Should individuals be allowed to refuse a COVID vaccine?"

[r3volution 3.0]

Ask the people who make and break them. I'm just a guy minding my own business.

Do you think that you would be equally able to mind your own business in North Korea and Switzerland?

[PAF]

Are there any costs or risks involved in violating the law?

If not, then I suppose one can live just as well in North Korea as in Switzerland, since the legal differences are irrelevant?

I have traveled extensively around the world and apply Agorism wherever I go. Yes, of course there are costs/risks. I noted in my above post the link, skim Page 46 and the next few pages, which covers "risk versus reward".

The alternative is to post on a message board while waiting for politicians to grant you their permission. I am too free-spirited and far too active, even at my age, to wait around for hell to freeze over.

It truly is a great life-style, but it has to come from within and practiced.

[r3volution 3.0]

I have traveled extensively around the world and apply Agorism wherever I go. Yes, of course there are costs/risks. I noted in my above post the link, skim Page 46 and the next few pages, which covers "risk versus reward".

The alternative is to post on a message board while waiting for politicians to grant you their permission. I am too free-spirited and far too active, even at my age, to wait around for hell to freeze over.

The blow that I'm trying to strike, amidst all the dodging and weaving, is that ignoring the law is not a viable strategy for advancing liberty. It's always possible for some people to sometimes evade some laws, and more power to you, I have no objection at all, but that's not going to change the big picture. Let me put it another way. If your goal is simply to marginally reduce the impact on yourself or certain other brave souls willing to take these risks, okay, but if you think this kind of strategy is going to make humanity in general more free, you're mistaken.

[Anti Federalist]

Try operating anywhere in the country without various licenses...in 2019.

I like how no one objected to any of this until now (i.e. until it very directly effected them personally).

Oh come on, people here including myself, have been bitching about government licensing for years now.

[Contumacious]

Statism
noun
the principle or policy of concentrating extensive economic, political, and related controls in the state at the cost of individual liberty


Agorism
a social philosophy that advocates creating a society in which all relations between people are voluntary exchanges by means of counter-economics


I Do Not Consent to Communism or Fascism, therefore, I will not pick lessers of evil. That would violate my principles, as well as initiating force against others.


An Agorist Primer

WUT?

If you are still a resident of these US of A you have given TACIT CONSENT.

That it somehow soothes your conscience that you voted for none of the above will make the experience no less painful.

But as you get older you will become pragmatic and cynical. You will also find out the reason not even the KGB could control the black market.

Ces’t La Vie,

.

[PAF]

The blow that I'm trying to strike, amidst all the dodging and weaving, is that ignoring the law is not a viable strategy for advancing liberty. It's always possible for some people to sometimes evade some laws, and more power to you, I have no objection at all, but that's not going to change the big picture. Let me put it another way. If your goal is simply to marginally reduce the impact on yourself or certain other brave souls willing to take these risks, okay, but if you think this kind of strategy is going to make humanity in general more free, you're mistaken.

Let's start small.

Years ago my mother harped on me to get a "burning permit" to burn in the back of my yard. I saw no logical reason to pay for a permit only to abide by the permit's rules, on my own property. So I burned as I felt necessary. My neighbor and I (school administrator) were having a brew on the back deck and we talked about it. It made sense to him, so he opted out also. Next thing ya know, after talking with more of my neighbors, none of them got the permits either. Advance a year, a cop drove by for something or other and happened to see my neighbor and I both burning on a non-designated day. The end result was, the cop said he wasn't enforcing the permit because too many people were no longer purchasing them.

That is a single example. We can go on to bigger risk, which isn't a risk for me, I haven't registered/inspected the bike in years, I think going on a decade now. I was pulled over a couple of times, but after explaining that I didn't have an Avon sticker on my bike and was not involved in interstate commerce, I am freely let go.

[r3volution 3.0]

Oh come on, people here including myself, have been bitching about government licensing for years now.

Certainly, but the average GOPer hasn't.

Why the sudden interest on their part, do you think?

Have they been enthused with the libertarian spirit, or are they just jumping on the partisan-tribal bandwagon, that to be abandoned as soon as the partisan stars realign? On a totally unrelated note, where were the anti-war Dems during the Obama administration, or the fiscal conservative GOPers the last four years?

[Origanalist]

Oh come on, people here including myself, have been bitching about government licensing for years now.

I know, right? Tis laughable.

[Ender]

Oh come on, people here including myself, have been bitching about government licensing for years now.

Same. I've been telling peeps for ages that most licenses are completely unconstitutional & certainly unlawful. A license should only be for something that would otherwise be illegal.

A drivers/marriage/business license is complete garbage.

[Origanalist]

Do you think that you would be equally able to mind your own business in North Korea and Switzerland?

I don't live in North Korea or Switzerland and I doubt I would be allowed into either country.

[r3volution 3.0]

Let's start small.

Years ago my mother harped on me to get a "burning permit" to burn in the back of my yard. I saw no logical reason to pay for a permit only to abide by the permit's rules, on my own property. So I burned as I felt necessary. My neighbor and I (school administrator) were having a brew on the back deck and we talked about it. It made sense to him, so he opted out also. Next thing ya know, after talking with more of my neighbors, none of them got the permits either. Advance a year, a cop drove by for something or other and happened to see my neighbor and I both burning on a non-designated day. The end result was, the cop said he wasn't enforcing the permit because too many people were no longer purchasing them.

That is a single example. We can go on to bigger risk, which isn't a risk for me, I haven't registered/inspected the bike in years, I think going on a decade now. I was pulled over a couple of times, but after explaining that I didn't have an Avon sticker on my bike and was not involved in interstate commerce, I am freely let go.

Burning permit, bike registration...

I'll ask you the same question I asked Origanalist:

Do you think that you would be equally able to mind your own business in North Korea and Switzerland?

If the law truly does not matter, because it can be avoided, what difference would it make?

[r3volution 3.0]

I don't live in North Korea or Switzerland and I doubt I would be allowed into either country.

Alright, let's see if PAF is willing to answer a simple question.

[PAF]

Burning permit, bike registration...

I'll ask you the same question I asked Origanalist:

Do you think that you would be equally able to mind your own business in North Korea and Switzerland?

If the law truly does not matter, because it can be avoided, what difference would it make?

I haven't been to North Korea or Switzerland, but I am so accustomed to this lifestyle I wouldn't think twice about it. I guess I would have to absorb whatever costs once I weighed out the risk.

I have been to Mexico more times than I can count, eventually I will retire there. My amigo's know exactly how I am, even the Feds in those areas which I am on good terms with, and believe it or not, they live more like an Agorist than most people here in the states. Maybe that's why the news media considers them a "lawless country". They don't want people knowing about it in order to skirt taxes here. In my experience, people are much happier, help one another, always work no matter the conditions, which is why I will relocate to there.

I have also been to Costa Rica extensively, once I did get caught and fined, so I was a tad more more cautious the next time I went. It didn't stop me.

Rev3, I've got many examples, too many to list. The idea that we are slaves just doesn't jive with my core.

[r3volution 3.0]

I haven't been to North Korea or Switzerland, but I am so accustomed to this lifestyle I wouldn't think twice about it. I guess I would have to absorb whatever costs once I weighed out the risk.

I have been to Mexico more times than I can count, eventually I will retire there. My amigo's know exactly how I am, even the Feds in those areas which I am on good terms with, and believe it or not, they live more like an Agorist than most people here in the states. Maybe that's why the news media considers them a "lawless country". They don't want people knowing about it in order to skirt taxes here. In my experience, people are much happier, help one another, always work no matter the conditions, which is why I will relocate to there.

I have also been to Costa Rica extensively, once I did get caught and fined, so I was a tad more more cautious the next time I went. It didn't stop me.

Rev3, I've got many examples, too many to list. The idea that we are slaves just doesn't jive with my core.

Simple question to get to the heart of the matter:

--Do you think that you would be able to live as freely in North Korea as you do now?

[pcosmar]

If the law truly does not matter, because it can be avoided, what difference would it make?

Laws can always be avoided. or negated.

Morals and Principles are far more binding..

You might know that if your only focus was not MONEY.

That may work fine in the Ferengi Alliance.. Humans are more than that.

[jmdrake]

The blow that I'm trying to strike, amidst all the dodging and weaving, is that ignoring the law is not a viable strategy for advancing liberty. It's always possible for some people to sometimes evade some laws, and more power to you, I have no objection at all, but that's not going to change the big picture. Let me put it another way. If your goal is simply to marginally reduce the impact on yourself or certain other brave souls willing to take these risks, okay, but if you think this kind of strategy is going to make humanity in general more free, you're mistaken.

The more people realize they can live without the state the fewer people will be clamoring for more laws to control other people. The problem we have now is that both sides seek to control other people's lives and think that it's the other guys that are the statists. Look at Trump's first pick for AG, Jeff Sessions. He was roundly praised by fake "small government" types on talk radio who only wanted to shrink government when Obama was president.

Or look at the threads on "Should a business be able to require you to take a vaccine?" As people learn to build their own free communities, what one corporation wants to do to you in order for you come inside their stores becomes less relevant.

[PAF]

Simple question to get to the heart of the matter:

--Do you think that you would be able to live as freely in North Korea as you do now?

People adapt to whatever surrounding they are in. It has a lot to do with what is in one's inner core, and how badly he/she wants something. I am sure that if I ever had the opportunity to visit North Korea, I would examine the environment that I was in, and do a "risk versus reward" analysis to maximize my freedom, or way to make a buck.

Like here, I have done wiring jobs in Mexico to make a few bucks. I never applied or asked for a permit/license, I just did the job and got paid. Sure, a local govt. official could barge in and charge me with something, but I really don't think about things like that. I make sure everything works, collect my money, and go on to having a good time usually with friends. My reference to Costa Rica, I was doing some work at one of the piers and the official who caught me didn't like it, saying it took the job away from the locals. I paid something like US$30 in a fine, was very strongly warned not to do it again, and then went on my way.

Similar to Puerto Rico - one section is considered dangerous, another more relaxed. I have been to both areas and have adapted to both.

Is there something specific that you are trying to get at? Am I missing something?

[r3volution 3.0]

The more people realize they can live without the state the fewer people will be clamoring for more laws to control other people. The problem we have now is that both sides seek to control other people's lives and think that it's the other guys that are the statists. Look at Trump's first pick for AG, Jeff Sessions. He was roundly praised by fake "small government" types on talk radio who only wanted to shrink government when Obama was president.

Or look at the threads on "Should a business be able to require you to take a vaccine?" As people learn to build their own free communities, what one corporation wants to do to you in order for you come inside their stores becomes less relevant.

I'd summarize the political situation as follows: everybody's a socialist now, and this will end badly.

[r3volution 3.0]

People adapt to whatever surrounding they are in. It has a lot to do with what is in one's inner core, and how badly he/she wants something. I am sure that if I ever had the opportunity to visit North Korea, I would examine the environment that I was in, and do a "risk versus reward" analysis to maximize my freedom, or way to make a buck.

Like here, I have done wiring jobs in Mexico to make a few bucks. I never applied or asked for a permit/license, I just did the job and got paid. Sure, a local govt. official could barge in and charge me with something, but I really don't think about things like that. I make sure everything works, collect my money, and go on to having a good time usually with friends. My reference to Costa Rica, I was doing some work at one of the piers and the official who caught me didn't like it, saying it took the job away from the locals. I paid something like US$30 in a fine, was very strongly warned not to do it again, and then went on my way.

Similar to Puerto Rico - one section is considered dangerous, another more relaxed. I have been to both areas and have adapted to both.

Is there something specific that you are trying to get at? Am I missing something?

Yes, you're missing the plain fact that state policy matters, a lot, notwithstanding the fact that some laws can sometimes be evaded.

[pcosmar]

I'd summarize the political situation as follows: everybody's a socialist now, and this will end badly.

It will end Gloriously. but that is a point of Perspective.

[PAF]

Yes, you're missing the plain fact that state policy matters, a lot, notwithstanding the fact that some laws can sometimes be evaded.

Other than the state taking my hard-earned money, how does that affect me? Which is why I try to "starve the state" the best that I can - Yet another example, I drive 2 hours to the next state over, head to the Indian Res and buy my smokes for $12 bucks a carton ($144 for 12 cartons which lasts me a couple of months) - they are exempt from paying state tax.

If more folks did that, and understood why, think where we'd be.

Rev3, it starts with me. Otherwise I would be voluntarily funding the state while complaining about it. Doesn't make sense.


EDIT: Do you think me voting is going to cause politicians to relinquish power and then step down? Do you think me voting is going to change the hearts and minds of the American people?

I live by action, not words.

[DamianTV]

First thing.

Our Rights DO NOT COME FROM GOVERNMENT. Nor do they come from the Constitution.

The Constitution only lists the Rights that we already have. Government does NOT grant Rights. That is an Inversion of the Definition. The definition of a Right is that you have it because you exist. A Permission is something granted to you by someone else. Whether it is a Govt, figure of authority, or your neighbor is mute point.

Do NOT EVER ask for Permission to "have a Right" because by the time you are fed up enough to say no, it is already too late.

The idea of "being allowed" is an idea that we are "getting Permission" to refuse a vaccine. In reality it is the other way around. We might grant govt "Permission" to give us a vaccine. We also might not. That is up to each individual.

This is HOW we have gone so wrong. They have inverted our thinking to say "we have permission to refuse" when really it needs to be WE THE PEOPLE granting or denying permission to the govt to do what ever the $#@! it wants. We have come to a point in the course of American History where people no longer think as a Soverign Self Owning Citizen, but a slave.

Slavery begins in the mind and ends with the benefactors murdering their constituents. Govt is the MOST DANGEROUS RELIGION. So I think EVERYONE should recognize their REAL Self Authority that it is not up to the govt to grant or deny permission to accept or refuse. It is impossible to free fools from the chains they revere. But soon I wont be "allowed" to say that because Inversion Thinking says that my previous statement is entirely racist, or some other some such verbal diarrhea that these mouth diapers fail entirely to contain in the $#@! for brains Leftists.

@Brian4Liberty - Notice the phrasing reflects your thinking. I know you are much better than the way this statement was phrased. We need to be sure to free as many minds as possible, including each others when we fall into their traps. So just a reminder for EVERYONE to think as a Free Man would think and act.

We can never have more liberty than we are willing to give to others.

[PAF]

First thing.

Our Rights DO NOT COME FROM GOVERNMENT. Nor do they come from the Constitution.

The Constitution only lists the Rights that we already have. Government does NOT grant Rights. That is an Inversion of the Definition. The definition of a Right is that you have it because you exist. A Permission is something granted to you by someone else. Whether it is a Govt, figure of authority, or your neighbor is mute point.

Do NOT EVER ask for Permission to "have a Right" because by the time you are fed up enough to say no, it is already too late.

The idea of "being allowed" is an idea that we are "getting Permission" to refuse a vaccine. In reality it is the other way around. We might grant govt "Permission" to give us a vaccine. We also might not. That is up to each individual.

This is HOW we have gone so wrong. They have inverted our thinking to say "we have permission to refuse" when really it needs to be WE THE PEOPLE granting or denying permission to the govt to do what ever the $#@! it wants. We have come to a point in the course of American History where people no longer think as a Soverign Self Owning Citizen, but a slave.

Slavery begins in the mind and ends with the benefactors murdering their constituents. Govt is the MOST DANGEROUS RELIGION. So I think EVERYONE should recognize their REAL Self Authority that it is not up to the govt to grant or deny permission to accept or refuse. It is impossible to free fools from the chains they revere. But soon I wont be "allowed" to say that because Inversion Thinking says that my previous statement is entirely racist, or some other some such verbal diarrhea that these mouth diapers fail entirely to contain in the $#@! for brains Leftists.

@Brian4Liberty - Notice the phrasing reflects your thinking. I know you are much better than the way this statement was phrased. We need to be sure to free as many minds as possible, including each others when we fall into their traps. So just a reminder for EVERYONE to think as a Free Man would think and act.

We can never have more liberty than we are willing to give to others.

BINGO WAS HIS NAME - OH! ++++ REP!

@r3volution 3.0 perhaps this is what you were looking for.

[r3volution 3.0]

BINGO WAS HIS NAME - OH! ++++ REP!

@r3volution 3.0 perhaps this is what you were looking for.

We're in agreement PAF about what people should be able to do.

Or, in other words, we're in agreement about ends; we just disagree as to the best means of achieving those ends.

I'm simply pointing out that the men with the guns, who say that we cannot do X, do in fact have the ability to enforce that order.

Hence, ignoring them, or even trying to evade them quietly, is not a very good solution.

If it were, this whole liberty business would be easy, wouldn't it?

[Brian4Liberty]

Should individuals be allowed to refuse a COVID vaccine?

H/t to pcosmar...



Poll allows more than one selection.

First thing.

Our Rights DO NOT COME FROM GOVERNMENT. Nor do they come from the Constitution.

The Constitution only lists the Rights that we already have. Government does NOT grant Rights. That is an Inversion of the Definition. The definition of a Right is that you have it because you exist. A Permission is something granted to you by someone else. Whether it is a Govt, figure of authority, or your neighbor is mute point.

Do NOT EVER ask for Permission to "have a Right" because by the time you are fed up enough to say no, it is already too late.

The idea of "being allowed" is an idea that we are "getting Permission" to refuse a vaccine. In reality it is the other way around. We might grant govt "Permission" to give us a vaccine. We also might not. That is up to each individual.

This is HOW we have gone so wrong. They have inverted our thinking to say "we have permission to refuse" when really it needs to be WE THE PEOPLE granting or denying permission to the govt to do what ever the $#@! it wants. We have come to a point in the course of American History where people no longer think as a Soverign Self Owning Citizen, but a slave.

Slavery begins in the mind and ends with the benefactors murdering their constituents. Govt is the MOST DANGEROUS RELIGION. So I think EVERYONE should recognize their REAL Self Authority that it is not up to the govt to grant or deny permission to accept or refuse. It is impossible to free fools from the chains they revere. But soon I wont be "allowed" to say that because Inversion Thinking says that my previous statement is entirely racist, or some other some such verbal diarrhea that these mouth diapers fail entirely to contain in the $#@! for brains Leftists.

@Brian4Liberty - Notice the phrasing reflects your thinking. I know you are much better than the way this statement was phrased. We need to be sure to free as many minds as possible, including each others when we fall into their traps. So just a reminder for EVERYONE to think as a Free Man would think and act.

We can never have more liberty than we are willing to give to others.

BINGO WAS HIS NAME - OH! ++++ REP!

@r3volution 3.0 perhaps this is what you were looking for.

Perhaps the subtlety was lost. No, definitely the subtlety was lost.

If you follow pcosmar’s link in the OP, you will find yourself in a thread titled: “Should businesses be allowed to require a covid vaccine”.

This thread title was taken from that title. Thus, any implications from the wording of the title originated with that thread. Congratulations Damian, you win the chocolate factory.

[r3volution 3.0]

It will end Gloriously. but that is a point of Perspective.

In the very long run, yes, it will.

In our lifetimes....I'd curb my enthusiasm.

[r3volution 3.0]

Other than the state taking my hard-earned money, how does that affect me? Which is why I try to "starve the state" the best that I can - Yet another example, I drive 2 hours to the next state over, head to the Indian Res and buy my smokes for $12 bucks a carton ($144 for 12 cartons which lasts me a couple of months) - they are exempt from paying state tax.

If more folks did that, and understood why, think where we'd be.

Rev3, it starts with me. Otherwise I would be voluntarily funding the state while complaining about it. Doesn't make sense.


EDIT: Do you think me voting is going to cause politicians to relinquish power and then step down? Do you think me voting is going to change the hearts and minds of the American people?

I live by action, not words.

Let's break it down to make it real simple.

The federal government wastes several trillion dollars per year, yes?

Whatever it is you're doing does not prevent that from happening, yes?

Therefore, whatever you're doing, however helpful it might be for you on the margin, is not solving the problem.

Yes?

[Ender]

First thing.

Our Rights DO NOT COME FROM GOVERNMENT. Nor do they come from the Constitution.

The Constitution only lists the Rights that we already have. Government does NOT grant Rights. That is an Inversion of the Definition. The definition of a Right is that you have it because you exist. A Permission is something granted to you by someone else. Whether it is a Govt, figure of authority, or your neighbor is mute point.

Do NOT EVER ask for Permission to "have a Right" because by the time you are fed up enough to say no, it is already too late.

The idea of "being allowed" is an idea that we are "getting Permission" to refuse a vaccine. In reality it is the other way around. We might grant govt "Permission" to give us a vaccine. We also might not. That is up to each individual.

This is HOW we have gone so wrong. They have inverted our thinking to say "we have permission to refuse" when really it needs to be WE THE PEOPLE granting or denying permission to the govt to do what ever the $#@! it wants. We have come to a point in the course of American History where people no longer think as a Soverign Self Owning Citizen, but a slave.

Slavery begins in the mind and ends with the benefactors murdering their constituents. Govt is the MOST DANGEROUS RELIGION. So I think EVERYONE should recognize their REAL Self Authority that it is not up to the govt to grant or deny permission to accept or refuse. It is impossible to free fools from the chains they revere. But soon I wont be "allowed" to say that because Inversion Thinking says that my previous statement is entirely racist, or some other some such verbal diarrhea that these mouth diapers fail entirely to contain in the $#@! for brains Leftists.

@Brian4Liberty - Notice the phrasing reflects your thinking. I know you are much better than the way this statement was phrased. We need to be sure to free as many minds as possible, including each others when we fall into their traps. So just a reminder for EVERYONE to think as a Free Man would think and act.

We can never have more liberty than we are willing to give to others.

^^^THIS^^^

[PAF]

Let's break it down to make it real simple.

The federal government wastes several trillion dollars per year, yes?

Whatever it is you're doing does not prevent that from happening, yes?

Therefore, whatever you're doing, however helpful it might be for you on the margin, is not solving the problem.

Yes?

Yes, the federal government wastes several trillion dollars per year.

It is up to each individual to take personal responsibility. I can only be responsible for myself.

Whatever I do, small or large, has some affect, whether noticeable or not.

Aside from putting to practice my own individual lifestyle, I also activate to help educate others. Whether here in these 2 states at our liberty meetings, or abroad in other countries, I make it a point to talk about liberty, freedom and fiscal responsibility. I explain how debt=slavery, and how it degrades society as a whole. Some get it, some don't, but that goes with the territory.

There are no easy answers or solutions. I have stated many times that liberty can only come from within. My goal is to reach the ones that may have it, but have not realized it yet. These words having meaning to me: With liberty comes responsibility. My responsible contribution is to help show the way. Does that not help in any way, shape or form in solving a problem?

[r3volution 3.0]

Yes, the federal government wastes several trillion dollars per year.

It is up to each individual to take personal responsibility. I can only be responsible for myself.

Whatever I do, small or large, has some affect, whether noticeable or not.

Aside from putting to practice my own individual lifestyle, I also activate to help educate others. Whether here in these 2 states at our liberty meetings, or abroad in other countries, I make it a point to talk about liberty, freedom and fiscal responsibility. I explain how debt=slavery, and how it degrades society as a whole. Some get it, some don't, but that goes with the territory.

There are no easy answers or solutions. I have stated many times that liberty can only come from within. My goal is to reach the ones that may have it, but have not realized it yet. These words having meaning to me: With liberty comes responsibility. My responsible contribution is to help show the way. Does that not help in any way, shape or form in solving a problem?

No, because you have misidentified the problem.