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Last edited by Danke; 04-12-2017 at 10:18 PM.
Pfizer Macht Frei!
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The Federalist Papers, No. 15:
Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.
How much experience have you with such corporations? I have 30 years worth. Yes, there is some stupidity, but it's not nearly as common as you seem to think, especially in the F500. Managing a large business is not so easy as many seem to think.
Just like that, eh?They did not need an extra plane, just a different plane. A simple switcheroo with another plane scheduled for a different route would do.
This is not a well reasoned assertion.United had plenty of planes at that airport. The problem is when you are used to handling the cattle this option does not even enter your mind.
I will also add that it wasn't even United. It was Republic Air, operating as United Express, so the media didn't even get that part correct, and the fact of which removes United another layer from any culpability. Different corporation, different CEO; a man named Bedford or some such.
I would add that the "victim" demanded $1500 and a first-class seat. Apparently he ran off the aircraft and then back on, a violation of security.
This story is not cut and dried in the way the media are portraying. You're being lead by the nose down a garden path. To what end, who can say? But it is still a trip down Bull$#@! Street.
The police are 100% culpable.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
Pfizer Macht Frei!
Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.
Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!
Short Income Tax Video
The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes
The Federalist Papers, No. 15:
Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
And why is that? Because government created the environment where such behavior is needed just to survive.
I am a bit gob-smacked that so many people here are missing this, the most essential point of them all, choosing to take the media bait and get all knotted in the undies over United, who have no rationally discernible fault in any of this.
Likely so, but how long does anyone think that that will last? We are talking about 21st century AmeriKans here.The only court that they lose this case is in the court of public opinion.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
United Airlines vows not to call police on passengers as CEO apologizes for fiasco
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...412-story.html
United Airlines said it will no longer call on law enforcement to remove paid and seated passengers who have not agreed to give up their places on sold-out flights, one of several moves the airline announced Wednesday to try to quell a week of consumer outrage.
The Chicago airline’s chief executive, Oscar Munoz, told ABC News’ “Good Morning America” on Wednesday morning that he felt “shame” when he watched the video of a passenger, Dr. David Dao, being dragged off a sold-out United flight bound for Louisville, Ky., on Sunday by Chicago airport police.
United has said it needed to bump four passengers to make room for airline employees who needed to travel to Louisville. The airline reportedly offered $400 and a hotel stay, and then $800 to passengers to induce them to give up their seats. When there were no volunteers, United selected Dao and other passengers to get off the plane.
Dao refused, prompting airport police to pull him screaming from his seat.
Also on Wednesday, the Chicago Department of Aviation put two more officers who were involved in the onboard fracas on administrative leave, joining an officer who was suspended earlier. The passenger, Dao, took steps that could be a prelude to a lawsuit, and President Trump weighed in on the controversy.
During his interview, Munoz apologized to Dao, his family, passengers on the plane, United customers and employees, pledging that this “will never happen again on a United Airlines flight.”
Later Wednesday, United said all customers on that flight are receiving compensation for their ticket costs.
Such moves are the right first steps, branding experts said. But they believe the airline will have to do a lot more to regain the trust of customers.
“They have so destroyed the connection and trust they’ve built up over the years,” said Eric Schiffer, chief executive of Reputation Management Consultants in Irvine. “And it wasn’t just the beat-down of a customer that everyone could project themselves being — it was the response afterwards, which was so cold and done with such a lack of empathy. It made people believe they just don’t care."
After the videos and photos of Dao’s removal from the plane generated public outrage, Munoz initially said in a letter to employees that the 69-year-old physician from Elizabethtown, Ky., was a “belligerent” customer who “refused to comply” with requests to give up his seat.
Munoz apologized to Dao in subsequent statements, calling the incident a “truly horrific event.” In Wednesday’s interview, Munoz said his initial words “fell short of truly expressing what we were feeling.”
Munoz said the airline will conduct a “deep and thorough” review of many of its policies related to this, including the incentives offered to give up seats once people are aboard an aircraft. If no one chooses to leave the plane, despite the compensation offered, Munoz said United will not put a law enforcement official on the plane to take them off.
“To remove a booked, paid, seating passenger, we can’t do that,” he said.
This change could spread to other airlines, analysts said.
“It just seems like something that is rare enough where there’s a lot of upside to be able to promise passengers that this is not going to happen to you and it’s not costly to do,” said Seth Kaplan, managing partner of Airline Weekly. “There’s just no downside to doing this.”
In 2016, airlines posted an involuntary bumping rate of 62 per 1 million passengers, down from 73 per 1 million fliers the year before, according to a recent report from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics. The bureau said the 2016 figure represents the lowest annual rate since 1995.
Delta and American airlines did not respond to requests for comment on whether their policies would change.
Although United has denied reports that the Chicago flight was overbooked, the incident has resulted in increased scrutiny of this common airline practice.
Jan Brueckner, professor of economics at UC Irvine, said overbooking can actually benefit consumers. If an airline flies with empty seats, it forgoes revenue on the flight.
“Eliminating empty seats is a good idea because it keeps fares down,” he said. “People don’t like it because it’s crowded, but still, they care more about the price than anything.”
Rather than changing policies on overbooking, airlines should adjust their compensation policies to get more volunteers to take a later flight, he said. Currently, federal rules cap the compensation amount that airlines can pay for involuntary bumping at $1,350.
President Trump also brought up this point in a Wednesday interview with the Wall Street Journal. Trump said airlines shouldn’t be prevented from overselling flights, but should eliminate the maximum value of compensation vouchers so passengers have more incentive to give up their seats.
On Wednesday, Dao asked a Chicago-area court for an order requiring United and the city of Chicago to retain all recordings, video and reports of the incident, as well as the personnel files of the aviation department officials who pulled him from the flight, according to the Chicago Tribune.
Thomas A. Demetrio and Stephen L. Golan, attorneys representing Dao, said they planned to hold a news conference in Chicago on Thursday morning.
In his interview with ABC News, Munoz said he had reached out to Dao and left a message, but hasn’t yet been able to connect with the passenger.
When asked whether he believed Dao was at fault, Munoz hesitated before saying, “No, he can’t be. He was a paying passenger sitting in a seat in our aircraft, and no one should be treated that way, period."
I am worried about @osan and his 30 years of experience dealing with F50 companiesMunoz said the airline WILL conduct a “deep and thorough” review of many of its policies related to this
Actually not really
Can anyone say suicidal business policy.
Its seems idiotic CEO Oscar Munoz flunked business pre-101.
If not a single passenger thought a $1,000 voucher was fair compensation to give up their purchased seat at the very last minute, then it absolutely was not fair compensation. The proper thing for the airline to do if they want the seats back is to up the ante until one of the passengers finds the price fair. They should have offered a $1500 voucher.
To those who defend such stupid business practice because they claim it was in the fine print hidden away on some nebulous page of the website, aside from being a stupid business practice it also fails under the contract as well. This was not an "oversold" fight. UA wanted to boot passengers for other reasons, but not because it was "oversold" so the provision is completely inapplicable.
Further the "DENIED BOARDING" provision only applies to pre-boarding. It allows to deny boarding. Nothing in the provision allows United to rescind after boarding. United Airlines is the party that completely breached its own contract that it wrote. Even applying all the fine print, there was no breach by the customer.
Even if the provisions were applicable (and its not), there is still the business and marketing aspect. Put fine print hidden away in an adhesion contract that violates the reasonable expectation of customers, and you will indeed deservedly lose customers, lose goodwill and reputation, and get negative feedback. Duhhh.
Further the provision states UA would offer "compensation in an amount determined by UA", is completely meaningless for enforcement. It has no discernible determination at the time of sale. It is what is known in contract as an "illusory promise".
Lastly, reiterate that regardless of what they put in the fine print, this is stupid business practice and UA justly deserves all the consequential fallout it is receiving in the free market and realm of consumer opinion for its idiotic customer service policy. But then I guess Oscar Munoz wants United Airlines to be the next Pan Am, TWA, Northwest or Eastern.
Last edited by AZJoe; 04-13-2017 at 05:14 AM.
"Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
"War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.
Is there a special place in hell for corporate statists? I mean people who would oppose the state doing something but are perfectly fine when a corpo does that because of free markets and fine print?
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
You are drawing a non-sequitur. What you wrote here cannot be reasonably inferred from what I have written. The cops were called. By REPUBLIC AIRLINES. They called the cops in compliance with federal mandate and pursuant to their contractual rights as per the sales agreement into which the passenger had voluntarily entered.
As for the cops being rogue, that is likely true, but places no stain upon the carriers in question. If you want to do business in air transport, here is the $#@!-ton of rules and regulations with which you must comply. When I was a pilot, the FARs were about an inch or so thick. Now they are something like three inches thick, having grown that much since 1987, the last year for which I have time in the left seat. You can't fart out of regulation without facing stern consequences, even as a private pilot.
Isn't @Danke an ATP? Ask him about the mountain of feces that would pile upon his head for breaches of the FARs. The FAA are like ultimately frothy tyrants. For any airline to violate their rules and regulations is to incur large fines and other troubles. It's not like Republic had a choice in the matter, save to go out of business. Sure, they could have let the whole matter go. Then what? No crew for a whole aircraft's worth of passengers? Those kinds of scheduling losses can spiral into huge costs and other problems. Ferrying empty aircraft between cities is not cheap, nor is paying the crews.
And here's the money shot, as it were, where you make apparent your disregard for truth in preference for what appears to be some sort of hatred for either United or perhaps all air carriers. The possible reasons for this are large in number. Would you care to illuminate us as to the basis of your apparent ire?Here is the sound of the world's tiniest violin playing for UA.
freedomisobvious.blogspot.com
There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.
It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.
Our words make us the ghosts that we are.
Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.
Another day of hot trading expected for United Airlines - Continental Airlines Holdings, Inc.(Nasdaq: UAL) (CBOE equity options)
the parent owners in charge of the now famous United Express 3411,
and who will face eminent legal expenses and court battles. The jury selection process should occur maybe by the end of the year,
with venue in the United States District Court for the Northern District of Illinois.
Chicago's Aviation Police were called into action.
Last edited by Jan2017; 04-13-2017 at 07:52 AM.
Republic Airlines are considered a Codeshare Partner.
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/con...age.aspx#sec18RULE 18 SERVICE PROVIDED BY UNITED EXPRESS AND OTHER CODESHARE PARTNERS
UA has arrangements with certain other carriers to enable UA to provide Codeshare services to Passengers on flights operated by these carriers. Transportation provided by UA under a Codeshare arrangement with these carriers is designated by a flight number that includes UA’s two-letter airline designator code, “UA”. NOTE: For travel to or from the European Union and for reservations made in the European Union, UA will indicate the identity of the operating carrier at the time of reservation or as soon as administratively feasible.
For Codeshare services on flights operated by another carrier, UA is responsible for the entirety of the Codeshare journey for all obligations to Passengers established in these rules. The rules contained herein with respect to ticketing will apply to UA Codeshare services on flights operated by partner airlines. Notwithstanding the foregoing, the baggage liability provisions set forth in Rule 28 shall govern the liability of UA with respect to any transportation subject to this Contract.
When another foreign or U.S. Codeshare partner operates a flight on which UA’s designator code “UA” appears, the operating carrier’s contingency plan for lengthy tarmac delays will apply to that flight.
I guarantee you that Dao has been told by the lawyer who won the lottery to represent him in negotiations not to talk to anybody about the case.
What that dumbass should have said in the first place. They needed more seats for another flight crew? They could have bought that flight crew seats on another airplane if it came to that.When asked whether he believed Dao was at fault, Munoz hesitated before saying, “No, he can’t be. He was a paying passenger sitting in a seat in our aircraft, and no one should be treated that way, period."
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
United Airlines to refund fares to all Flight 3411 passengers
Passengers on United Express Flight 3411 will get a refund, United Airlines said Wednesday.
"All customers on Flight 3411 from Sunday, April 9, are receiving compensation for the cost of their tickets," United said in a statement
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2017/04/12/united-refund-fares-all-flight-3411-passengers/100384450/
United Continental Holdings Quote & Summary Data
UAL
$69.5 -0.43 -0.61%
*Delayed - data as of Apr. 13, 2017 9:39 ET
Last edited by Jan2017; 04-13-2017 at 08:02 AM.
Umm, the contract itself? The desires of shareholders? The fact that they are in the middle of a PR nightmare that appears to have no end in sight unless they change policy?
http://www.latimes.com/business/laza...412-story.htmlUnited passenger threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler
It’s hard to find examples of worse decision-making and customer treatment than United Airlines having a passenger dragged from an overbooked plane. But United’s shabby treatment of Geoff Fearns, including a threat to place him in handcuffs, comes close.
Fearns, 59, is president of TriPacific Capital Advisors, an Irvine investment firm that handles more than half a billion dollars in real estate holdings on behalf of public pension funds. He had to fly to Hawaii last week for a business conference.
Fearns needed to return early so he paid about $1,000 for a full-fare, first-class ticket to Los Angeles. He boarded the aircraft at Lihue Airport on the island of Kauai, took his seat and enjoyed a complimentary glass of orange juice while awaiting takeoff.
Then, as Fearns tells it, a United employee rushed onto the aircraft and informed him that he had to get off the plane.
“I asked why,” he told me. “They said the flight was overfull.”
Fearns, like the doctor at the center of that viral video from Sunday night, held his ground. He was already on the plane, already seated. He shouldn’t have to disembark.
“That’s when they told me they needed the seat for somebody more important who came at the last minute,” Fearns said. “They said they have a priority list and this other person was higher on the list than me.”
Apparently United had some mechanical troubles with the aircraft scheduled to make the flight. So the carrier swapped out that plane with a slightly smaller one with fewer first-class seats.
Suddenly it had more first-class passengers than it knew what to do with. So it turned to its “How to Screw Over Customers” handbook and determined that the one in higher standing — more miles flown, presumably — gets the seat and the other first-class passenger, even though he’s also a member of the frequent-flier program, gets the boot.
“I understand you might bump people because a flight is full,” Fearns said. “But they didn’t say anything at the gate. I was already in the seat. And now they were telling me I had no choice. They said they’d put me in cuffs if they had to.”
You couldn’t make this up if you tried.
It shouldn’t make any difference where a passenger is seated or how much he or she paid for their ticket. But you have to admire the sheer chutzpah of United putting the arm on a full-fare, first-class traveler. If there’s anybody whose business you want to safeguard and cultivate, it’s that person.
So how could United possibly make things worse? Not to worry. This is the airline that knows how to add insult to injury.
A United employee, responding to Fearns’ complaint that he shouldn’t have to miss the flight, compromised by downgrading him to economy class and placing him in the middle seat between a married couple who were in the midst of a nasty fight and refused to be seated next to each other.
“They argued the whole way back,” Fearns recalled. “Nearly six hours. It was a lot of fun.”
Back in Southern California, he consulted his lawyer and then wrote to United’s chief executive, Oscar Munoz, who commended airline workers after the passenger-dragging incident “for continuing to go above and beyond to ensure we fly right.”
Fearns requested a full refund for his flight from Kauai and asked for United to make a $25,000 donation to the charity of his choice. This is how rich guys do it.
He received an email back from a United “corporate customer care specialist” apologizing that Fearns apparently had an unpleasant experience. But, no, forget about a refund.
As for that charitable donation, what are you kidding? A hard no on that.
Instead, the service rep offered to refund Fearns the difference between his first-class ticket and an economy ticket — about a week later, as if that wasn’t the first thing they should do in a situation like this — and to give him a $500 credit for a future trip on the airline.
“Despite the negative experience, we hope to have your continued support,” the rep concluded. “Your business is especially important to us and we'll do our utmost to make your future contacts with United satisfactory in every respect.”
I reached out to United and asked if anyone cared to comment on Fearns’ adventure in corporate catastrophe. No one got back to me.
Julia Underwood, a business professor at Azusa Pacific University, said United’s actions in both the dragged-off-the-plane episode and with Fearns reflect a coldhearted mindset utterly devoid of compassion for customers.
“They’re so locked into their policies, there’s no room for empathy,” she said.
As a result, Underwood said, situations that should be manageable spiral out of control and result in unnecessarily messy PR disasters.
“What United and all companies need to do is to train and empower workers to deal with specific issues as they arise,” she said. “Don’t just follow whatever is written in your policies.”
I couldn’t agree more. United is neck-deep in trouble this week because its workers are clearly out of their depth in handling out-of-the-ordinary events. You have to think someone on the flight crew would have been able to step up, if given the trust and authority to do so by the carrier.
Fearns said three different members of the crew on his middle-seat, economy-class return to L.A. apologized for how he was treated in Hawaii. But they said they were unable to do anything.
He’s now considering a lawsuit against United — and he certainly has the resources to press his case.
I asked if he’ll ever fly United again.
Fearns could only laugh. “Are you kidding?”
Last edited by Danke; 04-13-2017 at 08:07 AM.
Pfizer Macht Frei!
Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.
Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!
Short Income Tax Video
The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes
The Federalist Papers, No. 15:
Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.
Regardless, there was a $ number somewhere out there that would have gotten them the seats they needed, they just wanted to strongarm instead.
Danke, who would have made the decision that was ultimately made to forcibly remove the passenger? I assume the pilot had nothing to do with the seat purchasing negotions or the ultimate decision? Or would he have? I haven't seen anything in the articles talking about who made the decisions or controls the voluntary phase. Or if they were put on leave or fired or retrained, etc.
I agree, I posted something similar earlier. Juleswin, who I mostly agree with, says this is a normal result of free market capitalism but I disagree. It's been my experience that the most heavily regulated businesses also have the worst customer service. I don't think that's a coincidence. One thing regulation tends to do is make the products being sold very similar, since they all have to comply with a minimum standard. The minimum tends to become the maximum. Since the products or services are so similar the only thing left up to competition is price. Another thing regulation does is drive up the cost. If a flight was $200 instead of $400, and the flight services were more varied, I'd bet more people would shop around for things other than price.
"may have"
but the limited service for the Chicago-Louisville route seems a reason to help Dr. Dao's case in the upcoming lawsuit -
"He wants to go home." "go home" [queue E.T. scene]
Looks like the wife (?) goes off the plane after he's dragged off ? An extra seat now available.
This is United's hub and the crew could have gotten to Chicago-Midway in an hour - ahead of the two-hour delayed flight
Last edited by Jan2017; 04-13-2017 at 08:11 AM.
Pfizer Macht Frei!
Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.
Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!
Short Income Tax Video
The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes
The Federalist Papers, No. 15:
Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.
Pfizer Macht Frei!
Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.
Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!
Short Income Tax Video
The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes
The Federalist Papers, No. 15:
Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.
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