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Thread: Do you want a freer country or do you just want to stroke your own ego?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Yes we will.
    I don't think anything will improve until there's a crisis, in other words until we go broke. Why shrink govt when we can still borrow and print with no immediate negative consequences?



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So, that's why you're anti-libertarian? You love the U.S.A. so much you're afraid to let it replicate its former success?



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  5. #33
    They're calling those things "ego" now?

    Land sakes.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty is a state of being, if it is never actualized then it doesn't exist.
    I am afraid this is a gross non sequitur, similar to:

    If it is raining outside, then monkeys.

    Results are the end, theory is just a means,
    Slow down thar, cowboy... your fingers are getting ahead of your reason.

    Results MAY be an end... I'd have to think about that more than I wish to at the moment. Theory may be an element of the means, but there's more to it. Action and active defense of one's claims are where the rubber meets the road. Conceptual frameworks are important, but mean nothing without the material capacity and a sufficient bent to put it into effective action.

    if following your theory fails to bring results or even brings negative results then something is wrong with your theory.
    Not always true. If I believe that turning on my newly designed and built generators at the hydro plant I just finished erecting will provide electricity, the fact that I've neglected to open the sluice gates, thereby disallowing water to flow, it does not follow that my theory was flawed.

    If you are a "pure" libertarian or anarchist and allow millions of communists to move into your area they will create a communist state.
    And that might be OK, were they to remain respectful of the rights of non-communists. That, of course, would never be the case.

    The point you appear to be abortively making is well taken, but your logic is a bit blitzed, it seems.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So, that's why you're anti-libertarian? You love the U.S.A. so much you're afraid to let it replicate its former success?
    I'm not anti-libertarian, I want a libertarian country with controlled immigration so that it lasts.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I don't think anything will improve until there's a crisis, in other words until we go broke. Why shrink govt when we can still borrow and print with no immediate negative consequences?
    Possibly, but I won't give up hope until then and we will improve things in the aftermath.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Is that you or tulsa?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    I am afraid this is a gross non sequitur, similar to:
    Not so, unicorns are a concept of the mind, if nobody ever finds one then they don't exist.




    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Slow down thar, cowboy... your fingers are getting ahead of your reason.

    Results MAY be an end... I'd have to think about that more than I wish to at the moment. Theory may be an element of the means, but there's more to it. Action and active defense of one's claims are where the rubber meets the road. Conceptual frameworks are important, but mean nothing without the material capacity and a sufficient bent to put it into effective action.
    True, but that isn't the part of the riddle that I am discussing.
    Good people want everyone to be as happy as possible, smart people know that freedom is the state of being that best accomplishes that goal in the long run, therefore smart people think long and hard to come up with a theory how to best achieve liberty and maintain it, the next step which I didn't discuss is that they attempt to obtain the means to put their theory into practice, I assumed for the sake of argument that they were successful and moved on to the question of whether the theory produced the results that it existed to produce.


    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Not always true. If I believe that turning on my newly designed and built generators at the hydro plant I just finished erecting will provide electricity, the fact that I've neglected to open the sluice gates, thereby disallowing water to flow, it does not follow that my theory was flawed.
    It does if your theory was the only thing required was to turn on the generators and that there was no need to open the sluice gates, that would be exactly like theorizing that all that is necessary for freedom is a lack or minimization of government and that protecting that state of things by controlling immigration isn't needed.


    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    And that might be OK, were they to remain respectful of the rights of non-communists. That, of course, would never be the case.
    Exactly, yet so many here try to insist that it would be possible.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Not so, unicorns are a concept of the mind, if nobody ever finds one then they don't exist.
    Doc, you cannot be serious. Until atoms were discovered, are you saying they did not exist? Our failure to discover X, it follows not that X doesn't exist.



    True, but that isn't the part of the riddle that I am discussing.
    OK, but I will point out that whatever your point was, you did not make it clearly. Then again, I'm not very bright, so perhaps it's all just me.

    Good people want everyone to be as happy as possible, smart people know that freedom is the state of being that best accomplishes that goal in the long run, therefore smart people think long and hard to come up with a theory how to best achieve liberty and maintain it, the next step which I didn't discuss is that they attempt to obtain the means to put their theory into practice, I assumed for the sake of argument that they were successful and moved on to the question of whether the theory produced the results that it existed to produce.
    So far as your statements go, I can mostly agree. As for finding the way, that may be a fool's errand, given current circumstances.

    Freedom is the most difficult path to tread. The rewards are great, but the cost high. Freedom demands not much of the individual; it demands EVERYTHING. When a child is raised in an environment of freedom, they grow into free beings, jealous of their autonomy and understanding of the virtues of respect and good manners. But even relatively small contaminations of the mindset that leads men to want pretty slavery over actual freedom.

    It does if your theory was the only thing required was to turn on the generators and that there was no need to open the sluice gates, that would be exactly like theorizing that all that is necessary for freedom is a lack or minimization of government and that protecting that state of things by controlling immigration isn't needed
    That's tautological - "bad theories are bad". Fine, but trivial.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You are a loser, you will lose.
    Bud, you are more of an ass than somebody claiming a belief like the one you hold to has any good in it. And you are pointing out that several million people are losers too. So much for the holy than thou attitude.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Doc, you cannot be serious. Until atoms were discovered, are you saying they did not exist? Our failure to discover X, it follows not that X doesn't exist.
    You show me a place where freedom exists and I will agree it exists, I contend that although it may have existed in the past it doesn't currently exist.
    In addition I was always speaking relative to the results of the application of a theory, freedom doesn't exist as a result of anarcho-libertarianism if anarch-libertarianism causes tyranny instead.



    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    OK, but I will point out that whatever your point was, you did not make it clearly. Then again, I'm not very bright, so perhaps it's all just me.
    Contrary to the old saying not all great minds think alike.


    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    That's tautological - "bad theories are bad". Fine, but trivial.
    Some people need to be reminded that water is wet, they cling to their theories and scream that liberty doesn't require protection or allow for it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Bud, you are more of an ass than somebody claiming a belief like the one you hold to has any good in it. And you are pointing out that several million people are losers too. So much for the holy than thou attitude.
    You are a loser, you want bug government to take care of all your wants and needs that you can't or won't provide for yourself and then you try to come here and spread your attitude and tell us we to will fail because misery loves company.

    You will continue to lose because you have chosen to be a loser and you will fail to drag us into compulsive loser syndrome with you as well.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  16. #43
    No, you are being an ass. You are fine with a society that has no security. That is simply wrong.

    Ayn Rand was wrong. In theory, rights of an individual sound nice, but don't work in reality.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You show me a place where freedom exists and I will agree it exists
    The mind is the most important place. It is the first place, especially in a world as screwed up as it now happens to be.

    Some people need to be reminded that water is wet, they cling to their theories and scream that liberty doesn't require protection or allow for it.
    Point taken.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No, you are being an ass. You are fine with a society that has no security. That is simply wrong.

    Ayn Rand was wrong. In theory, rights of an individual sound nice, but don't work in reality.

    You know, I'm no fan of Swordsmyth's, at all, but the above has to be the stupidest thing I've seen posted here in my entire 11 years as a member. And you've beaten some pretty stiff competition, including the occasional post by Swordy himself. Bravo. Truly remarkable.
    Chris

    "Government ... does not exist of necessity, but rather by virtue of a tragic, almost comical combination of klutzy, opportunistic terrorism against sitting ducks whom it pretends to shelter, plus our childish phobia of responsibility, praying to be exempted from the hard reality of life on life's terms." Wolf DeVoon

    "...Make America Great Again. I'm interested in making American FREE again. Then the greatness will come automatically."Ron Paul

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No, you are being an ass. You are fine with a society that has no security. That is simply wrong.

    Ayn Rand was wrong. In theory, rights of an individual sound nice, but don't work in reality.
    You are the ass, some may call for a society with absolutely no security but I am not among them, but you don't care, you just throw that kind of accusation at anyone who disagrees with you.

    If you weren't an ass you wouldn't come here where nobody agrees with anything you have to say and you aren't wanted.

    Keep your brayings to yourself limey, we threw off the Redcoat yoke long ago and have done much better than you people ever since because of it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  20. #47
    Nobody cares about anyone, life is only about me, and me, that is the message of liberty, even if none of us care about anyone or anything for long in life, liberty doesn't exist in the way Mr Paul believes or anyone else. It doesn't.

    It is just a dream. A dog eat dog world, only leads to misery.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The mind is the most important place. It is the first place, especially in a world as screwed up as it now happens to be.
    There is truth to the saying that no prison can hold the human mind, but I wish to free the bodies of men as well that they may better enjoy the freedom of their minds.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You are the ass, some may call for a society with absolutely no security but I am not among them, but you don't care, you just throw that kind of accusation at anyone who disagrees with you.

    If you weren't an ass you wouldn't come here where nobody agrees with anything you have to say and you aren't wanted.

    Keep your brayings to yourself limey, we threw off the Redcoat yoke long ago and have done much better than you people ever since because of it.
    No you are, you don't think anybody should have welfare or healthcare, you believe that an individual must provide solely for themselves and only by choice should give to a stranger. Government programs are crap, and are a waste to enrich those employed by government.

    I can only imagine, how my society would go with no social housing, and the welfare state. Especially the welfare state, and no NHS.

    Every working American as the future Irish president spoke off in 2010 should get healthcare, no plans rubbish. Healthcare plans are just cruel.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Nobody cares about anyone, life is only about me, and me, that is the message of liberty, even if none of us care about anyone or anything for long in life, liberty doesn't exist in the way Mr Paul believes or anyone else. It doesn't.

    It is just a dream. A dog eat dog world, only leads to misery.
    That is exactly backwards, it is socialists who want everyone else to provide for them, those who believe in liberty care that the rights of no man be violated.
    @Bryan and @Brian4Liberty why hasn't this insect been banned yet?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    No you are, you don't think anybody should have welfare or healthcare, you believe that an individual must provide solely for themselves and only by choice should give to a stranger. Government programs are crap, and are a waste to enrich those employed by government.

    I can only imagine, how my society would go with no social housing, and the welfare state. Especially the welfare state, and no NHS.

    Every working American as the future Irish president spoke off in 2010 should get healthcare, no plans rubbish. Healthcare plans are just cruel.
    Mankind survived and took care of the poor for centuries before the nannystate was even dreamed of.

    You are just so selfish that you want everyone else to be forced to support you no matter how unworthy you are and you can't even conceive of anyone being charitable by choice.

    This is you:

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  26. #52
    Socialists want a society that is as fair as possible, liberty gives freedom to be selfish towards others.

    Capitalism is a part of that.

  27. #53
    Swordsmyth, you are dangerous and immoral.

    Always comparing the needy, and lazy bastard poor like Chavez's old government. Socialists are corrupt.

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Swordsmyth, you are dangerous and immoral.

    Always comparing the needy, and lazy bastard poor like Chavez's old government. Socialists are corrupt.
    You make not one whit of sense.
    "The Patriarch"

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    You make not one whit of sense.
    I believe he wants to rob you but is too shy to.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Republicanguy View Post
    Socialists want a society that is as fair as possible, (Bzzzzzzzt, wrong, fair means keeping the fruits of your labor, not being forced at gunpoint to give it to people you don't want to because gubmint says they deserve it)

    liberty gives freedom to be selfish towards others.

    Capitalism is a part of that.
    No $#@! Sherlock.
    "The Patriarch"



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    I believe he wants to rob you but is too shy to.
    That's what government is for.
    "The Patriarch"

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    That's what government is for.
    So long as it is Republican...
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    So long as it is Republican...
    Well, duh.
    "The Patriarch"

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    So long as it is Republican...
    I would so much prefer republicans took 39% of everything I produce than the stinking, putrid, despicable demoncrats taking 40% that I can't even put it into words.
    "The Patriarch"

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