BAC limit was like 0.12 it would at least be more reasonable than 0.8. 0.8 is easy to hit in a couple hours of casual bar drinking. 0.12 requires more of a serious effort to get drunk.
    no, it wouldn't be "more reasonable", government is government and if you don't hate it like I do, you're part of the problem. Fascism is fascism and if fascism isn't OK at .08, it's not OK at .12, it's all arbitrary.

    The government has no business telling us how much alcohol we can have in our blood, no harm, no victim, no crime.

    Legalize drunk driving.

    http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rockw...nkdriving.html

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    PRB is trolling, but he's right about this.

    Everything you do can be presumed to put somebody else "at risk".

    You like bacon?

    Well, I'm calling the cops on you because bacon causes cancer and you have no right to put me at risk blowing cancerous cooking fumes at me.
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    where am I wrong, where do we disagree and why am I acused of trolling?
    Uh, right above sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    Exactly, if you're not perfect you have no right to criticize other people for "putting others at risk" there is no constitutional right to safety.
    Quote Originally Posted by PRB View Post
    no, it wouldn't be "more reasonable", government is government and if you don't hate it like I do, you're part of the problem. Fascism is fascism and if fascism isn't OK at .08, it's not OK at .12, it's all arbitrary.

    The government has no business telling us how much alcohol we can have in our blood, no harm, no victim, no crime.

    Legalize drunk driving.

    http://archive.lewrockwell.com/rockw...nkdriving.html
    You're trolling has more vitriol as of late; what happened?

  25. #22
    ./
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-18-2016 at 09:56 PM.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ghengis86 View Post
    Uh, right above sport.
    Not disagreeing with him at all. So what's the problem?


    You're trolling has more vitriol as of late; what happened?
    how so?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by paleocon1 View Post
    If you drive poorly enough to get pulled over THAT by itself is proof of driving impaired.
    Driving poorly is proof of nothing,, except driving poorly.

    and you CAN BE PULLED OVER FOR ANYTHING (or nothing),, REGARDLESS OF DRIVING ABILITY.

    Being pulled over is proof of nothing.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Driving poorly is proof of nothing,, except driving poorly.

    and you CAN BE PULLED OVER FOR ANYTHING (or nothing),, REGARDLESS OF DRIVING ABILITY.

    Being pulled over is proof of nothing.
    not that driving ability means $#@!, no harm, no victim, no crime, what's so hard to understand about this?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by amartin315 View Post
    Ahh...first world problems
    I believe governments extorting and robbing their citizens is a universal norm.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    When I was living in the 2nd world... once while high on some awesome coke, I suddenly found myself standing in a pool of gasoline at the filling station (thieves had cut my gas line to drain the tank). A pair of cops appeared and helped me push the truck out of the gasoline, the numerous empty beer bottles on the floorboards clinked audibly through the rolled down windows and they said not a word. I bought them a 6pack of Amstel and myself a bottle of whisky, then they gave me a lift home.
    I got two DUIs on a single traffic stop with a BAC of .01.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    I got two DUIs on a single traffic stop with a BAC of .01.
    That must be some kind of record!

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    That must be some kind of record!
    Even most people from per se DUI states aren't usually aware it's possible.

    My first automatic conviction came when I hesitated to blow into a breathalyzer. Eventually coming to terms with that I was going to jail regardless and wishing to speed up the process so that I could go to sleep, I complied and blew into a breathalyzer. My BAC was .01. I was under twenty one so the legal limit was .02. They were surprised so they ordered me to take a piss test. I told them to eat a bag of dicks so that was my second automatic DUI conviction.

    Then they added every conceivable misdemeanor imaginable. So much for Fifth Amendment protections.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  34. #30
    In case some aren't aware, many states have per se zero tolerance laws with regards to trace amounts of illegal drugs in one's system.

    So for instance, if you smoke a joint, and two weeks later you are pulled over, you could and will be convicted of driving under the influence if for whatever reason they do a urinalysis.

    If you smoke a joint and two weeks later a child runs in front of your car and is hit and dies, you could and in fact would in many states, be charged with something akin to vehicular manslaughter. Regardless of one's sobriety at the time of the accident.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

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