All the Broken Toys

[pcosmar]

That is not an accurate portrayal of men. The Bible doesn't say that men are merely broken toys.

It is man's condition paraphrased.. And not just man,, but all of creation is tainted by Satan's presence here.
Bent and broken, and long from the perfection that it was.

Gods Creation. bent and corrupted. Broken Toys

I believe it to be an apt description.

[Sola_Fide]

It is man's condition paraphrased.. And not just man,, but all of creation is tainted by Satan's presence here.
Bent and broken, and long from the perfection that it was.

Gods Creation. bent and corrupted. Broken Toys

I believe it to be an apt description.

It's not a Biblical description.

A Biblical description would be that man is an enemy and is making war against the King. Man stormed into the King's castle, raped and murdered everyone, and the King sent His Son in to save some of these evil people knowing that His Son would die in the process of Him saving these evil people.

[RJB]

It's not a Biblical description.

A Biblical description would be that man is an enemy and is making war against the King. Man stormed into the King's castle, raped and murdered everyone, and the King sent His Son in to save some of these evil people knowing that His Son would die in the process of Him saving these evil people.

Just curious. How do dead men storm castles?

[Sola_Fide]

Just curious. How do dead men storm castles?

They are dead in sin. Meaning they are completely bent toward sin. In this sense, they are dead in the things that regard God or goodness.

[Christian Liberty]

Just curious. How do dead men storm castles?

I'm gonna assume you're being sincere and not snarky here.... in which case. Analogies are imperfect. They break down. We get it. However, some analogies are better than others at describing man's condition. The Biblical analogies feature man as wretchedly sinful and unable/unwilling to do anything but sin. We do NOT see this idea where man is "broken" (ie. basically good but just "sick" and needing a little "helping hand".) pcosmar defaults to that description because it makes man look better.

[pcosmar]

A Biblical description would be that man is an enemy and is making war against the King. Man stormed into the King's castle, raped and murdered everyone, and the King sent His Son in to save some of these evil people knowing that His Son would die in the process of Him saving these evil people.

well that convinced me.
You have some different god and a different bible.

[pcosmar]

I'm gonna assume you're being sincere and not snarky here....

I'll not be snarky..

What part of that paraphrase is in any way biblical?

and I have minor differences with many denominational teachings,, and yet common ground remains.

I am UN-Orthodox, irreligious, and formally uneducated. I believe that Jesus Christ died for me. Saved me from more than I fully know.

That I have in common with all believers.

I have issues with those that distort the simplicity of it.

[RJB]

I'm gonna assume you're being sincere and not snarky here.... in which case. Analogies are imperfect. They break down. We get it. However, some analogies are better than others at describing man's condition. The Biblical analogies feature man as wretchedly sinful and unable/unwilling to do anything but sin. We do NOT see this idea where man is "broken" (ie. basically good but just "sick" and needing a little "helping hand".) pcosmar defaults to that description because it makes man look better.

. No snark. Curious. I guessed that was the analogy. I just had to ask. You guys are the only Calvinist leaning folks I talk to.

[Christian Liberty]

. No snark. Curious. I guessed that was the analogy. I just had to ask. You guys are the only Calvinist leaning folks I talk to.

OK that's cool I assumed this was the case I just wanted to make sure.

Sola's analogy does break down at some point I understand (All analogies do... even the Biblical ones.... the parables themselves were usually intended to make one or two specific points and can be deconstructed if you try to read something into every detail) but I think Sola's analogy is more Biblical than the other one. Man is dead in the sense that he is unable and unwilling to respond to Christ's general call for all men to repent (this is distinct from an EFFECTUAL call which is Christ actively choosing to change a certain persons heart so they will trust in Christ's sacrifice for their salvation.) Basically the general call is like Christ shouting to the bones that they must get up and walk. The effectual call is Christ giving life to the bones, by dying himself and rising again, so that the bones can walk.

So is this unfair? Well no. Imagine all of the bones are suicidals. They're in their condition because they killed themselves. Does that make it seem a bit more reasonable?

Now there is a point where we have to start allowing divine mystery because we do say (as Romans 9 does) that God chooses both who will live and who will die, yet we say that those who die do so of their own free will and not because God forced them to. They did choose it and are responsible for it. Yet somehow God predestined it. God is fully sovereign, man is fully responsible. I don't think God has given us a full explanation. Nevertheless, often times people appeal to mystery as a cop out for what God HAS revealed. (For instance conservative Lutheranism [a group I do have some common ground with and respect for] errs in that they say double predestination is false and its a mystery how you can have single predestination and not double. I'd be fine with this if that was what scriptures say. But Romans 9 actually teaches double predestination. So its actually in the text. So rather I'd say where the mystery is is that yo have both double predestination and individual responsibility. I hope that helps some.

[Sola_Fide]

well that convinced me.
You have some different god and a different bible.

No Pete. I'm sure that you don't know the God of the Bible.

[pcosmar]

And looking for something else,, I find this.

https://www.prisonfellowship.org/201...ssouri-prison/


Just a bright spot at the end of the day.

[lilymc]

And looking for something else,, I find this.

https://www.prisonfellowship.org/201...ssouri-prison/


Just a bright spot at the end of the day.

That's so cool, thanks for the bright spot.

We did a prison ministry when I was doing missions in Baja. I'd love to do that again.

[pcosmar]

That's so cool, thanks for the bright spot.

We did a prison ministry when I was doing missions in Baja. I'd love to do that again.

Something else I am not allowed (I tried)

but it brings a personal joy to me to see.

[lilymc]

Something else I am not allowed (I tried)

but it brings a personal joy to me to see.

Who told you you couldn't do that? I would think that you would be better qualified than most, if you were once in their shoes.

[Christian Liberty]

No Pete. I'm sure that you don't know the God of the Bible.

I tend to say that the essential identifier of "same God" is basic trinitarianism and so as long as he worships the Father Son and Holy Spirit as three persons but only one God with the standard Christological definitions etc. I'd say that he does worship the same God in terms of essential definition, nevertheless his understanding of the gospel is seriously deficient which would lead me to question whether he is in right relation with the God which he attempts to worship.

[pcosmar]

Who told you you couldn't do that? I would think that you would be better qualified than most, if you were once in their shoes.

association with known Felons is/was prohibited.

My record keeps me off visitor lists.

I am a threat and a risk. (to those ruled by fear)

[pcosmar]

And after that, in the ninth week, the righteous judgement shall be revealed to the whole world,
b. And all the works of the godless shall vanish from all the earth,
c. And the world shall be written down for destruction.

And after this, in the tenth week in the seventh part,
There shall be the great eternal judgement,
In which He will execute vengeance amongst the angels.

And the first heaven shall depart and pass away,
And a new heaven shall appear,
And all the powers of the heavens shall give sevenfold light.

And after that there will be many weeks without number for ever,
And all shall be in goodness and righteousness,
And sin shall no more be mentioned for ever.

Just a thought to end the day on.

[Sola_Fide]

Just a thought to end the day on.

Pete, the book of Enoch is a first century forgery. It was not written by Enoch. We already went through this.

[pcosmar]

Pete, the book of Enoch is a first century forgery. It was not written by Enoch. We already went through this.

Then it should not concern you,,

It should not concern you because you firmly believe that you have no choice.

You are just a puppet on strings,, irresponsible and unable to do other than that which you are programed.

Be Gone.

[Christian Liberty]

Then it should not concern you,,

It should not concern you because you firmly believe that you have no choice.

You are just a puppet on strings,, irresponsible and unable to do other than that which you are programed.

Be Gone.

"irresponsible" is a strawman. The Biblical view is BOTH that God is sovereign AND that man is responsible for his actions, even while the fates of men are predestined. We let God be God and let God understand how that works, rather than leaning on our own understanding.

[pcosmar]

We let God be God and let God understand how that works, rather than leaning on our own understanding.

Or ,
You can ask,, and He will answer.

[Sola_Fide]

Or ,
You can ask,, and He will answer.

God speaks to man by His word in the Scriptures, not any other way. If you are hearing a voice in your head, it's not the Lord.

[pcosmar]

God speaks to man by His word in the Scriptures, not any other way. If you are hearing a voice in your head, it's not the Lord.

not in my head.

So I tell you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.…

However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

All the teachings of men make no difference once you have seen the truth. even just a small piece of it.

[Sola_Fide]

not in my head.




All the teachings of men make no difference once you have seen the truth. even just a small piece of it.

But you see the truth that men can't choose, yet you reject it. Why?

[pcosmar]

But you see the truth that men can't choose, yet you reject it. Why?

WTF?

take your confusion elsewhere.

[pcosmar]

Just curious. How do dead men storm castles?

I was wondering how someone could twist the bible story into that,, as little sense as it was.

[Sola_Fide]

WTF?

take your confusion elsewhere.

Romans 9:16

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


What is confusing about that?

[Natural Citizen]

Romans 9:16

So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.


What is confusing about that?

Unconditional or predestined election of The Individual's spiritual salvation is not in any way, shape, or form, the subject of Romans 9. It was about God's right to judge the nation of Israel.

I'm out of neg for you, though, ya (mod edit).

[Sola_Fide]

Unconditional or predestined election of The Individual's spiritual salvation is not in any way, shape, or form, the subject of Romans 9. It was about God's right to judge the nation of Israel.

I'm out of neg for you, though, ya hack.

If it is for nations, why does the verse in question use personal pronouns?

[euphemia]

@ Sola 2 Timothy 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but must be kind to everyone...

Have your own threads, listen to the crickets, and leave the rest of us alone.