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Thread: Donald Trump's 3 positions on abortion in 3 hours

  1. #1

    Donald Trump's 3 positions on abortion in 3 hours

    [B]Of course anybody that knows anything about trump,his real position is 100% prochoice until he ran in an anti Abortion party...../B]'Some form of punishment'

    The GOP presidential front-runner's mad scramble began a little after he told MSNBC's Chris Matthews that abortion, if outlawed, should carry "some form of punishment."

    When Matthews asked if that penalty should apply specifically to the woman, Trump replied: "Yes."







    But he didn't elaborate on its nature except to say that men should not be held responsible.

    READ: Trump struggles to clarify abortion remarks

    The backlash was fast, angry and bipartisan.

    Dawn Laguens from the Planned Parenthood Action Fund called Trump "flat-out dangerous," while Bernie Sanders ("Shameful") and Hillary Clinton ("Horrific and telling") tweeted their condemnations.

    On the GOP side, John Kasich and Ted Cruz, who both favor strict anti-abortion laws, criticized Trump from the right, with the Texas senator accusing him of having damaged the cause, saying the billionaire "demonstrated that he hasn't seriously thought through the issues."


    'This issue is unclear'

    Trump spokeswoman Hope Hicks sent in a statement from Trump to reporters: "This issue is unclear and should be put back into the states for determination. Like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions, which I have outlined numerous times."

    Criticism, though, continued to come.


    'The woman is a victim'

    By a little before 5 p.m., Trump released another explanation -- marking an almost complete about-face.

    "If Congress were to pass legislation making abortion illegal and the federal courts upheld this legislation, or any state were permitted to ban abortion under state and federal law, the doctor or any other person performing this illegal act upon a woman would be held legally responsible, not the woman," Trump said in a statement.

    "The woman is a victim in this case as is the life in her womb," Trump said. "My position has not changed -- like Ronald Reagan, I am pro-life with exceptions."

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/30/politi...ons/index.html
    Last edited by klamath; 03-30-2016 at 07:55 PM.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.



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  3. #2
    Why is the woman a victim?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by squirl22 View Post
    Why is the woman a victim?
    Because in the society we live in, that is the politically correct thing to say. Adult women who go to doctors seeking an abortion are victims and the predatory doctors offering said service are the criminals. Shame on you if you happen to see it any other way.

    This shows that Trump can be politically correct when his supporters and society in general pushes back. There goes the only thing which he was actually consistent on

  5. #4

  6. #5
    “I don’t think that there will be any curtailing of Donald Trump as president,” he said. "He controls the media, he controls the sentiment [and] he controls everybody. He’s the one who will resort to executive orders more so than [President] Obama ever used them." - Ron Paul

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by squirl22 View Post
    Why is the woman a victim?
    She's not, Trump is wrong.
    "The Patriarch"

  8. #7
    If you're going to make the case that abortion is murder, I think you have to hold the woman responsible as well. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. She is the one seeking the abortion, after all. I don't think those high and mighty moralists have the stomach for that, and that's why Trump had to back down.

    If you don't like abortions, don't have one. That's the only way to stop them. Government should not be part of that equation....and if you try to bring government in on the equation, women will just find a way around that. We always have.

  9. #8
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-25-2018 at 10:09 AM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Voluntarist View Post
    In which of his three stances ... [so far]
    The fact that he cares so little about the issue that he didn't bother to read up on whatever the latest talking points of the pro-life movement are is a plus in my book. I would have assumed Trump's answer is the "correct" pro-life one too. How can these people maintain the position that women should be forced to give birth to a rape baby while at the same time acting as if the suggestion that a woman face so much as a fine for aborting a regular baby she had with her husband is beyond the pale? If you really care about moderating your position to make it acceptable to the mainstream, you should probably start with the rape baby stuff.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    If you're going to make the case that abortion is murder, I think you have to hold the woman responsible as well. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. She is the one seeking the abortion, after all. I don't think those high and mighty moralists have the stomach for that, and that's why Trump had to back down.
    Okay. So count abortion as medical malpractice. Problem solved. It's malpractice to inject a person in the but with silicone to make it bigger. It should be malpractice to inject saline into an unborn baby to kill it.

    If you don't like abortions, don't have one. That's the only way to stop them. Government should not be part of that equation....and if you try to bring government in on the equation, women will just find a way around that. We always have.
    So....if you don't believe in murder don't commit one. If you don't believe in rape don't do it. That's the logical conclusion of that thinking. If you agree with it cool. If not it's not consistent.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  13. #11
    Ben Carson says Trump mangled abortion Q because "I don't believe that he was warned that that question was coming."
    Sounds like Trump will be laughably terrible in the R/D debates!

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. So count abortion as medical malpractice. Problem solved. It's malpractice to inject a person in the but with silicone to make it bigger. It should be malpractice to inject saline into an unborn baby to kill it.



    So....if you don't believe in murder don't commit one. If you don't believe in rape don't do it. That's the logical conclusion of that thinking. If you agree with it cool. If not it's not consistent.
    So you are advocating for more govt regulations in our personal lives?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    Government should not be part of that equation....
    and if you try to bring government in on the equation,
    women will just find a way around that.
    We always have.
    If we are to have civil society and government is to adjudicate justice, and declare what is and is not murder... then you cannot dissociate government from the abortion issue.

    At some point you have to declare and defend the sanctity of life.

    Is it 12 months after birth that a baby is "alive"?
    Is it a month after birth?
    At birth?
    A week before birth?
    A month before birth?
    3 months before? 6?
    At conception?

    Is it a matter of weight? Over 7 lbs? Over 2 lbs? Over 2 ounces? Over an ounce?


    Even if women "get around" what is deemed "murder" they're still acting criminally and should be brought to justice; this isn't a "victimless crime".

    I'm personally of the opinion that babies shouldn't be aborted after 12 weeks or 1 ounce unless they are an imminent threat to the life of the mother.

    That's 3 missed periods. Plenty of time to make a decision about rape or drunken one night stands that should have never happened.
    Last edited by presence; 03-30-2016 at 09:55 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  16. #14
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-25-2018 at 10:09 AM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  17. #15
    And to think that I was worried POTUS Trump would be too ridged on issues that matter to me.

    His verbal agility and flexibility is what gives the great unwashed confidence he will say things
    that will make them happy.

    It's going to be great!
    Last edited by FindLiberty; 03-31-2016 at 11:29 AM.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    If we are to have civil society and government is to adjudicate justice, and declare what is and is not murder... then you cannot dissociate government from the abortion issue.

    At some point you have to declare and defend the sanctity of life.

    Is it 12 months after birth that a baby is "alive"?
    Is it a month after birth?
    At birth?
    A week before birth?
    A month before birth?
    3 months before? 6?
    At conception?

    Is it a matter of weight? Over 7 lbs? Over 2 lbs? Over 2 ounces? Over an ounce?


    Even if women "get around" what is deemed "murder" they're still acting criminally and should be brought to justice; this isn't a "victimless crime".

    I'm personally of the opinion that babies shouldn't be aborted after 12 weeks or 1 ounce unless they are an imminent threat to the life of the mother.

    That's 3 missed periods. Plenty of time to make a decision about rape or drunken one night stands that should have never happened.
    My personal opinion? Life begins at conception. So who gets to decide? Me? Or you? Either way, government doesn't need to be involved. Those who want an abortion will find a way to have one, no matter what laws we pass. They don't share your morality or mine. That was my point.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So....if you don't believe in murder don't commit one. If you don't believe in rape don't do it. That's the logical conclusion of that thinking. If you agree with it cool. If not it's not consistent.
    Apples and oranges, because I wouldn't classify abortion as a crime equal to murder or rape. I believe life begins at conception, but I also recognize that my belief is based on my morality and not shared by everyone in this country...furthermore, my belief that life begins at conception is not scientifically and/or medically and/or legally proven. Until it is, I cannot call it "murder".

  21. #18
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-25-2018 at 10:10 AM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    Those who want an abortion will find a way to have one, no matter what laws we pass. They don't share your morality or mine. That was my point.

    Those who want to murder their juvenile children will do so no matter what laws we pass.

    That doesn't mean there shouldn't be justice.

    My point is that no matter what there is a line in the sand.

    Roe v. Wade, 410 U.S. 113 (1973), is a landmark decision by the United States Supreme Court on the issue of abortion. It was decided simultaneously with a companion case, Doe v. Bolton. The Court ruled 7–2 that a right to privacy under the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment extended to a woman's decision to have an abortion, but that this right must be balanced against the state's two legitimate interests in regulating abortions: protecting women's health and protecting the potentiality of human life.[1] Arguing that these state interests became stronger over the course of a pregnancy, the Court resolved this balancing test by tying state regulation of abortion to the third trimester of pregnancy.
    Later, in Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey (1992), the Court rejected Roe's trimester framework while affirming its central holding that a woman has a right to abortion until fetal viability.[2] The Roe decision defined "viable" as "potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid."[3] Justices in Casey acknowledged that viability may occur at 23 or 24 weeks, or sometimes even earlier, in light of medical advances.[4]
    In disallowing many state and federal restrictions on abortion in the United States,[5][6] Roe v. Wade prompted a national debate that continues today about issues including whether, and to what extent, abortion should be legal, who should decide the legality of abortion, what methods the Supreme Court should use in constitutional adjudication, and what the role should be of religious and moral views in the political sphere. Roe v. Wade reshaped national politics, dividing much of the United States into pro-choice and pro-life camps, while activating grassroots movements on both sides.

    I'm not in the pro life or pro choice camp. I am in clause 2 of the Roe v Wade camp, specifically:

    A woman's right to privacy must be balanced against the potentiality of life.

    I agree with the viability test, the state has a role in regulating the abortion of a viable 'potential' human being that could live on life support outside of the womb.

    I would also take that decision one step further.

    I don't think you should be able to legally abort a fetus. I think the cut off should occur at "embryo fetus transition", which is under one ounce.


    I laid out my position here:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...E-10-GRAM-RULE

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  23. #20
    @presence

    To your comment that those who want to murder their juvenile children will do so, etc....yes, and they do. It's a disgusting world in which we live. But 99.9% of people agree that act is murder with no exceptions. Not true on the abortion issue. If you must get The State involved, regulation will be required.

    A viability test will be necessary. That will be necessary to get science, law, and the medical community on the same page. After that, any debate is moot...but until then, there is no consensus (even between you and me, because I believe life begins sooner than you do, and others believe later.) One this is all squared away, justice can be served, and we can start executing women.

  24. #21
    Tronald's logically correct in terms of who should be punished. If abortion is outlawed, that means there's going to be some sort of punishment for the woman carrying the baby. Otherwise, what's the point of the law? I'm pro-life but the legal penalty is something pro-lifers avoid talking about.
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  25. #22
    One this is all squared away, justice can be served, and we can start executing women.
    Which does bring us to what exactly is "justice". I tend to lean towards community service scaled to gestational age.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Which does bring us to what exactly is "justice". I tend to lean towards community service scaled to gestational age.
    If we're going to call it "murder", community service isn't an appropriate punishment. It doesn't come close to fitting the crime of murder.

  27. #24
    If the idea is really to save lives eliminate the doctors right to perform it. 95% of abortions would be eliminated. There will always be illegal abortions like there will always be murder. Imposing draconian laws to "try" and get that last few percent is in the same category as gun laws and imposing a surveillance state to stop murder.
    War; everything in the world wrong, evil and immoral combined into one and multiplied by millions.



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    If we're going to call it "murder", community service isn't an appropriate punishment. It doesn't come close to fitting the crime of murder.
    I think we lack appropriate terminology; I would aptly call it "fetucide" from the root infanticide.

    I think voluntary manslaughter is a better distinction than "murder".

    The most common type of voluntary manslaughter occurs when a defendant is provoked to commit the homicide. It is sometimes described as a heat-of-passion killing. In most cases, the provocation must induce rage or anger in the defendant, although some cases have held that fright, terror, or desperation will suffice.
    abortion passes the "desperation" test in my eye.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansla...y_manslaughter
    Last edited by presence; 03-31-2016 at 08:04 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    If you're going to make the case that abortion is murder, I think you have to hold the woman responsible as well. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. She is the one seeking the abortion, after all. I don't think those high and mighty moralists have the stomach for that, and that's why Trump had to back down.

    If you don't like abortions, don't have one. That's the only way to stop them. Government should not be part of that equation....and if you try to bring government in on the equation, women will just find a way around that. We always have.
    I disagree on the government side here...government is supposed to PROTECT rights, and the right to life is definitely in our founding documents.

    If you argue that they should not protect the right to life, then it follows they shouldnt protect any rights, which means if they arent supposed to protect them then they're allowed to destroy them or let them be destroyed. Heck no.

  31. #27
    xxxxx
    Last edited by Voluntarist; 07-25-2018 at 10:10 AM.
    You have the right to remain silent. Anything you post to the internet can and will be used to humiliate you.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I think we lack appropriate terminology; I would aptly call it "fetucide" from the root infanticide.

    I think voluntary manslaughter is a better distinction than "murder".



    abortion passes the "desperation" test in my eye.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansla...y_manslaughter
    Premeditation is why it is murder. They didnt ACCIDENTALLY end up in the room at the abortion clinic with papers signed allowing the killing....they premeditated that.

    Legally, that is first degree murder as that definition is:

    First Degree Murder - intent to kill + premeditation and deliberation

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    I think we lack appropriate terminology; I would aptly call it "fetucide" from the root infanticide.

    I think voluntary manslaughter is a better distinction than "murder".



    abortion passes the "desperation" test in my eye.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansla...y_manslaughter
    OK. But community service still does not fit the crime of voluntary manslaughter. That's not enough, if you're going to call it that.

    What Are the Legal Penalties for Voluntary Manslaughter?
    Voluntary manslaughter is generally classified under most state laws as a first-degree felony. This is a very serious charge resulting in:


    • Stiff criminal fines
    • Prison sentences of up to ten years
    • Other consequences such as mandatory counseling or anger management courses

    - See more at: http://www.legalmatch.com/law-librar....dT1eHfW9.dpuf

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by cajuncocoa View Post
    My personal opinion? Life begins at conception. So who gets to decide? Me? Or you?


    I would be open to a system of uniform scaled justice from conception; say for example... weekends of community service per week of

    gestation^2

    so if you abort in week one you owe 1^2 or one weekend of community service.
    if you abort in the 3d week you owe 3^2 or 9 weekend of community service
    in the 10th week 10^2 = 100 weekends of community service (2 years)
    in the 20th week 20^2 = 400 weekends of community service (7 years)
    in the 30th week 30^2 = 900 weekends (17 years)
    in the 40th week 40^2 = 1600 weekends (31 years)

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


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