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Thread: Left Hellbent To Defend MS-13

  1. #1
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    Left Hellbent To Defend MS-13

    Talk about Jumping the Shark for the protocommies. Now if the mainstream Right could only backtrack & examine why MS-13 exists.




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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Talk about Jumping the Shark for the protocommies. Now if the mainstream Right could only backtrack & examine why MS-13 exists.
    Fast and furious?

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Fast and furious?
    Thank our friends at the State Department.

    https://www.rt.com/usa/417537-very-a...-origins-ms13/

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Thank our friends at the State Department.

    https://www.rt.com/usa/417537-very-a...-origins-ms13/
    Examining history and understanding the background of an issue is not a politician job. We have a problem and we need to do something NOW! This strategy is guaranteed not to fail.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Fast and furious?
    School of the Americas.

    http://www.soaw.org/presente/content...50/74/lang,en/
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  7. #6
    Opposing the attempt by people like the OP to paint all immigrants as gangsters is not defending the gangsters.

    It's no different than opposing the "blame all whites" rhetoric of black nationalists that crops up whenever a white person kills a black person.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 05-18-2018 at 10:18 AM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Opposing the attempt by people like the OP to paint all immigrants as gangsters is not defending the gangsters.

    It's no different than opposing the "blame all whites" rhetoric of black nationalists that crops up whenever a white person kills a black person.
    IOU a rep.

    I am really not sure how to put this in a way that makes it more clear.

    The problem is NOT immigration. The problem is NOT MS-13.

    The problem is LAW ENFORCEMENT.

    MS-13 exists in this country because law enforcement allows it to. The people whose job everyone thinks it is to do something about this are the same people who cower outside of a high school while a pasty, unbalanced, untrained, drugged up teenager murders his classmates.

    The people who are "supposed to" be doing something about this are the ones that have multiple officers confront and then strangle to death men who are doing no harm to anyone.

    What's the realistic percentage of illegal immigrants who belong to MS-13? It's maximum 10,000 out of 20 million - roughly 0.05%.

    What's the realistic percentage of cops who are completely unwilling to confront the problem? News flash - it's 100%.

    So because policing is a completely failed model of law enforcement - which is abundantly evident given the fact that MS-13 even exists here - we're going to try to stop the other 99.95% of "illegal" immigrants from coming here - by tasking the same failed police model with making that work?

    There is ZERO difference between stopping people at the border on the miniscule chance they might end up being part of a gang, and kicking over little girls' lemonade stands or stopping churches from feeding homeless people.

    Both are "preventative" measures. Both belong in the garbage and for the exact same reason. They DO NOT WORK.

    It would be bad enough if you copsuckers were just preventing the root problem from being addressed. It would be bad enough if all this was, was making excuses for the fact that cops are an unnecessary and violent burden we have to bear who do nothing to mitigate problems like MS-13.

    But that's not all you're doing. You're actively calling for the root problem to be exacerbated. You're calling for an expansion of preventative law enforcement.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  9. #8
    Here's another one - there is also zero distinction between these two statements.

    "We need to stop people at the border so they don't become criminals."
    "We need to pass gun control because people are breaking the gun laws we already have."
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Opposing the attempt by people like the OP to paint all immigrants as gangsters is not defending the gangsters.

    It's no different than opposing the "blame all whites" rhetoric of black nationalists that crops up whenever a white person kills a black person.
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Here's another one - there is also zero distinction between these two statements.

    "We need to stop people at the border so they don't become criminals."
    "We need to pass gun control because people are breaking the gun laws we already have."


    The op didn't claim that. Read it. Watched the vid. Nothing about all immigrants are gangsters. Actually, timo and goldwater say law enforcement - the just us dept - are to blame for MS-13.

    *sorry, State Dept.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post

    The problem is LAW ENFORCEMENT.

    MS-13 exists in this country because law enforcement allows it to.
    Key quote,,
    More people need to get this..

    MS13 was created by Law Enforcement. By the US Government..
    Trained by the US Government.

    This is Ollie North crap coming home.

    edit to note,,
    Fusion Centers in this country(every state) coordinate the gang activity.

    prove me wrong
    Last edited by pcosmar; 05-18-2018 at 11:46 AM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Opposing the attempt by people like the OP to paint all immigrants as gangsters is not defending the gangsters.

    It's no different than opposing the "blame all whites" rhetoric of black nationalists that crops up whenever a white person kills a black person.
    Nobody is trying to paint all immigrants as gangsters.

    Trump was asked about MS-13, he replied that they are animals. Trump never said that all immigrants are animals, he never said all immigrants are gangsters. Only people with TDS believe the bull$#@! you are spewing.


    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    The op didn't claim that. Read it. Watched the vid. Nothing about all immigrants are gangsters. Actually, timo and goldwater say law enforcement - the just us dept - are to blame for MS-13.

    *sorry, State Dept.
    I read the article mentioned below, and it does offer some nuance that's largely absent from the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    Thank our friends at the State Department.

    https://www.rt.com/usa/417537-very-a...-origins-ms13/
    However, in the Video at the top of this page, Carlson says:
    The media tell you every day that every immigrant, legal or not is a future brain surgeon or tech company founder: therefore immigration controls are unnecessary. If they admit that MS-13 is actually bad and must be stopped, they'd have to also admit that when some countries send their people here, they aren't sending their best. A lot of immigrants are great, for sure: some of them are rapists, though... some of them join MS-13, that's just true. They're not all the same because people aren't all the same. That's the point of our immigration law. They're not the same. We should sort the good from the bad.


    The rest of the video after that, from 3:42 on, is pro-immigration claptrap.

    This is the sentiment echoed on this forum regularly by people who are responding on this thread. And that is what I was responding to when I pointed out factually that there is no inherent difference between immigration law and any other preventative law enforcement measure.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    This is Ollie North crap coming home.
    And now he's the man in charge of "making sure we keep our gun rights".
    This country looks more and more like an assylum as time goes on.
    I have to keep telling myself that it has always been this way, and the only difference is that now they can't stop us seeing it.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  16. #14
    I really doubt North would have much to say about states that have a policy of prosecuting people who kill MS-13 members invading their homes.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Trump was asked about MS-13, he replied that they are animals. Trump never said that all immigrants are animals, he never said all immigrants are gangsters. Only people with TDS believe the bull$#@! you are spewing.
    We get it, Trump got "Pope Benedicted". He didn't say that.
    That should be the point, but Tucker goes too far in using that lie as an anti-immigration talking point.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  18. #16
    Ok Danno... I'll marginally publicize (and paraphrase) your rep comment to keep the discussion going.
    I can see that r3v made an accusation that was unfounded. Nobody here is calling them all criminals.

    I think r3v might agree with this sentiment though: Whether you're using the criminal element to demonize the people themselves, or using it to demonize open borders, is kind of immaterial. Both statements exist in the same logic bucket. I myself conflate them regularly, but based on your feedback, I will aim not to in the future.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I read the article mentioned below, and it does offer some nuance that's largely absent from the discussion.



    However, in the Video at the top of this page, Carlson says:
    [/B]

    The rest of the video after that, from 3:42 on, is pro-immigration claptrap.

    This is the sentiment echoed on this forum regularly by people who are responding on this thread. And that is what I was responding to when I pointed out factually that there is no inherent difference between immigration law and any other preventative law enforcement measure.

    I just thought of an analogy may help you understand where we are coming from.

    You made the point that stopping people from crossing the border so they don't commit crimes is like putting gun control in place so people don't commit gun crimes.

    Imagine if we had hundreds of state and local municipalities in this country who, instead of giving out welfare, gave away guns and ammo that contained depleted uranium and the bullets exploded the depleted uranium everywhere. Not a weapon for defensive purposes.

    Already, parts of the country are being destroyed and becoming uninhabitable thanks to this government program that of course needs to be stamped out but unfortunately is actually nearly impossible to stamp out because it is distributed throughout all these individual smaller government entities (why? can't tell you.. it's irrational.. but so is socialism.. so bare with me)..

    So a President comes in and says we need to ban these guns and ammo and destroy them because it is going to completely destroy the country in the longrun.

    Of course the "libertarian" answer is to end the government programs giving away the guns and ammo that contain depleted uranium. But if you can't do that, are there not other measures that can be taken that are sub-optimal but that lead to a more desired outcome?

    Of course the "libertarian" answer is to get rid of socialism, not close off the border. But ending socialism is not in the cards, and we have found there are other measures that are sub-optimal but that will lead to a more desired outcome, which means more liberty, in the future.
    Last edited by dannno; 05-18-2018 at 12:07 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  21. #18


    lol


  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I just thought of an analogy may help you understand where we are coming from.

    You made the point that stopping people from crossing the border so they don't commit crimes is like putting gun control in place so people don't commit gun crimes.

    Imagine if we had hundreds of state and local municipalities in this country who, instead of giving out welfare, gave away guns and ammo that contained depleted uranium and the bullets exploded the depleted uranium everywhere. Not a weapon for defensive purposes.

    Already, parts of the country are being destroyed and becoming uninhabitable thanks to this government program that of course needs to be stamped out but unfortunately is actually nearly impossible to stamp out because it is distributed throughout all these individual smaller government entities.

    So a President comes in and says we need to ban these guns and ammo and destroy them because it is going to completely destroy the country in the longrun.

    Of course the "libertarian" answer is to end the government programs giving away the guns. But if you can't do that, are there not other measures that can be taken that are sub-optimal but that lead to a more desired outcome?

    Of course the "libertarian" answer is to get rid of socialism, not close off the border. But ending socialism is not in the cards, and we have found there are other measures that are sub-optimal but that will lead to a more desired outcome, which means more liberty, in the future.
    Yes there are other options. I'll say that I think the JBP solution would fit here: "Clean up your damned room".

    I think the FSP has the right idea, but is lacking in execution details. I think if libertarians could just pick a county, one county, and actually have an agenda, that would make a meaningful difference.

    Something like step 1: all previous law enforcement agencies will be abolished, and a new one formed which will eschew professionals, be purely reactionary, respect human rights, recognize crimes as only those actions which have victims, obstruct superior agencies who are not like-minded, and above all, not $#@! around at all when dealing with actual criminals.

    I think MS-13 wouldn't choose to operate in a county where there's such a thing as a wanted poster that says "subject has refused to answer 5 previous warrants for violent crime, public is advised to shoot on sight. $10,000 reward, tax free."

    As we've seen in this thread, the larger entities are the origin of the problem. Smaller entities CAN be the solution.
    Last edited by fisharmor; 05-18-2018 at 12:16 PM.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    I just thought of an analogy may help you understand where we are coming from.
    Nope,, doesn't .

    it is a lot of fear mongering as an excuse to ditch principles.

    and I ,,along with several others, am curious about your conversion from libertarian to Trumpa Lumpa.

    Inexplicable is the best descriptor,, but curious,
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  24. #21
    Account Restricted. Admin to review account standing


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    The left has been tricked into defending the most vile subset of the immigration Caravan in the Form of Ms-13. That's the irony in all this. They have rushed to defend a predatory organization that disproportionately preys upon immigrants and others at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Nope,, doesn't .

    it is a lot of fear mongering as an excuse to ditch principles.

    and I ,,along with several others, am curious about your conversion from libertarian to Trumpa Lumpa.

    Inexplicable is the best descriptor,, but curious,
    Well I posted about 120 hours of Molyneux videos that explained it in great detail, but most people just said they were too long to watch.

    Basically I'm anti-establishment.

    Think about it. You are taking CNN's side every time. I'm arguing against CNN. Not to mention neocons, you are arguing on the same side as neocons and the establishment. How can you argue against that?
    Last edited by dannno; 05-18-2018 at 12:27 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    The left has been tricked into defending the most vile subset of the immigration Caravan in the Form of Ms-13. That's the irony in all this. They have rushed to defend a predatory organization that disproportionately preys upon immigrants and others at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum.
    Not quite so. There is hope MS-13 members can become upstanding citizens if we spend enough money on them. Trump supporters on the other hand ....

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Yes there are other options. I'll say that I think the JBP solution would fit here: "Clean up your damned room".

    I think the FSP has the right idea, but is lacking in execution details. I think if libertarians could just pick a county, one county, and actually have an agenda, that would make a meaningful difference.

    Something like step 1: all previous law enforcement agencies will be abolished, and a new one formed which will eschew professionals, be purely reactionary, respect human rights, recognize crimes as only those actions which have victims, obstruct superior agencies who are not like-minded, and above all, not $#@! around at all when dealing with actual criminals.

    I think MS-13 wouldn't choose to operate in a county where there's such a thing as a wanted poster that says "subject has refused to answer 5 previous warrants for violent crime, public is advised to shoot on sight. $10,000 reward, tax free."

    As we've seen in this thread, the larger entities are the origin of the problem. Smaller entities CAN be the solution.

    Did you watch Wild Wild Country?

    They were fairly libertarian, but the leader of the community was kind of a psychopath.. they went out and built their own community in the middle of nowhere in Oregon in the early 80s, they even built a damn with hydroelectric power to power their community. Then the town tried to make them tear it all down over land-use, so they took over the town government. Then they had to contend with the county, so they bussed in homeless people from all over the country so they could get enough votes to take over the county. There was terrorism, possible false flags, attempted murder of politicians, wow, crazy drama!!! On top of it all they were essentially a sex religion/cult (they just had more free market, entrepreneurial tendencies)

    It would be interesting to try and do something like that tho.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Well I posted about 120 hours of Molyneux videos that explained it in great detail,
    ah, well that might explain it..

    couldn't stand that idiot years ago.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    ah, well that might explain it..

    couldn't stand that idiot years ago.
    Ya, I hate when people constantly argue for the free market, against the police state, against all of our foreign wars of aggression, against the federal reserve, against gun control. Those people bother me to no end.

    We need to make sure to talk as much $#@! on those people as possible.

    Maybe we should start an anti-Molyneux website to tell people about what a horrible person he is for arguing for freedom constantly.
    Last edited by dannno; 05-18-2018 at 12:50 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  31. #27
    Breaking:



    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ya, I hate when people constantly argue for the free market, against the police state, against all of our foreign wars of aggression, against the federal reserve, against gun control. Those people bother me to no end.

    We need to make sure to talk as much $#@! on those people as possible.

    Maybe we should start an anti-Molyneux website to tell people about what a horrible person he is for arguing for freedom constantly.
    That already exists. Rev3.0 has a link.
    Last edited by Raginfridus; 05-18-2018 at 12:52 PM.

  32. #28
    All kidding aside, years ago many people did not like Molyneux because he was atheist and argued against spanking children.

    I can't control people's sexual fetishes for children, but I will say that Molyneux has done hours and hours worth of videos about how horrible atheists are in general and hours and hours of videos with people like Dr. Duke Pesta who are Christian theologists on the topic of Christianity. So his videos are themed much more pro-Christianity now than they were (I think he is agnostic now). He's still anti-spanking tho..
    Last edited by dannno; 05-18-2018 at 12:55 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Did you watch Wild Wild Country?

    They were fairly libertarian, but the leader of the community was kind of a psychopath.. they went out and built their own community in the middle of nowhere in Oregon in the early 80s, they even built a damn with hydroelectric power to power their community. Then the town tried to make them tear it all down over land-use, so they took over the town government. Then they had to contend with the county, so they bussed in homeless people from all over the country so they could get enough votes to take over the county. There was terrorism, possible false flags, attempted murder of politicians, wow, crazy drama!!! On top of it all they were essentially a sex religion/cult (they just had more free market, entrepreneurial tendencies)

    It would be interesting to try and do something like that tho.
    Maybe not? You touch on an interesting aspect of the human psyche - a fear of being exploited by a psychopath. This drives everybody towards a non-psychopathic government.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Ya, I hate when people constantly argue for the free market, against the police state, against all of our foreign wars of aggression, against the federal reserve, against gun control. Those people bother me to no end.

    We need to make sure to talk as much $#@! on those people as possible.

    Maybe we should start an anti-Molyneux website to tell people about what a horrible person he is for arguing for freedom constantly.
    You can Suck his narcissistic dick.. He talks a lot of $hit with a few valid points thrown in for the suckers.
    I can't stand to listen long enough for anything worthwhile.

    sorry if it hurts your feelings,,I can't stand your boyfriend.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

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