What changing attitudes have you noticed in your average leftist voter?

[RJ Liberty]

This is pretty out of date. I haven't heard the left say anything anti-war in almost a decade..

The Left holds anti-war protests in the US every week. The corporate media no longer covers these events, and you have simply lost touch with your former Green Party colleagues.

I used to vote Green Party because they were anti-war, anti war on drugs, pro civil liberties. I still liked the economics of the right, but that was all they had going for them and they weren't doing anything with it.

Now Republicans are much more balanced on war, compared to the left, and they are pro-legalization of herb.

Actually, of the seven marijuana bills in Congress this year, most were sponsored by the Democrats. Rand co-sponsored S.1374 with a Democrat, but most of the people in Congress supporting marijuana legalization are still Democrats.

As for Republicans being "more balanced on war", if that were the case, we wouldn't be involved in a half a dozen wars between 2016 and 2018, when the Republicans controlled both branches of Congress and the Executive Branch.

[acptulsa]

We tend to surround ourselves in echo chambers.

Through work and some other endeavors I am exposed to a pretty large swath of the general public.

Most of these folks I have utterly nothing in common with.

I don't have that much in common with most people regardless of their affiliation. That's what usually gives people like you and me a more realistic perspective.

I don't care to be manipulated.

The next time you speak to a Democrat, try remembering that the same media which is trying to convince you that they're secretly Antifa members is trying to convince them you're either a skinhead or a member of Westboro Baptist Church. You might just find that helps you power out if that rut the MSM dug for you to get stuck in.

Unless you like being manipulated.

[Anti Federalist]

You go off on these media-fueled rants, and I think back to a time before the trumpcucks chased everyone away from here. And for every angry leftist like Kade there were at least half a dozen SnappleLlamas, Little_Light_Shinings and FlightlessKiwis.

I don't agree.

There were plenty of "rightists" that have left as well, FrankRep or Josh_in_LA or LbertyEagle.

People continue to argue their point of view.

Fedbook and social media of all sorts killed the online forum, so they no longer do it here.

That's why our merry little band of Refuseniks has grown so small.

[acptulsa]

I don't agree.

There were plenty of "rightists" that have left as well, FrankRep...

Banned.

...or Josh_in_LA...

Not sure I can help with that one. Was that the 9/11 Denier?

or LbertyEagle.

Here just yesterday trying yet again to drive Rev3.0 off.

[Anti Federalist]

I don't have that much in common with most people regardless of their affiliation. That's what usually gives people like you and me a more realistic perspective.

I don't care to be manipulated.

The next time you speak to a Democrat, try remembering that the same media which is trying to convince you that they're secretly Antifa members is trying to convince them you're either a skinhead or a member of Westboro Baptist Church. You might just find that helps you power out if that rut the MSM dug for you to get stuck in.

Unless you like being manipulated.

You've "known" me now for over ten years.

You've read countless posts and rants and observations of mine.

Do you honestly think, just by virtue of being here, that I'm prone to following the "accepted" ideas and thoughts of the MSM or the zietgiest as a whole?

Don't you think that, in talking to democrats, that I have attempted to do just what you say?

C'mon brother, that's condescending and insulting to think otherwise.

We just disagree on this.

[acptulsa]

We just disagree on this.

Don't get me wrong. I know they're being trained to make scary noises. And there could certainly be geographic differences involved.

But I don't want their game to succeed. How do we stop playing it and short-circuit it instead?

[Ender]

Don't get me wrong. I know they're being trained to make scary noises. And there could certainly be geographic differences involved.

But I don't want their game to succeed. How do we stop playing it and short-circuit it instead?

You just said it:

Stop Playing.

If we concentrate on real liberty values/issues and stop spreading the hate, I think we could attract many more to the cause of freedom.

[acptulsa]

You just said it:

Stop Playing.

If we concentrate on real liberty values/issues and stop spreading the hate, I think we could attract many more to the cause of freedom.

Where? Reason is being spammed right off this forum, and it's against the rules on the big sites.

Got a rooftop to shout from?

[Ender]

Where? Reason is being spammed right off this forum, and it's against the rules on the big sites.

Got a rooftop to shout from?

Doesn't mean we don't fight back but learning what's a real issue & what's being promoted for TPTB is important. Also, calling out the haters here is an absolute for the forum to survive with Ron Paul ethics.

[kahless]

There are some good sides of the "Left" (unless you're talking about their politicians.)

Generally, they are opposed to corporate welfare (unless you consider subsidizing corporate labor, then they're all for it).
Generally, they are anti-war (unless the war is portrayed as being for humanitarian reasons)
Generally, they want to keep the government out of the bedroom
Generally, they are more socially and culturally accepting (unless that culture is one that they deem to be "oppressive", then they get all rabidly oppressive themselves)
Generally, they're supportive of the Nordic models (oops, only the free $#@! part - not the free trade and low regulation part)

Still, I think there are opportunities there. I could make the same kind of list for the "right".

2008 above, the good old days.
2018 below.

They support corporate welfare for ideologically Progressive corporations.
They support war in Syria, Russia and wherever else Trump is against going to war. They are for war even if it risks a WIII type total annihilation of the world. If Trump is for war in a region, they are against war in that region.
They want government in the personal lives of white males.
They are socially and culturally accepting to everyone except white males, particularly old white males which they rabidly hate.
They are supportive of full blown Soviet models.

[angelatc]

I agree it exist, but when I here "corporate welfare" from the left, it always seems to be about tax "breaks."

They have no problem at all with using our troops for regime changes overseas. There may be a faction of them who lean Libertarian on foreign policy but it's not a majority.

The entire philosophy is based on need and greed. The whole point of government guns is to force people to do as you want.

[RJB]

2008 above, the good old days.
2018 below.

They support corporate welfare for ideologically Progressive corporations.
They support war in Syria, Russia and wherever else Trump is against going to war. They are for war even if it risks a WIII type total annihilation of the world. If Trump is for war in a region, they are against war in that region.
They want government in the personal lives of white males.
They are socially and culturally accepting to everyone except white males, particularly old white males which they rabidly hate.
They are supportive of full blown Soviet models.

There are sheep in the Democratic party who go wherever the media wind blows, same with Republicans. There is also the peace wing and neocon wing in the Democratic party, same as Republicans.

ETA:. I do lean substantially more Republican.

[Danke]

Most of these folks I have utterly nothing in common with.

I don't have that much in common with most people regardless of their affiliation.

We know, we know...













me too.

[RJB]

We know, we know...













me too.

Despite difference on opinions on this forum, we do share weird outlooks. Except for me of course.

[Danke]

Despite difference on opinions on this forum, we do share weird outlooks. Except for me of course.

Ya, you're a Normie.

[RJB]

Ya, you're a Normie.

From you, I will take that as a compliment.

[kahless]

...a time before the trumpcucks chased everyone away from here.

You mean you and the anti-Trumpers viciously attacked half the members of this forum since some Paul supporters simply agreed with some of things Trump was saying. Those who were not attacked saw no reason to stick around in a forum dominated by those pushing Progressive ideology against a small minority of those on the right fighting against it.

btw - before anyone says again acptulsa has been here since 2008, well I have been pointing out since 2008 his tactic of defending some Progressive issue in the news cycle and then backing off pretending to be some Libertarian in a few posts. I do not have a problem with anyone being Progressive posting here, the problem is being dishonest about it to the point he is attacking others for not being Libertarian enough which is clearly a scam.

[Cleaner44]

No part of the left is "against the state." The entirety of the left worships it. As does the majority of the right. But, at least within the right there is a tiny minority that is against the state in the size it has grown into. No one on the left thinks that the government is too big. Not a one.

This. The left is the cult of BIG GOVT and they are fully brainwashed.

At least the right now has a degree of being friendly to libertarian conservatives again.

As much as the politicians of both parties conspire together, there is a clear difference in the voters. Some Republican voters want smaller government. Zero Democrats want smaller government.

What changing attitudes have you noticed in your average leftist voter?

I have noticed that the average left voter now thinks anyone that isn't a lefty must be a racist nazi.

[CaptUSA]

You mean you and the anti-Trumpers viciously attacked half the members of this forum since some Paul supporters simply agreed with some of things Trump was saying. Those who were not attacked saw no reason to stick around in a forum dominated by those pushing Progressive ideology against a small minority of those on the right fighting against it.

btw - before anyone says again acptulsa has been here since 2008, well I have been pointing out since 2008 his tactic of defending some Progressive issue in the news cycle and then backing off pretending to be some Libertarian in a few posts. I do not have a problem with anyone being Progressive posting here, the problem is being dishonest about it to the point he is attacking others for not being Libertarian enough which is clearly a scam.

Um, I consider acptulsa to be an individualist who understands the real principles of liberty. He is unconcerned with the left/right paradigm that permeates most discussion here. Sorry, that you are unable to recognize that.

[dannno]

The Left holds anti-war protests in the US every week. The corporate media no longer covers these events, and you have simply lost touch with your former Green Party colleagues.









Actually, of the seven marijuana bills in Congress this year, most were sponsored by the Democrats. Rand co-sponsored S.1374 with a Democrat, but most of the people in Congress supporting marijuana legalization are still Democrats.

As for Republicans being "more balanced on war", if that were the case, we wouldn't be involved in a half a dozen wars between 2016 and 2018, when the Republicans controlled both branches of Congress and the Executive Branch.

Wrong..

I live in a city that used to have anti-war protests regularly.. there was an anti-war memorial down at the wharf. They have been largely inactive for the last 10 years, the memorial is gone.

That is great there is a group in DC that is still anti-war, but it looks like about a dozen people and I doubt they were all on the left.

Republicans are still relatively balanced w/ Democrats on war, and I think a good argument could be made they are better now.. Bush started the wars, and started arming the extremists so they could fight sovereign nations in proxy-wars. Obama kicked it up a couple notches, started some new wars and armed the extremists even more than Bush so they could fight our proxy-wars. Trump came in and took out the extremists who we had funded to fight our proxy-wars. He hasn't started any new wars. IMO, he has had the best performance on foreign policy for these reasons. The trolls will deny and just count the bombs dropped, but they aren't considering that all the destruction and violence ISIS did was our responsibility and now they are largely gone.. If you go back to the threads where we were talking about Obama funding ISIS, you will see a lot of those same trolls defending Obama and saying we are conspiracy theorists for thinking that the US was funding ISIS.

[kahless]

Um, I consider acptulsa to be an individualist who understands the real principles of liberty. He is unconcerned with the left/right paradigm that permeates most discussion here. Sorry, that you are unable to recognize that.

Someone that understood the real principles of liberty would not have run half the people out of this forum in personal attacks. He would rather educate them on the values of liberty rather than referring to people as "trumpcucks" above.

[RJB]

Wrong..

I live in a city that used to have anti-war protests regularly.. there was an anti-war memorial down at the wharf. They have been largely inactive for the last 10 years, the memorial is gone.

That is great there is a group in DC that is still anti-war, but it looks like about a dozen people and I doubt they were all on the left.

Republicans ARE still balanced w/ Democrats on war.. Bush started the wars, and started arming the extremists so they could fight sovereign nations in proxy-wars. Obama kicked it up a couple notches, and armed the extremists even more than Bush so they could fight our proxy-wars. Trump came in and took out the extremists who we had funded to fight our proxy-wars. He hasn't started any new wars. IMO, he has had the best performance on foreign policy for these reasons. The trolls will deny and just count the bombs dropped, but they aren't considering that everything ISIS did was our responsibility and now they are largely gone.

I noticed the antiwar left dried up after Obama announced that he was withdrawing "combat troops" from Iraq. I've met some who are in strong denial.

[Cleaner44]

You just said it:

Stop Playing.

If we concentrate on real liberty values/issues and stop spreading the hate, I think we could attract many more to the cause of freedom.

I hate to say it but the cause of freedom is a lost cause. Ron was wrong, freedom isn't popular. Authoritarian government is popular. We are and will always be in the tiniest minority unfortunately.

[CaptUSA]

Someone that understood the real principles of liberty would not have run half the people out of this forum in personal attacks. He would rather educate them on the values of liberty rather than referring to people as "trumpcucks" above.

I've used that term as well. It describes people that we thought understood the principles of liberty but fell under the spell of an authoritarian conman whose only real concern is growing the power of his government. It's a sickness that afflicts many in here. Giving the sickness a derogatory name may not be the most mature thing to do, but it's done to get those folks out of their own denial and to prevent others from becoming infected.

[CaptUSA]

I hate to say it but the cause of freedom is a lost cause. Ron was wrong, freedom isn't popular. Authoritarian government is popular. We are and will always be in the tiniest minority unfortunately.

Everyone wants freedom for themselves; it's the other guy that they want controlled.

[timosman]

I hate to say it but the cause of freedom is a lost cause. Ron was wrong, freedom isn't popular. Authoritarian government is popular. We are and will always be in the tiniest minority unfortunately.

Should I jump off a bridge now or should I jump off later?

[kahless]

dupe

[kahless]

I've used that term as well. It describes people that we thought understood the principles of liberty but fell under the spell of an authoritarian conman whose only real concern is growing the power of his government. It's a sickness that afflicts many in here. Giving the sickness a derogatory name may not be the most mature thing to do, but it's done to get those folks out of their own denial and to prevent others from becoming infected.

Yeah that is smart, after seeing the Neocons and the left completely fail in that tactic you decide to continue following the same pattern. Then you will post all miffed why this forum is a shell of what it was and why Libertarians are losing the information war.

[dannno]

I hate to say it but the cause of freedom is a lost cause. Ron was wrong, freedom isn't popular. Authoritarian government is popular. We are and will always be in the tiniest minority unfortunately.

I've used that term as well. It describes people that we thought understood the principles of liberty but fell under the spell of an authoritarian conman whose only real concern is growing the power of his government. It's a sickness that afflicts many in here. Giving the sickness a derogatory name may not be the most mature thing to do, but it's done to get those folks out of their own denial and to prevent others from becoming infected.

The authoritarianism would be MUCH worse if Hillary and the left had gotten control, that's what you are losing site of and why people here don't buy that you guys are such big fans of liberty. If you were fans of liberty, you would want us to have the most amount of liberty possible rather than throwing it all away and becoming part of a global socialist oligarchy dictatorship.

Nobody here who likes Trump would be giving him support if we lived in a free society with our Constitution functioning. If our congress was full of Massie's, our Supreme Courts full of Judge Naps and our President was Rand and we had a peaceful foreign policy then Trump is the last thing anybody here would want.. The reason people like Trump is because he is the best weapon to defend what we are up against. If you don't understand what that is (what we are up against), then you are either naive or you ARE a part of what we are up against and you are just pretending not to know.

In fact, Trump is a businessman.. if our government was small and we lived in a free society, you couldn't pay Trump enough to become a politician. These are things you guys don't really think about or understand.

[CaptUSA]

The authoritarianism would be MUCH worse if Hillary and the left had gotten control, that's what you are losing site of and why people here don't buy that you guys are such big fans of liberty. If you were fans of liberty, you would want us to have the most amount of liberty possible rather than throwing it all away and becoming part of a global socialist oligarchy dictatorship.

Ugh, again, with the lesser of two evils argument.

You see why we get frustrated?

You seem to think it's better to jog towards tyranny instead of sprinting. I don't share that view.

What I do recognize was that if Hillary was President we would be united in our opposition to the authoritarianism. Instead, we have a vocal portion of these forums cheering it on.