I believe "Christian Anarchy" is the only sensible answer...

[ChristianAnarchist]

What do you think that verse says about how important doctrine is?

You said you don't like to quibble about doctrine, but I'll tell you that if you care about your salvation, just like Paul says in that verse, you will make it your life to know what the doctrine of Christ really is.

Oh don't you doubt it when I say I have "doctrine". I have the best doctrine, I have UUGE doctrine!!

Seriously though, I do have my doctrine and I believe it's the correct one. Since we disagree on doctrine and there can only be one "truth", one of us is wrong. I believe it's you. You believe it's me. Only God has the answer. I at least recognize that my position MIGHT be in error and I'm willing to change it if I see a clear message from God that I'm wrong. You on the other hand are quick to pass your "doctrine" on as being the definite one. You are full of yourself man and your pride will bring you down someday. Don't worry though because I believe the one "true" doctrine is universal salvation and you will still be "saved". Only your pride will be hurt...

[Sola_Fide]

Oh don't you doubt it when I say I have "doctrine". I have the best doctrine, I have UUGE doctrine!!

Seriously though, I do have my doctrine and I believe it's the correct one. Since we disagree on doctrine and there can only be one "truth", one of us is wrong. I believe it's you. You believe it's me. Only God has the answer. I at least recognize that my position MIGHT be in error and I'm willing to change it if I see a clear message from God that I'm wrong. You on the other hand are quick to pass your "doctrine" on as being the definite one. You are full of yourself man and your pride will bring you down someday. Don't worry though because I believe the one "true" doctrine is universal salvation and you will still be "saved". Only your pride will be hurt...

Of course, you have your doctrine. But your doctrine is not derived from the text of Scripture, so therefore it is not a Christian doctrine. That's been my point the whole time.

[Sola_Fide]

Don't worry though because I believe the one "true" doctrine is universal salvation and you will still be "saved".

Universalism is most certainly not a Christian doctrine.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Universalism is most certainly not a Christian doctrine.

So you say... I disagree. Now what??

[Sola_Fide]

So you say... I disagree. Now what??

The Bible doesn't teach universalism. It's not a Christian belief.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Of course, you have your doctrine. But your doctrine is not derived from the text of Scripture, so therefore it is not a Christian doctrine. That's been my point the whole time.

Ah but this is the point you keep missing. YOU (and others like you) make the claim that some book we have today is "God's word". YOU (and others like you) don't have very firm ground to stand on. It's OBVIOUS to anyone willing to look at this claim that the claim is flawed. You have how many versions of the bible floating around now? Counting foreign languages there are over 1000 I'm sure. Each claims to be God's word without errors and yet I can show you errors in every version. Even the so-called "Christians" (yes, two can play that game) can't decide what "version" is the best one. Even if you look at the "original" manuscripts they are copied and copied over and over for 100's of years before we could find the "oldest" one. How many errors occurred in copying? We don't know. What about the early Church making some "edits" to what was written? You cannot guarantee that it did not happen...

So now, please enlighten me as to WHICH version of the English bible is the sanctioned one?? Also, please explain to me how you can be sure that there has been no tampering with the manuscripts for thousands of years??

[Sola_Fide]

Ah but this is the point you keep missing. YOU (and others like you) make the claim that some book we have today is "God's word".

No. Jesus said that Himself. God authorized His own words. Jesus said the Word of the Lord stands forever.

You and others like you) don't have very firm ground to stand on. It's OBVIOUS to anyone willing to look at this claim that the claim is flawed. You have how many versions of the bible floating around now? Counting foreign languages there are over 1000 I'm sure. Each claims to be God's word without errors and yet I can show you errors in every version. Even the so-called "Christians" (yes, two can play that game) can't decide what "version" is the best one. Even if you look at the "original" manuscripts they are copied and copied over and over for 100's of years before we could find the "oldest" one. How many errors occurred in copying? We don't know. What about the early Church making some "edits" to what was written? You cannot guarantee that it did not happen...

Oh, so this is an educational issue then? You obviously are not aware of the science of textual criticism. You made 3 or 4 absolutely inaccurate statements in that paragraph...especially the "copies of the copies" statement. I would hope you educate yourself about this vital issue. The texts of Scripture are not simply copies of copies. History proves that claim inaccurate.

So now, please enlighten me as to WHICH version of the English bible is the sanctioned one?? Also, please explain to me how you can be sure that there has been no tampering with the manuscripts for thousands of years??

I read several versions of the Bible. Some are better at capturing the ideas of the original Greek and Hebrew words than others. You can be sure there have been no tampering with the original texts PRECISELY because there have been errors made by copyists over the years. That is exactly how the science of textual criticism ascertains the original words.

[Christian Liberty]

Haha... this is what I love about "religion"... The constant bickering about "doctrine". I've heard all this for 50 years and my conclusion (using my own little pea brain that God gave me) is that none of these "experts" have a clue. One group will say that you aren't a "Christian" if you don't believe in predestination and one will say just the opposite. Personally I think BOTH views are wrong because you are a "Christian" if you believe in Christ. It's pretty simple. You don't need to have some kind of degree or sheepskin representing your extreme background in studying the "scriptures" to be a "Christian". If you did, where would that leave all the simple-minded and otherwise challenged individuals?? Thrown into the "brimstone"??

Well, the scriptures flat out spell out predestination, so to deny any form of it is to pretty blatantly deny scripture. Perhaps a true Christian could do this if they had simply never been confronted with the concept and had never thought about it, but CERTAINLY they will acquiese when it is pointed out to them. Again, with ignorant people, I think some inconsistently hold the true gospel of salvation based on Christ's merits alone (even if they are, as mentioned, inconsistent) and those people are saved. I think most people less so.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Well, the scriptures flat out spell out predestination, so to deny any form of it is to pretty blatantly deny scripture. Perhaps a true Christian could do this if they had simply never been confronted with the concept and had never thought about it, but CERTAINLY they will acquiese when it is pointed out to them. Again, with ignorant people, I think some inconsistently hold the true gospel of salvation based on Christ's merits alone (even if they are, as mentioned, inconsistent) and those people are saved. I think most people less so.

Oh, thank you for referring to me as "ignorant people". This elevates you does it? I have done a great deal of study (maybe even as much as you) and there are plenty of examples in the bible that disprove predestination. I won't bother going into detail here because I have no interest in starting a match of dueling verses. Suffice it to say that a "biblical scholar" can find plenty of argument on both sides. You two can claim that only "ignorant people" don't agree with you if you like...

[ChristianAnarchist]

No. Jesus said that Himself. God authorized His own words. Jesus said the Word of the Lord stands forever.

Really? Were you there? I wasn't (at least not that I remember). Of course Jesus and God are the authors of the universe and some of what they want us to know was recorded by wise men in the past... but some of it is not pure.

No, I think what you mean to say is you read somewhere (probably in your favorite version of the bible) that what you were reading was "God's word". Kind of strange that what you are reading claims it's own authority and there's no other evidence...

Don't get me wrong... I believe that a good portion of "the bible" is accurate. I also believe that some of it has been tampered with (perhaps in the first century) to include state worship. I for one don't believe in worshiping the state but Paul seemed to write about that (so it's claimed). Rather strange, don't you think, that a fugitive and wanted man should tell everyone to obey the "authorities"...

A man cannot serve two masters...

[Christian Liberty]

Oh, thank you for referring to me as "ignorant people". This elevates you does it? I have done a great deal of study (maybe even as much as you) and there are plenty of examples in the bible that disprove predestination. I won't bother going into detail here because I have no interest in starting a match of dueling verses. Suffice it to say that a "biblical scholar" can find plenty of argument on both sides. You two can claim that only "ignorant people" don't agree with you if you like...

I didn't necessarily claim you were ignorant. The alternative is that you aren't actually a Christian I wouldn't really put myself in the same category as Sola to begin with, we disagree on a lot.

[ChristianAnarchist]

I didn't necessarily claim you were ignorant. The alternative is that you aren't actually a Christian I wouldn't really put myself in the same category as Sola to begin with, we disagree on a lot.

Both of you believe in predestination I believe? How can it be that neither of you want to admit that there is a biblical argument for election? Predestination is one of my favorite topics to show how the "Church" comes down on two different sides of the same issue and both sides back up their claims with scripture. It's an excellent example of how the Church is wrong (at least one side on this argument is wrong - I'll let God make the final decision on this).