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Thread: Russia to restrict the evangelism of non-Orthodox groups

  1. #1

    Russia to restrict the evangelism of non-Orthodox groups

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...-proposes.html

    Curious what any resident Eastern Orthodox think about this, and Hells_Unicorn both being a covenanter and generally following what goes on in EO circles, especially regarding "evangelicals."
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...-proposes.html

    Curious what any resident Eastern Orthodox think about this, and Hells_Unicorn both being a covenanter and generally following what goes on in EO circles, especially regarding "evangelicals."
    There are a lot of variables involved here that make this an imperfect analogy, but what is going on in Russia is actually similar to what was going on in England during the time of the 1st Reformation. Russian Orthodoxy is fighting a multi-front war against Islam and cults, the latter group including some groups that cropped out of America like the Mormons and the Jehova Witnesses, much as how the Anglican Church was dealing with Romanist threats as well as Independent fanatics. Things got extremely sketchy when the British Crown made an issue of trying to spread Anglicanism into Scotland against the 2nd Reformation, but the downside of the conflict that began as a rightful protest against degenerative liturgical innovations was that it became a license for the Savoy crowd to usher in a warped understanding of church government that had roughly the same effect as introducing liturgical errors.

    The problem here, and this can be seen in the way that certain EO individuals treat the topic of Protestantism, is that the Russian Orthodox Church does not make distinctions regarding Protestantism, they view the whole thing as either being tied to Romanism or to the various cults that sprang out of the Anabaptists. On the one hand, I sympathize with what they are doing because they have real problems in Russia with some of these cults, and unlike America where cult-creation/activity is celebrated as "freedom of religion", Russia is trying to maintain church cohesion both in doctrine and governance. Russia simply putting its foot down and saying enough is a prudent move. On the other, there are churches with Reformed and Lutheran confessions in nearby ex-federal nations like Ukraine, Romania, and so on that are under Russia's influence and may be affected by this. Putin seems to be a prudent man on the issue of religion and will probably take measured steps regarding churches that are ingrained in certain areas (like the Hungarian and German Churches in Transylvania), but it is a tricky situation.

    Honestly though, the wedge between the Reformed and the Eastern Orthodox has largely been caused by Jesuit mischief, and a great ally shared between both churches was lost when Cyril Lucaris was murdered by Islamic idolaters, and I have little doubt that Rome was behind that. The priority of the Reformed should be to continue stamping out the Western Antichrist in our midst (The Papacy) and stay out of the way of the Eastern Orthodox as they deal with the Eastern Antichrist (Islam). Any dialogue between the Reformed and the Eastern Church should be occurring in an official capacity between church leadership rather than us sending in missionaries to try and foment controversy. Russia has their own covenant with God and if reforms are to be made, they will most likely occur in a top-down fashion, which is basically how the Reformation was brought to Germany and then later England and Scotland.
    Last edited by hells_unicorn; 06-29-2016 at 09:05 PM.

  4. #3
    Personally "freedom of religion" means nothing to me, particularly for cultists of various kinds. Nevertheless I do question whether having a national church is actually useful when that church is OK with bowing down to idols (7th ecunemical council) and at best isn't exactly clear on sola fide. I also wondered if this could hurt anyone in the better parts of Protestantism (Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and in this case I also have to say Reformed Baptists). Do any of those groups stand to be significantly harmed by this or is it just cultists and Muslims who are going to bear the brunt of it?

    My thoughts were somewhat mixed as well, I know most of the other commentators are going to just be whining about "freedom of religion" right from the get-go, and contra most of America we know that doesn't work, but I do wonder if a Russian Orthodox church is going to be a net good. I'm also curious how Putin's going to use this thing. Interesting times indeed.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Personally "freedom of religion" means nothing to me, particularly for cultists of various kinds. Nevertheless I do question whether having a national church is actually useful when that church is OK with bowing down to idols (7th ecunemical council) and at best isn't exactly clear on sola fide. I also wondered if this could hurt anyone in the better parts of Protestantism (Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, and in this case I also have to say Reformed Baptists). Do any of those groups stand to be significantly harmed by this or is it just cultists and Muslims who are going to bear the brunt of it?

    My thoughts were somewhat mixed as well, I know most of the other commentators are going to just be whining about "freedom of religion" right from the get-go, and contra most of America we know that doesn't work, but I do wonder if a Russian Orthodox church is going to be a net good. I'm also curious how Putin's going to use this thing. Interesting times indeed.
    There is a realpolitik issue here that takes precedence over the Reformed objections to peculiarities in Eastern Orthodox liturgy. What is at issue here isn't what you see though, it's what about 50% (if not more, depending on which surveys you believe) of Russians who are affiliated with the Russian Church see. Nations are real, and if they have national confessions, they have a national church, errors in doctrine or not. In keeping with this, it is likewise important to understand that the magistrate has authority regardless of a flawed confession or even if the nation has not made a Christian confession (see Romans 13).

    Anyway, putting aside any disagreements we might have regarding of the relationship between magistracy and the church, Protestantism has an extremely small presence in Russia and has for most of history. In terms of numbers, Russian Orthodoxy has 2 principle domestic competitors, Islam and Atheism (the cults in question are small but extremely bothersome because of their zealous missionary activity). For added historical context, the Russian Orthodox never openly persecuted Protestants and the Czars allowed immigrant populations from Germany and elsewhere to settle in Moscow and maintain their congregations. By contrast, Islam's record in treatment of Christians needs little discussion between us, and the Atheistic regime under Lenin and later Stalin essentially annihilated the entire Reformed Church of Ukraine in one massive swoop.

    Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the welfare of remnants of Reformed and Lutheran churches in the region if the Communists started to make a comeback. Since Genghis Khan and the Golden Horde, atheism has been the biggest killer of Christians in history. It'd be nice to see more nations that are now coming back to Christ deal with the skepticism disease that has infected the world for the past several centuries, it is sorely needed.

  6. #5
    No, there are other things going on. Be careful with this stuff, people.

    Relevant reading... http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5783919

    Read the whole thread.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-29-2016 at 10:24 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    There is a realpolitik issue here that takes precedence over the Reformed objections to peculiarities in Eastern Orthodox liturgy. What is at issue here isn't what you see though, it's what about 50% (if not more, depending on which surveys you believe) of Russians who are affiliated with the Russian Church see. Nations are real, and if they have national confessions, they have a national church, errors in doctrine or not. In keeping with this, it is likewise important to understand that the magistrate has authority regardless of a flawed confession or even if the nation has not made a Christian confession (see Romans 13).

    Anyway, putting aside any disagreements we might have regarding of the relationship between magistracy and the church, Protestantism has an extremely small presence in Russia and has for most of history. In terms of numbers, Russian Orthodoxy has 2 principle domestic competitors, Islam and Atheism (the cults in question are small but extremely bothersome because of their zealous missionary activity). For added historical context, the Russian Orthodox never openly persecuted Protestants and the Czars allowed immigrant populations from Germany and elsewhere to settle in Moscow and maintain their congregations. By contrast, Islam's record in treatment of Christians needs little discussion between us, and the Atheistic regime under Lenin and later Stalin essentially annihilated the entire Reformed Church of Ukraine in one massive swoop.

    Honestly, I'd be more concerned about the welfare of remnants of Reformed and Lutheran churches in the region if the Communists started to make a comeback. Since Genghis Khan and the Golden Horde, atheism has been the biggest killer of Christians in history. It'd be nice to see more nations that are now coming back to Christ deal with the skepticism disease that has infected the world for the past several centuries, it is sorely needed.
    This seems pretty accurate to me, it could be better but this is going to be FAR better than either Soviet or Atheist or Muslim power.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    No, there are other things going on. Be careful with this stuff, people.

    Relevant reading... http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5783927

    Read the whole thread.
    I'm familiar with all of this stuff already and it was discussed in Covenanter meetings when it occurred. The U.S. Congress has been led by Jesuits successively for the past 10 years, so inviting one of their own (Francis I) to address Congress and pretend to be a friend while his agents continue to help this country rot itself to death from the inside is a telltale sign of where allowing these people to worm their way into elite positions in government leads. People who see some sort of parallel between the Russian Patriarch and The Papacy do not understand their history, and thinking that Rome and Russia have some sort of secret agreement to destroy the rest of the world and divide the spoils is up there with thinking that Martians built the pyramids.

    I have zero problems with the Russian Patriarch calling western civilization decadent, because that is an observation that could be made by any human being with an iota of rationality left in his being. When he starts musing over conquering western Europe and forcing everyone to adopt Eastern Orthodoxy the way that Muslims do Islam, give me a call.
    Last edited by hells_unicorn; 06-29-2016 at 10:33 PM.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...-proposes.html

    Curious what any resident Eastern Orthodox think about this, and Hells_Unicorn both being a covenanter and generally following what goes on in EO circles, especially regarding "evangelicals."
    You've spent quite a lot of effort on this forum advocating some pretty monstrous policies, under the premise that your theology is correct.

    Why would you expect something different from us?

    Yet I will give you something different. I don't agree with this law. Of course, I don't believe the state is even necessary, so of course I'm not going to agree with the law.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I'm familiar with all of this stuff already and it was discussed in Covenanter meetings when it occurred. The U.S. Congress has been led by Jesuits successively for the past 10 years, so inviting one of their own (Francis I) to address Congress and pretend to be a friend while his agents continue to help this country rot itself to death from the inside is a telltale sign of where allowing these people to worm their way into elite positions in government leads. People who see some sort of parallel between the Russian Patriarch and The Papacy do not understand their history, and thinking that Rome and Russia have some sort of secret agreement to destroy the rest of the world and divide the spoils is up there with thinking that Martians built the pyramids.

    I have zero problems with the Russian Patriarch calling western civilization decadent, because that is an observation that could be made by any human being with an iota of rationality left in his being. When he starts musing over conquering western Europe and forcing everyone to adopt Eastern Orthodoxy the way that Muslims do Islam, give me a call.

    Yeah, just keep an eye on the Geo-political chess board is all I'm saying. Playing 4D chess here. Not checkers. That's about all I'll add here. You guys can proceed with the topic as you wish. I just wanted to share that thread for perspective/backdrop.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-29-2016 at 10:48 PM.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    You've spent quite a lot of effort on this forum advocating some pretty monstrous policies, under the premise that your theology is correct.

    Why would you expect something different from us?
    I don't. I was curious what you guys thought about it. Not attacking I'm not a stupid leftist or a libertarian who pretends neutrality can be a thing.

    Yet I will give you something different. I don't agree with this law. Of course, I don't believe the state is even necessary, so of course I'm not going to agree with the law.
    *shrugs*
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  13. #11
    //In keeping with this, it is likewise important to understand that the magistrate has authority regardless of a flawed confession or even if the nation has not made a Christian confession (see Romans 13).//

    Just to side-note I agree with this as long as they punish the wicked and reward the righteous, and if those who are good need not be afraid of him (Romans 13:3-7.) While a Christian confession should be had, its not absolutely necessary to do this in some form.

    I reject the authority of tyrants and those who terrorize those who do righteousness though.

    And with that being stated as an ideal, Putin seems to be doing a lot better than we are.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    No, there are other things going on. Be careful with this stuff, people.

    Relevant reading... http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5783919

    Read the whole thread.

    Yeah especially post #12.

    Do you realize 50,000,000 Russian Christians were slaughtered by the Bolsheviks to stamp out Orthodoxy? I know that is just a meaningless statistic to many of you, but that is the will of your world.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    //In keeping with this, it is likewise important to understand that the magistrate has authority regardless of a flawed confession or even if the nation has not made a Christian confession (see Romans 13).//

    Just to side-note I agree with this as long as they punish the wicked and reward the righteous, and if those who are good need not be afraid of him (Romans 13:3-7.) While a Christian confession should be had, its not absolutely necessary to do this in some form.

    I reject the authority of tyrants and those who terrorize those who do righteousness though.

    And with that being stated as an ideal, Putin seems to be doing a lot better than we are.
    This is one of the reasons why I tend to approach this issue with greater care than when dealing with domestic concerns regarding morality. Likewise, Russia does not have an ingrained Reformed position from which they backslid, they were subject to a hostile takeover by non-Russian atheists and are still recovering from it. Dealing with a nation with no Reformed tradition is very different than dealing with a nation like America that has thrown off the Christian religion completely and has undermined Christianity in other countries.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/gle...-proposes.html

    Curious what any resident Eastern Orthodox think about this, and Hells_Unicorn both being a covenanter and generally following what goes on in EO circles, especially regarding "evangelicals."
    I haven't taken the time to fully read your article yet, but I have seen so much BS propaganda trying to plunge us into world war III with the Russians from all sides. Whether it's Syria, Gay rights, NC's BS, etc. I'll read it tomorrow, but from the surface it seems like a way to get "evangelicals" to get ready to carry the war banner since they are usually the most happy to do so in this country.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    NC's BS, etc. I'll read it tomorrow, but from the surface it seems...
    What I shared was not BS. It was news. And relevant news. While you're certainly free to take from it what you wish, I'd respectfully suggest that you be careful of your tone when mounting a challenge to me like that. Because you might just have to support your claim if I take issue with it. That's good advice. I'm not often aggressive. There is nothing to be had by it. In fact, I try to remain as passive as I can. But if you challenge me in that tone, again, you're going to have to finish what you started. And it won't end well. I'll make you look so underinformed that your head will spin. I promise. Try me.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 06-29-2016 at 11:13 PM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I haven't taken the time to fully read your article yet, but I have seen so much BS propaganda trying to plunge us into world war III with the Russians from all sides. Whether it's Syria, Gay rights, NC's BS, etc. I'll read it tomorrow, but from the surface it seems like a way to get "evangelicals" to get ready to carry the war banner since they are usually the most happy to do so in this country.
    I'm at least some type of establishmentarian so I'm not coming out swinging here. Evangelicals would attack anyone who opposes their Ameriolatry and pluralism, and if Russia decided to kick them all out for that reason I wouldn't really blame them. I'm more concerned (as HU mentioned) about the Reformed and Lutherans in Russia but as mentioned, there probably arent many.

    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    This is one of the reasons why I tend to approach this issue with greater care than when dealing with domestic concerns regarding morality. Likewise, Russia does not have an ingrained Reformed position from which they backslid, they were subject to a hostile takeover by non-Russian atheists and are still recovering from it. Dealing with a nation with no Reformed tradition is very different than dealing with a nation like America that has thrown off the Christian religion completely and has undermined Christianity in other countries.
    You have a point here. I agree with all of this.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    I haven't taken the time to fully read your article yet, but I have seen so much BS propaganda trying to plunge us into world war III with the Russians from all sides. Whether it's Syria, Gay rights, NC's BS, etc. I'll read it tomorrow, but from the surface it seems like a way to get "evangelicals" to get ready to carry the war banner since they are usually the most happy to do so in this country.
    You're probably right about this, Christianity Today is a Billy Graham founded Evangelical rag and is probably towing the Neo-con line on foreign policy. As far as I'm concerned, Russia can take whatever measures it needs to deal its own domestic concerns, and I applaud the steps they've taken to get sodomy and other sexual perversions out of their media. Half of these so-called Evangelical leaders are probably either closeted sodomites or pedophiles, and I'm personally going to make a point of calling out Christians trying to foment aggression with Russia over "religious freedom" issues.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    What I shared was not BS. It was news. And relevant news. While you're certainly free to take from it what you wish, I'd respectfully suggest that you be careful of your tone when mounting a challenge to me like that. Because you might just have to support your claim if I take issue with it. That's good advice. I'm not often aggressive. There is nothing to be had by it. In fact, I try to remain as passive as I can. But if you challenge me in that tone, again, you're going to have to finish what you started. And it won't end well. I'll make you look so stupid your head will spin. I promise. Try me.
    Meh

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    You're probably right about this, Christianity Today is a Billy Graham founded Evangelical rag and is probably towing the Neo-con line on foreign policy. As far as I'm concerned, Russia can take whatever measures it needs to deal its own domestic concerns, and I applaud the steps they've taken to get sodomy and other sexual perversions out of their media. Half of these so-called Evangelical leaders are probably either closeted sodomites or pedophiles, and I'm personally going to make a point of calling out Christians trying to foment aggression with Russia over "religious freedom" issues.
    Billy Graham is exceedingly heretical, and I think any Christian nation should forbid him from speaking. All of evangelicalism is weak but the Arminians are absolutely and totally worthless where either orthodoxy or basic morality is concerned. I don't have any evidence to accuse him of sodomy or pedophilia but he's definitelya tool like the rest of them.

    And to be clear, by asking about this I was NOT condoning neoconservative crap.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Meh
    That's a wise response, RJB. Have a good evening.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    That's a wise response, RJB. Have a good evening.
    You too wise one.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I'm at least some type of establishmentarian so I'm not coming out swinging here. Evangelicals would attack anyone who opposes their Ameriolatry and pluralism, and if Russia decided to kick them all out for that reason I wouldn't really blame them. I'm more concerned (as HU mentioned) about the Reformed and Lutherans in Russia but as mentioned, there probably arent many.
    Lutheranism and Reformed Christianity are sparsely situated mostly in urban and metropolitan parts of Russia, and most of it is practiced by people of non-Russian descent who have lived in Russia for generations. These churches probably aren't involved in a lot of evangelism efforts because their faith is likely passed through family and worship may still be conducted in these families' original native languages. The last time I was in Romania I took a tour of the city of Brasov (Transylvania) and visited the famed "Black Church", a Lutheran Church comprised almost exclusively of the descendants of German settlers.

    The greater issue is that Lutheranism is heavily present in the Baltic states and border states thereof (Latvia, Estonia, Finland) and some of these countries are in a very tenuous position because there is still strong support among some Russian nationalists to pull some of these countries back into the Russian federation. Culturally these countries were decimated by Bolshevism and are plagued with massive numbers of irreligious and atheistic socialists, so they are naturally fairly weak and may well end up being absorbed back into Russia, despite culturally being closer to being Scandinavian than Russian.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Billy Graham is exceedingly heretical, and I think any Christian nation should forbid him from speaking. All of evangelicalism is weak but the Arminians are absolutely and totally worthless where either orthodoxy or basic morality is concerned. I don't have any evidence to accuse him of sodomy or pedophilia but he's definitelya tool like the rest of them.

    And to be clear, by asking about this I was NOT condoning neoconservative crap.
    I know, I was exclusively reacting to RJB's concerns about the article, not remarking on anything that you've specifically stated here or elsewhere. My remarks about the Evangelicals/Arminian crowd is naturally speculative, but it is interesting to note that the churches that first embraced marrying sodomites in The Netherlands were all Arminian churches.

    I have a little saying I use in reference to Arminians.

    A man who says he is a Jesuit is a Jesuit telling the truth. A man who says he is an Arminian is a Jesuit who is lying to you.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    Lutheranism and Reformed Christianity are sparsely situated mostly in urban and metropolitan parts of Russia, and most of it is practiced by people of non-Russian descent who have lived in Russia for generations. These churches probably aren't involved in a lot of evangelism efforts because their faith is likely passed through family and worship may still be conducted in these families' original native languages. The last time I was in Romania I took a tour of the city of Brasov (Transylvania) and visited the famed "Black Church", a Lutheran Church comprised almost exclusively of the descendants of German settlers.

    The greater issue is that Lutheranism is heavily present in the Baltic states and border states thereof (Latvia, Estonia, Finland) and some of these countries are in a very tenuous position because there is still strong support among some Russian nationalists to pull some of these countries back into the Russian federation. Culturally these countries were decimated by Bolshevism and are plagued with massive numbers of irreligious and atheistic socialists, so they are naturally fairly weak and may well end up being absorbed back into Russia, despite culturally being closer to being Scandinavian than Russian.
    Yeah that's a concern as well. Thank you for solid analysis as usual. I didn't know what to think of this and this helped.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I know, I was exclusively reacting to RJB's concerns about the article, not remarking on anything that you've specifically stated here or elsewhere. My remarks about the Evangelicals/Arminian crowd is naturally speculative, but it is interesting to note that the churches that first embraced marrying sodomites in The Netherlands were all Arminian churches.
    Not surprising to me considering Arminianism isnt really theology so much as something that people make up to make themselves feel comfortable. So when condemning homosexuality became uncomfortable like Romans 9 used to be, what did they do?
    I have a little saying I use in reference to Arminians.

    A man who says he is a Jesuit is a Jesuit telling the truth. A man who says he is an Arminian is a Jesuit who is lying to you.
    I like this
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    The greater issue is that Lutheranism is heavily present in the Baltic states and border states thereof (Latvia, Estonia, Finland) and some of these countries are in a very tenuous position because there is still strong support among some Russian nationalists to pull some of these countries back into the Russian federation. Culturally these countries were decimated by Bolshevism and are plagued with massive numbers of irreligious and atheistic socialists, so they are naturally fairly weak and may well end up being absorbed back into Russia, despite culturally being closer to being Scandinavian than Russian.
    I've never been to Eastern Europe, but I find it strange how there's this notion in this thread that Russia and Orthodoxy are somehow synonymous.
    As far as I know I'm the only Orthodox Christian on this forum attending a "Russian" church, and the parish is actually under the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR), which was formed in the US as a response to the Bolsheviks taking control over the churches in Russia. TER attends a Greek church, HB attends an Antiochian church, and I'm sorry RJB but I've never found out where you're going. Last week I attended liturgy at my brother-in-law's parish, which is an Albanian church in Philadelphia.

    ROCOR still has problems with the churches in Russia as ROCOR still does not see them as having fully recovered (as HU hinted). And the situation in the US is an abject mess of immigrants all having started their own church bodies, which everyone today recognizes as a serious problem. This suggests Orthodoxy is something it is not - it is not a fractured mess. The POLITICS are an abject mess. But the Church is not.

    I received communion at my brother-in-law's Albanian church last week. I could visit TER at his Greek parish and would be welcomed to communion (after a short verification of who I am and where I'm from, I'm sure). My pastor was a chaplain in Iraq and Afghanistan, and was regularly holding liturgies for Ukrainians and other Orthodox Christians who were in Iraq, because they didn't have another Orthodox chaplain present. And he speaks no Ukrainian.

    (He has a touching story about how none of them came forward for communion, not one, because none of them had been to confession for a long time. So he had his translator announce to them that the language barrier made confession impossible, and that it was entirely possible it would be their last liturgy while they were alive... and he told them to come and receive communion, and that he would answer to God for it. And every one of them came forward.)

    In my own parish, this ostensibly Russian parish, there is exactly one person of Russian descent. There is one Greek woman, one Romanian woman, and three other occasional attendees from other parishes, who are of "ethnic Orthodox" descent, though not from Russia. The bulk of the parish is American mutt converts like me.

    And yet all of us mutts could fly to Russia or Greece or Romania or Bulgaria or Albania and, barring the language barrier, receive communion. And it's not like Lutheranism, where you can fly to Berlin and just waltz up to the rail at Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church and get communion with no questions asked (ask me how I know ). There are checks in place, to verify Orthodoxy.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  31. #27
    If you ain't the Satanic official state religion, you're just plain flat SOL.

  32. #28
    Ronin, please don't troll my thread.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Ronin, please don't troll my thread.
    Tell me what you mean specifically, and I'll seriously consider it. Deal?

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I've never been to Eastern Europe, but I find it strange how there's this notion in this thread that Russia and Orthodoxy are somehow synonymous.
    As far as I know I'm the only Orthodox Christian on this forum attending a "Russian" church, and the parish is actually under the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR), which was formed in the US as a response to the Bolsheviks taking control over the churches in Russia. TER attends a Greek church, HB attends an Antiochian church, and I'm sorry RJB but I've never found out where you're going. Last week I attended liturgy at my brother-in-law's parish, which is an Albanian church in Philadelphia.

    ROCOR still has problems with the churches in Russia as ROCOR still does not see them as having fully recovered (as HU hinted). And the situation in the US is an abject mess of immigrants all having started their own church bodies, which everyone today recognizes as a serious problem. This suggests Orthodoxy is something it is not - it is not a fractured mess. The POLITICS are an abject mess. But the Church is not.

    I received communion at my brother-in-law's Albanian church last week. I could visit TER at his Greek parish and would be welcomed to communion (after a short verification of who I am and where I'm from, I'm sure). My pastor was a chaplain in Iraq and Afghanistan, and was regularly holding liturgies for Ukrainians and other Orthodox Christians who were in Iraq, because they didn't have another Orthodox chaplain present. And he speaks no Ukrainian.

    (He has a touching story about how none of them came forward for communion, not one, because none of them had been to confession for a long time. So he had his translator announce to them that the language barrier made confession impossible, and that it was entirely possible it would be their last liturgy while they were alive... and he told them to come and receive communion, and that he would answer to God for it. And every one of them came forward.)

    In my own parish, this ostensibly Russian parish, there is exactly one person of Russian descent. There is one Greek woman, one Romanian woman, and three other occasional attendees from other parishes, who are of "ethnic Orthodox" descent, though not from Russia. The bulk of the parish is American mutt converts like me.

    And yet all of us mutts could fly to Russia or Greece or Romania or Bulgaria or Albania and, barring the language barrier, receive communion. And it's not like Lutheranism, where you can fly to Berlin and just waltz up to the rail at Kaiser Wilhelm Memorial Church and get communion with no questions asked (ask me how I know ). There are checks in place, to verify Orthodoxy.
    Uh, nobody made that statement, you simply imagined it in your own head. Greece is not instituting the policy in question because their head of state does not think he is the stand-in for the Emperor of Constantinople, and the same thing goes with other smaller orthodox nations such as Romania (I've been there multiple times), Ukraine and so on. I can't answer for why Lutheranism in Germany has degenerated so badly that it isn't checking the theology of those whom receive communion apart from the fact that it was overrun by Communists on one side and on the other was subjected to occupation by secular American culture, which was probably about as equally destructive to their churches, though in an outwardly less violent way.

    My point here regarding the Baltic states' situation is solely concerned with the Russian church and state. The only time I made a comparison was at the beginning when talking about how just about every Eastern Orthodox person here, you especially, seem unwilling or unable to make distinctions between Protestantism in its originalist form vs. modern Evangelicalism. I've spent half of my posts on this forum tearing apart what passes for Protestantism in both American and a few other western nations and I still get this whole "He's a Protestant, he doesn't know what Christianity was prior to the 16th century" B.S., and it's extremely off-putting.

    There are moments where I really feel like I'm wasting my time trying to be nuanced in my sentiments on these matters when almost nobody is willing to meet half-way.

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