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Thread: Trump or Hillary? There's Another Choice

  1. #1

    Trump or Hillary? There's Another Choice

    "Spain," wrote the Basque philosopher Miguel de Unamuno in 1934, "is divided between the Anti-Zs, who support X, and the Anti-Xs, who support Z". How aptly those words apply to the United States in 2016.

    A foreign observer of American politics doesn't see Republicans and Democrats. He doesn't see conservatives and liberals. He sees two angry and inchoate blocs called "Stop Hillary!" and "Never Trump!"

    The more he listens, the more it seems to him that both sides have a point. Neither candidate appears to be fit for office. Both evidently regard the presidency as a bauble fashioned for their pleasure rather than as an office that should simultaneously elevate and humble its holder.

    Clinton cannot quite hide her annoyance that others have so far stopped her from having her turn with the toy. Trump, for his part, sounds less like a businessman than like a sinister, bullying mobster.

    So, absolutely: Stop Hillary. And, while we're about it, Never Trump. We're all agreed on what we're against. But what are we for? As Unamuno could see, negativity takes you only so far. Two years later, the Anti-Zs and the Anti-Xs had moved from arguing in cafes to shooting each other, and Unamuno himself had died, broken-hearted, under house arrest.

    Alright, America isn't about to descend into a civil war. But surely the country can do better than two disliked, disreputable and dishonest candidates pointing at each other and saying: "I am the only alternative!"

    Remember the classic "Simpsons" episode where the alien invaders Kang and Kodos contest the presidency, both promising to enslave the human race? The point was that people were foolish to fall for the "don't waste your vote on a third-party candidate" shtick. A surprising number of commentators seem to have taken that line, not as a joke, but as a kind of quasi-official constitutional norm.

    In a contest between two spoilt and petulant shysters, the only wasted votes are the votes cast without conviction. If ever there was a moment for a credible third-party bid, it is now.

    Me? I like Gary Johnson, the Libertarian candidate. He's a self-made businessman of unimpeachable integrity. Indeed, the main case against him is that he sticks flintily to a number of positions that he knows to be unpopular.

    Conservatives generally approve of his plans radically to scale down federal spending; of his uncomplicated support for free trade; of his enthusiasm for gun rights. But they tend to be rather warier of his relaxed attitude to gay marriage, abortion and marijuana.

    Then again, these things have nothing to do with the presidency — a point which the former governor, a strict constitutionalist, understands in a way that neither Mr. Trump nor Mrs. Clinton does.

    On foreign policy, which really is part of the job, Johnson is what we might call a Libertarian moderate — almost a LINO. He is no interventionist, and strongly opposed the Iraq War. But he offends some Libertarian purists by refusing to blame the ills of the world on Western meddling.

    It's true that, as a rule, Libertarians don't win elections. The closest they get to power is when they form broader conservative coalitions, as happened under Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.

    Still, if anyone can perform respectably, it's the quiet, likeable, fitness-obsessed Johnson, who took New Mexico against the trend in 1994, vetoed more bills than his 49 fellow governors combined, and won comfortable re-election. At a time when the Right badly needs to win support among Hispanic-Americans, he can point to a solid record of success.

    In any event, whether or not he can win, there are three good reasons to back Governor Veto on principle.

    First, it would show that there are still Americans who care about what ought to be the central issue in politics, an issue that is becoming dull through familiarity and has been overlooked among the shenanigans of the primaries, but that has not gone away, namely the incredible fact that the federal government is more than $19 trillion in debt.

    Second, it would allow people to participate in this election without, as it were, soiling their hands. They could carry out their civic obligation in good conscience.

    Third, someone has to make the case for free enterprise and limited government. It is bad enough that Donald Trump has succeeded in his hostile takeover of the GOP. But if the wider conservative movement doesn't take a stand, then the entire American Right will become tainted with his brand of foul-mouthed nativism. And that, my friends, wouldn't be just America's tragedy; it would be the world's.

    Dan Hannan is a British Conservative MEP.
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/th...rticle/2593453



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  3. #2
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  4. #3
    Excellent OP- thanks, @r3volution 3.0
    There is no spoon.

  5. #4
    doesn't matter...hilliary is our next president, so concentrate on congress.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by JK/SEA View Post
    doesn't matter...hilliary is our next president, so concentrate on congress.
    And vote LP, to maximize press for libertarians and get the LP easier ballot access.

    I've been very critical of the LP in the past, and will no doubt be so in the future, but it's a good thing they've hung on.

    They're now the best/only non-insane option for voters.

  7. #6
    If you are going to go the protest candidate route, the CP candidate is infinitely better than Gary Johnson. Trump vs Johnson is a choice between which evil you think is lesser (I prefer Trump to the loathsome Johnson, but reasonable people can disagree on that). If you want to vote FOR somebody this election cycle, Darrell Castle is the only option.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by RonPaulMall View Post
    If you are going to go the protest candidate route, the CP candidate is infinitely better than Gary Johnson. Trump vs Johnson is a choice between which evil you think is lesser (I prefer Trump to the loathsome Johnson, but reasonable people can disagree on that). If you want to vote FOR somebody this election cycle, Darrell Castle is the only option.
    A Trump supporter (^^^), who is not a complete moron (^^^), would want to promote the CP over the LP because he would know the CP has ballot access in few states and would therefore do less well altogether and peel off fewer voters from il douchebag. This is to be ignored.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    And vote LP, to maximize press for libertarians and get the LP easier ballot access.

    I've been very critical of the LP in the past, and will no doubt be so in the future, but it's a good thing they've hung on.

    They're now the best/only non-insane option for voters.
    Only if you're a frickin' traitor and advocate for the complete overrun of our country with illegal aliens and the transition into world government.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    A Trump supporter (^^^), who is not a complete moron (^^^), would want to promote the CP over the LP because he would know the CP has ballot access in few states and would therefore do less well altogether and peel off fewer voters from il douchebag. This is to be ignored.
    No, the CP isn't running a CFR member who chaired the CFR's task force, "Building a North American Community", like the LP is.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    A Trump supporter (^^^), who is not a complete moron (^^^), would want to promote the CP over the LP because he would know the CP has ballot access in few states and would therefore do less well altogether and peel off fewer voters from il douchebag. This is to be ignored.
    This is to be ignored. The CP candidate is better on virtually every issue. The only argument you guys have found for voting for Johnson/Weld Is the same one Romney supporters used to justify voting for their guy instead of Ron. Electability, or in this case to get 1%, or 5% or whatever pathetic number you are shooting for.
    Last edited by William Tell; 06-17-2016 at 06:56 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by William Tell View Post
    This is to be ignored. The CP candidate is better on virtually every issue. The only argument you guys have found for voting for Johnson/Weld Is the same one Romney supporters used to justify voting for their guy instead of Ron. Electability, or in this case to get 1%, or 5% or whatever pathetic number you are shooting for.
    I can't vote for Castle. He won't be on my ballot, and write-ins are not allowed.

    Tell me agains why I should not vote for Johnson? Tell me again how voting for Castle will rally us all together behind someone who can actually be elected, and isn't part of the two party system?

    I wish we were in a situation where we could vote for the very best of the bunch and do some actual good. But in the real world, our best hope of throwing this to the House and giving those "representatives" real impetus to reject both of the actual criminals is Gary Johnson. And I fear it's time to consolidate.

    No doubt I will be accused of picking the lesser of three evils. From my perspective, one of those evils is orders of magnitude better than the other two. Orders of magnitude. So, accuse me of it. Make it stick. I'll wear it with pride.

    Some of us have been waiting a very long time for the two major parties to jump the shark. Well, they've finally done it. Now we strike, or we be sheep. Either we be effective, or the Republicans and Democrats keep their shared power yet again. Do we want a revolution, or do we want to play silly buggars?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 06-17-2016 at 07:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  14. #12
    Yea well if the CP was on the ballot in every state your opinion might be worth something but since they are not I think I will vote libertarian since they are on the ballot.

    Gary Johnson is not Ron Paul but he is not the lesser evil between Trump and Hillary his is better than they are and if you can't get your mind wrapped around it and vote for him then you are as much a part of the problem as Trump and Hillary are maybe even more so.

  15. #13
    I think I can manage to vote for someone who vetoed more bills then 49 other governors combined.
    The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence.

    RON PAUL







  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I can't vote for Castle. He won't be on my ballot, and write-ins are not allowed.

    Tell me agains why I should not vote for Johnson?
    It is your choice, if I wasn't able to vote for Castle it would be different. I'm not sure what I would do.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Tell me again how voting for Castle will rally us all together behind someone who can actually be elected, and isn't part of the two party system?
    There is no one running for office in a third party this time who can get elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I wish we were in a situation where we could vote for the very best of the bunch and do some actual good. But in the real world, our best hope of throwing this to the House and giving those "representatives" real impetus to reject both of the actual criminals is Gary Johnson. And I fear it's time to consolidate.
    In the real world a third party doesn't have a chance at the presidency. If Johnson somehow started polling at 30% it would be a different situation, and world.


    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    No doubt I will be accused of picking the lesser of three evils. From my perspective, one of those evils is orders of magnitude better than the other two. Orders of magnitude. So, accuse me of it. Make it stick. I'll wear it with pride.
    No, I respect your choice, especially given your limited options in your state. A lot of the people supporting Johnson are people I respect. What I don't like is the reasoning I hear from most of them. We backed Ron and Rand because we agreed with them the most. Lots of "liberty" lite people ended up backing Cruz or Trump rather than Rand in the end because of perceived chance of winning. Some of us voted for Rand even after he dropped out, and would have still if we were his only supporter left.


    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Some of us have been waiting a very long time for the two major parties to jump the shark. Well, they've finally done it. Now we strike, or we be sheep. Either we be effective, or the Republicans and Democrats keep their shared power yet again. Do we want a revolution, or do we want to play silly buggars?
    I think there is an exactly 0% chance of a third party candidate wining this time, be it Johnson, Castle, Stein, or anybody else. The other problem in my view is the LP jumped the shark as well. Does the GOP and DNC suck more on average? sure. But parties are just tools. If you want to get elected you run Republican, if you just want to spread the message you might run LP or CP. The problem I have is Johnson's message sucks. He won't build the movement, he will get some one time anyone but Trump/Hillary votes, who will go back to supporting Bernie or Ben Carson in 4 years. If Johnson was actually elected he might not be quite so bad as he sounds sometimes, but he won't be. There weren't enough liberty voters for Rand to be a serious contender in the small GOP primary, there are far less in the general election electorate.
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's a balance between appeasing his supporters, appeasing the deep state and reaching his own goals.
    ~Resident Badgiraffe




  17. #15
    You might be right that Johnson has no chance. But I don't think that's because people aren't disgusted enough by these two criminals to opt out, despite the fact they've laughingly cranked up the old, reliable lesser evil fearmongering about ten thousand notches. It's because this will wind up in the House, where the will of the people is not represented.

    But I think it would be a very educational thing to throw this election to the House. It might even lead to the Twelfth Amendment being amended...

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by younglibertarian View Post
    I think I can manage to vote for someone who vetoed more bills then 49 other governors combined.
    Yep. Governor Veto's a better choice.

    The Constitution Party is too biblical.



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  20. #17
    Second, it would allow people to participate in this election without, as it were, soiling their hands. They could carry out their civic obligation in good conscience.
    ^ this, whoever you vote for, its important, that you do vote

    It's your duty as an American,

    To vote

    And then accept the outcome win or lose

    Because democracy

    Is Great
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    ^ this, whoever you vote for, its important, that you do vote

    It's your duty as an American,

    To vote

    And then accept the outcome win or lose

    Because democracy

    Is Great
    I travel for my job and might be out of town November 8 this year. What should I do if I want to have my voice heard?
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    I travel for my job and might be out of town November 8 this year. What should I do if I want to have my voice heard?
    Its not as good as voting at the Voting Booth itself,

    but its still good

    https://www.vote.org/absentee-ballot/
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    Its not as good as voting at the Voting Booth itself,

    but its still good

    https://www.vote.org/absentee-ballot/
    Thank you. I don't care what people say about Texans, you are alright
    Last edited by Danke; 06-17-2016 at 09:45 PM.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  24. #21
    If you use the absentee ballot you'll need to buy the I voted stickers on your own

    Which feels kind of cheesy

    Isn't as authentic
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If you use the absentee ballot you'll need to buy the I voted stickers on your own

    Which feels kind of cheesy

    Isn't as authentic
    No worries, I saved mine from last time.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If you use the absentee ballot you'll need to buy the I voted stickers on your own

    Which feels kind of cheesy

    Isn't as authentic
    Pssst. I might have some for sale. Not saying I do or I don't. Just sayin'. I find a lot of blacks and illegal aliens buy in bulk.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTexan View Post
    If you use the absentee ballot you'll need to buy the I voted stickers on your own

    Which feels kind of cheesy

    Isn't as authentic
    He doesn't need one. All he has to do is complain afterward, and everyone will know he wouldn't do it if he didn't earn the right to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.



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  29. #25
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    Tom Woods wrote a revealing piece criticizing Johnson for being a hollow cosmotarian without a real gauge on the philosophical underpinnings of libertarianism.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Tom Woods wrote a revealing piece criticizing Johnson for being a hollow cosmotarian without a real gauge on the philosophical underpinnings of libertarianism.
    Which is fairly accurate. And makes him eight thousand, four hundred thirty-seven times better than Trump.

    Just the fact that he's not one of Clinton's BFFs makes him better, the fact that he has worked with a legislature without bribing them makes him better, the fact he kept New Mexico out of bankruptcy makes him better, the fact he's not a tough-talking blowhard makes him better, the fact that none of his campaign promises flagrantly violate the Constitution and federal law makes him better...

  31. #27
    on a practical basis it has to be Trump because of the SCOTUS, Obamacare, and Obamatrade. a Trump win would leave 2020 open for Rand, esp if Newt is VP. a Hillary win would also be a Ryan win. and he would be the 2020 front runner. ballot access for the LP is determined by the vote for Governor in most states anyway. besides Trump is better than Romney, way better than Bush 43 or McCain. and Hillary is the worst Dem since 1964. she will expand SS, and push for forced national service. and probably pass these with RINO help.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by cindy25 View Post
    on a practical basis it has to be Trump because of the SCOTUS, Obamacare, and Obamatrade. a Trump win would leave 2020 open for Rand, esp if Newt is VP. a Hillary win would also be a Ryan win. and he would be the 2020 front runner. ballot access for the LP is determined by the vote for Governor in most states anyway. besides Trump is better than Romney, way better than Bush 43 or McCain. and Hillary is the worst Dem since 1964. she will expand SS, and push for forced national service. and probably pass these with RINO help.
    Seriously I wouldn't want Rand to run against Trump as the incumbant. Unless you think he will give up the shiny ring. Trump would give any serious opposition the Putin treatment. Wind up dead by the lincoln monument.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    Seriously I wouldn't want Rand to run against Trump as the incumbant. Unless you think he will give up the shiny ring. Trump would give any serious opposition the Putin treatment. Wind up dead by the lincoln monument.
    Trump would be 74, doubt if he seek a second term. and a 77 year old Newt surely won't

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by cindy25 View Post
    Trump would be 74, doubt if he seek a second term. and a 77 year old Newt surely won't
    Give that much attention to that schlemiel for four years and he'll spend half his time lobbying to repeal the 22nd Amendment. He'll want to die in office like Robert Byrd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

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