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Thread: Trump imposes 30 percent tariff on solar panel imports

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    Every time a trader in one country and a trader in another country trade, a tiny little international free market is happening. No matter how hard your Keynesian manipulations try to stem it, trade will continue.
    So now you are claiming that government intervention and free trade aren't mutually exclusive?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    Making the market less free will not free the market.
    The market ALREADY isn't free. By making adjustments to a heavily regulated market, you can make it closer to what a free market would actually look like.

    Not optimal, but in many cases preferable.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    well the foreign countries wage war with tariffs and subsidies on us and we have to fight back.
    No, we really don't have to fight back. Tariffs are a cure worse than the disease. Except for the special interests that benefit from them.

    If a country retains its own citizens' ability to trade freely (e.g. by not initiating, participating in, or fomenting trade wars), new avenues to prosperity will always present themselves.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    No, we really don't have to fight back. Tariffs are a cure worse than the disease. Except for the special interests that benefit from them.

    If a country retains its own citizens' ability to trade freely (e.g. by not initiating, participating in, or fomenting trade wars), new avenues to prosperity will always present themselves.
    Only after the global collapse, sometimes the disease IS worse than the cure, economic pacifism works no better than military pacifism.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Only after the global collapse, sometimes the disease IS worse than the cure, economic pacifism works no better than military pacifism.
    Oh. What should we do with our nukes, destroyers and bombers then?
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    The market ALREADY isn't free. By making adjustments to a heavily regulated market, you can make it closer to what a free market would actually look like.

    Not optimal, but in many cases preferable.

    So ... the problem is that we lack economic freedom, and in order to correct that situation, at least in part, we need to restrict economic freedom even further?

    What the $#@! Bizarro World have I found myself in?

    "Liberty movement"? What a $#@!ing sick joke.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    So ... the problem is that we lack economic freedom, and in order to correct that situation, at least in part, we need to restrict economic freedom even further?

    What the $#@! Bizarro World have I found myself in?

    "Liberty movement"? What a $#@!ing sick joke.
    I am not even going to read this $#@!. Home team advantage.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    I am not even going to read this $#@!. Home team advantage.

    Apparently, logic isn't your strong suit. Unfortunate.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    So ... the problem is that we lack economic freedom, and in order to correct that situation, at least in part, we need to restrict economic freedom even further?

    What the $#@! Bizarro World have I found myself in?

    "Liberty movement"? What a $#@!ing sick joke.
    Uhh, no, that's bull$#@!.

    I said optimally we would switch to a free market.

    But since that is not in the cards, and we have a heavily regulated market, making adjustments to said market may be preferable in some cases.

    For example - immigration - If we continue on our current path where we have a big government welfare state and open immigration, we will bring in a buttload of illegal immigrants, 80% of whom want bigger government compared to 42% of the current population who want bigger government. That will result in our country becoming a socialist $#@!hole.

    On the other hand, if we restrict immigration, even though restricting immigration in and of itself is not a liberty oriented plank, we will have substantially more liberty on the whole because our country won't have nearly as many socialist voters and welfare users. Obviously the best option would be to get rid of big government, but since that isn't in the cards, what we can do is restrict immigration in the mean time to ward off the horrible results of what big government is giving us now.

    If we send all of our manufacturing overseas because of big government, that is not good for our economy in the longrun. If we make some adjustments that will bring back manufacturing, it will give us the ability to be more sustainable and thus give us more liberty on the long run.

    There is still a big battle to fight, the goal is that we are in the best position to fight it as possible.

    If we just do what you are saying and let all the immigrants in and turn our country into a socialist $#@!hole and gut our manufacturing capability, we will NOT be able to have any semblance of freedom in the future. That I can tell you.
    Last edited by dannno; 01-30-2018 at 06:51 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #40
    Protectionist tariffs are bad. Ron Paul knows this. Why doesn't RPF anymore?
    Last edited by axiomata; 01-30-2018 at 07:40 PM.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    Protectionist tariffs are bad. Ron Paul knows this. Why Durant RPF any more?
    Uhm, there has always been a division on this topic on RPF, ever since its origin. Not everybody here is an anarchist. If you look some of the oldest members of this site are pro-tariff. I like free trade in theory, but it simply can't exist when one side has a global fiat currency. In our current environment I am pro-protectionist tariffs and have been since pretty much as long as this site has existed.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    Apparently, logic isn't your strong suit. Unfortunate.
    And yours is?

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    And yours is?

    At least sufficiently so to realize that you can't increase freedom by further restricting it.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by CCTelander View Post
    At least sufficiently so to realize that you can't increase freedom by further restricting it.
    Can I use my option?

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Uhm, there has always been a division on this topic on RPF, ever since its origin. Not everybody here is an anarchist. If you look some of the oldest members of this site are pro-tariff. I like free trade in theory, but it simply can't exist when one side has a global fiat currency. In our current environment I am pro-protectionist tariffs and have been since pretty much as long as this site has existed.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-other-nations

    In 2011 only 12% disagreed with removing ALL tariffs. 72% were in favor of unilaterally and unconditionally removing all tarrifs. Now we have maybe a majority cheering increasing tarrifs. In case its been forgotten. Tarriffs are taxes on American consumers.
    Last edited by axiomata; 01-30-2018 at 07:47 PM.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...-other-nations

    In 2011 only 12% disagreed with removing ALL tariffs. Now we have maybe a majority cheering increasing tarrifs.
    Uhm, I see 28% disagreed, a sizeable chunk of the site. "Conditionally" doesn't mean agreement.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by nikcers View Post
    MAGA
    Didn't you hear, China just announced that they will now move on of their solar plants to the US. That is results you small govt people cannot deny. The result we see is the job and who gives a $#@! about the unseen results of this move.

    Govt is good and does bring job and pay to the people. If you cannot be convinced by results then you are suffering from trump derangement syndrome

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Didn't you hear, China just announced that they will now move on of their solar plants to the US. That is results you small govt people cannot deny. The result we see is the job and who gives a $#@! about the unseen results of this move.

    Govt is good and does bring job and pay to the people. If you cannot be convinced by results then you are suffering from trump derangement syndrome

    Never go full retard.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by juleswin View Post
    Govt is good and does bring job and pay to the people. If you cannot be convinced by results then you are suffering from trump derangement syndrome
    Pretty much. Make them make better deals. These bitches work for you.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    Protectionist tariffs are bad. Ron Paul knows this. Why doesn't RPF anymore?

    Key word, “Protectionist”. How do you think our national government should be funded? Not at all? If we have common ground that it needs to be funded, a flat tariff that doesn’t favor one industry over another may be a good start.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  25. #51
    The applauding seem excessive. Even Jerry Springer doesn't get this much.

  26. #52
    Tame the challenge. Sorry democrats.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    Key word, “Protectionist”. How do you think our national government should be funded? Not at all? If we have common ground that it needs to be funded, a flat tariff that doesn’t favor one industry over another may be a good start.
    Flat tariffs may be a good way to fund a minimal government. Or it may not. We can have that reasonable debate later.

    First we must discuss the protectionist tariff supported by many in this thread.
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    Flat tariffs may be a good way to fund a minimal government. Or it may not. We can have that reasonable debate later.

    First we must discuss the protectionist tariff supported by many in this thread.
    To fund government at its current size, you would need a 200% tariff on everything imported- including oil and foods. That would triple their prices.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Uhm, there has always been a division on this topic on RPF, ever since its origin. Not everybody here is an anarchist. If you look some of the oldest members of this site are pro-tariff. I like free trade in theory, but it simply can't exist when one side has a global fiat currency. In our current environment I am pro-protectionist tariffs and have been since pretty much as long as this site has existed.
    I too believe in free trade . Not gonna happen .

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    To fund government at its current size, you would need a 200% tariff on everything imported- including oil and foods. That would triple their prices.
    So if you slash govt in half and everything cost twice as much and no taxes ? I guess there would be people for and against that . I would have to be against it unless it was restricted to Article One Section Eight govt . , then I would probably have to support it .



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    I too believe in free trade . Not gonna happen .
    Not with that attitude, we should never give up on freedom, it's not free but we are selling ourselves short here. We don't live in Russia where you don't have any options. We aren't there yet but with that attitude we will soon be given the same choice, dictator or chaos. I for one say no, I will always presume freedom, freedom is only gone when we give up on the idea of the good.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    So if you slash govt in half and everything cost twice as much and no taxes ? I guess there would be people for and against that . I would have to be against it unless it was restricted to Article One Section Eight govt . , then I would probably have to support it .
    You gonna try to cut Social Security in half? (Even Ron Paul wouldn't touch that one- he only suggested "letting the young people opt out" while "honoring our commitment to those who have qualified".

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    To fund government at its current size, you would need a 200% tariff on everything imported- including oil and foods. That would triple their prices.
    Why would I want to fund government at its current size?
    Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne,--
    Yet that scaffold sways the future, and, behind the dim unknown,
    Standeth God within the shadow, keeping watch above his own.
    ‫‬‫‬

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by axiomata View Post
    Why would I want to fund government at its current size?
    What size would you suggest? How would you get there? What to cut and how much? (If you are an elected official you probably want to stay away from Social Security, Medicare/ Medicaid and Defense- otherwise risk being voted out of office)


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