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Thread: The rise and fall of the libertarians?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And you have actively driven off anyone you consider a leftist, back in the day and to this very day.
    That's not true. I never drove you off.

    Yet they are active, they vote, they are concerned about civil liberties, and they have demonstrated a willingness to be open and work with us.

    Either this site is a place where the disaffected can be brought together and rallied in the cause of liberty, or this is Trump Echo Chamber #284. It is unlikely to be both. You whine about globalism, but being fooled into giving up our liberties for security and putting American Imperialism before Global Imperialism is to go down the exact same road, but with blinders on. Eventually, it will lead us to the same place.

    Trump is not Monroe, and his 'better deals' are not alliances that will not entangle us. Even if he is what you say he is, the place he will leave us after eight years (assuming he can win at all, which is also highly doubtful) is just the place the globalists want us--about three baby steps away from the New World Order. And that's your best case scenario.

    I'll take my chances with the leftists, provided they're principled. Thanks anyway. Any leftist who supports the Libertarian Party is not promoting globalism, because what they are supporting is more localized control, which obviously moves a nation farther from the New World Order, not closer.
    Of course you will.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    That's not true. I never drove you off.
    But we do keep trying, don't we.

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Of course you will.
    Of course I will. I have no irrational fear of the term 'left'. Anyone who is willing to work for local control, and therefore willing to work for a situation where a globalist has to work at integrating fifty states and seven territories, instead of just corrupting Washington to achieve their goal, is an ally that can actually impede globalism.

    Someone focused on condensing power in Washington, conquering the Middle East and cutting deals is not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    But we do keep trying, don't we.
    Apparently not, or you would have been gone long ago. But, I (mod edit) anyone who doesn't hate Trump and is not willing to run around here lying about his positions.

    Of course I will. I have no irrational fear of the term 'left'. Anyone who is willing to work for local control, and therefore willing to work for a situation where a globalist has to work at integrating fifty states and seven territories, instead of just corrupting Washington to achieve their goal, is an ally that can actually impede globalism.
    Maybe you are the person who can pull the left together to get rid of Agenda 21, locally, and the like. We certainly need people to do that.

    ...instead of just corrupting Washington to achieve their goal, is an ally that can actually impede globalism. Someone focused on condensing power in Washington, conquering the Middle East and cutting deals is not.
    Trump is anti-globalist. You need to watch that video.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    He is in several regards, in my opinion. Have you listened to his foreign policy speech?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XW8RqLN3Qao
    Trump has contradicted himself at every juncture. You cannot take anything he says at face value. This is a man who supported the War in Iraq, and indeed called for an invasion of Iraq, in the media, before it happened. Link. He has called for "boots on the ground" (what he means is US soldiers: humans, not boots) to fight ISIS. Link. He has called for troops to remain in Afghanistan. Link. He has called for strengthening our military, already the largest on the planet. He has called for bombing oil fields in Iraq. He has called for stopping Iran's nuclear program "by any means necessary", and has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea. Link.

    How are any of these positions liberty positions? They are pro-war, ultra-war-hawk positions which would/will involve the US in even more overseas military quagmires.


    Which LP candidate would that be? Gary Johnson stinks. He made an ass of himself on his foreign policy last time he ran. Isn't he also pro-abortion? It's not my number one issue, considering the state of our country right now, but if you are holding him out as a liberty candidate, you need to go back to the drawing board.
    Johnson called for a 43% reduction in military spending. This is exactly what needs to happen. We need to bring our troops home from overseas entanglements. Any of the LP candidates have a better foreign policy than Donald Trump, who of course has two positions on any issue.

  7. #35
    Either this is a place where we cower in fear of 'leftists', and promote the GOP, and pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that Trump might do something for us if we get on our knees and beg him to, or this place is a force for liberty.

    Given the fact that we would have to ignore about 75% of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth to pull the former off...

    And just because no one has run me off...

    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Maybe you should start your own forum.
    ..is no indication that no one has tried. But it's the sort of rhetoric one expects from someone who wants us to ignore 75% of what their candidate has said over time.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 05-15-2016 at 02:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  8. #36
    ,...and as soon as we get the Socialists on board, somebody should give La Raza a call.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Either this is a place where we cower in fear of 'leftists', and promote the GOP, and pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that Trump might do something for us if we get on our knees and beg him to, or this place is a force for liberty.

    Given the fact that we would have to ignore about 75% of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth to pull the former off...

    And just because no one has run me off...



    ..is no indication that no one has tried. But it's the sort of rhetoric one expects from someone who wants us to ignore 75% of what their candidate has said over time.
    False dichotomy, neither option is acceptable. How about pure revulsion at their perpetual dishonesty and mega statism?

    "By their body counts ye shall know them."

  10. #38
    I was a libertarian before Ron Paul came along. I liked and respected Ron, but I was never hugely excited about what he was doing. 70%-80% of the people supporting Ron were not libertarian in any meaningful way. And the people Ron did encourage to become libertarian didn't necessarily learn the right lessons.

    Rand was the best libertarian shot probably ever but his chances were were still low single digits. The excitement for libertarianism was always overstated.

    There is value in keeping ideas alive and conversing with like minded people. It doesn't take that many people to shift policy. You could have looked back at many points in the 20th Century and be very pessimistic. But a small number of free market intellectuals changed world history for the better.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Either this is a place where we cower in fear of 'leftists', and promote the GOP, and pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that Trump might do something for us if we get on our knees and beg him to,
    No one has asked anyone to get on your knees and beg Trump to do anything at all, or to even like him. You make those statements about the GOP, yet, you have said your goal is to replace the GOP with the LP. Does that mean that you want everyone to pat each other on the back and try to reassure each other that whomever the LP nominates will be the way, the truth and the light?

    Seriously, this is whacko bird stuff, Tulsa. Instead of getting so upset that a few Paul supporters are going to vote for Trump, why don't you do your own thing. Promote the LP or whatever. I personally am not going to join with that, because I think it fruitless, but we don't all have to take the same path.

    or this place is a force for liberty.
    Yes, it's a place for liberty and not just YOUR version of it. You seem to not have a problem with those promoting the illegal alien overrun of our borders, cultural marxism and globalism as a whole, but damn, if you see someone who doesn't hate Trump, all hell breaks loose.

    Given the fact that we would have to ignore about 75% of the stuff that comes out of Trump's mouth to pull the former off...
    That's interesting, because at least 75% of the Trump griping around here is taking his words out of context. Something that was often done to Ron and we hated it. Yet, some of us are willing to turn around and do it to someone else.

    And just because no one has run me off...
    A bit disingenuous, don't you think. Since I said that to you in response for YOU telling Petar to get lost.

    ..is no indication that no one has tried. But it's the sort of rhetoric one expects from someone who wants us to ignore 75% of what their candidate has said over time.
    I don't think anyone gives a rat's damn what you think. People only care if lies are told. Because those who lie show that they are unable to argue against his actual positions. Instead preferring to make $#@! up, or take his statements completely out of context and post them repeatedly, including in juvenile pictures and cartoons. Even when the complete interview from which said statements were excerpted that proves his actual position is posted, it doesn't stop the libelous ones. No, can't have that.
    Last edited by LibertyEagle; 05-15-2016 at 04:55 PM.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    I don't think anyone gives a rat's damn what you think.
    This won't come as a shock to you, but I care what @acptulsa thinks. Because I know he's not taking Trump's words out of context as you claim he is (no, it's not at all the same thing that was done to Dr. Paul, unless you're also accusing Ron of doing the same thing, too.)



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by RJ Liberty View Post
    Trump has contradicted himself at every juncture. You cannot take anything he says at face value. This is a man who supported the War in Iraq, and indeed called for an invasion of Iraq, in the media, before it happened. Link. He has called for "boots on the ground" (what he means is US soldiers: humans, not boots) to fight ISIS. Link. He has called for troops to remain in Afghanistan. Link. He has called for strengthening our military, already the largest on the planet. He has called for bombing oil fields in Iraq. He has called for stopping Iran's nuclear program "by any means necessary", and has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea. Link.

    How are any of these positions liberty positions? They are pro-war, ultra-war-hawk positions which would/will involve the US in even more overseas military quagmires.




    Johnson called for a 43% reduction in military spending. This is exactly what needs to happen. We need to bring our troops home from overseas entanglements. Any of the LP candidates have a better foreign policy than Donald Trump, who of course has two positions on any issue.
    People project their wants on Trump and Bernie. There are leftist that see through Bernie: http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/...war-hypocrisy/

    Bernie supports Obama's kill list. I think Ron Paul had a smart message that united everyone. Corporations/banks have the system that protects themselves from capitalism with government help, the country is broke and money is wasted on wars which create more enemies for ourselves, and that we have lost our freedoms. He wanted to start by cutting spending by 1 trillion dollars. I think Victor Gold nails one of the main reasons Ron Paul was popular: https://youtu.be/HYQDwHPSF5A?t=4m47s

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I was a libertarian before Ron Paul came along. I liked and respected Ron, but I was never hugely excited about what he was doing. 70%-80% of the people supporting Ron were not libertarian in any meaningful way. And the people Ron did encourage to become libertarian didn't necessarily learn the right lessons.

    Rand was the best libertarian shot probably ever but his chances were were still low single digits. The excitement for libertarianism was always overstated.

    There is value in keeping ideas alive and conversing with like minded people. It doesn't take that many people to shift policy. You could have looked back at many points in the 20th Century and be very pessimistic. But a small number of free market intellectuals changed world history for the better.
    Me too.

    +Rep!

  16. #43
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    Please keep the discussion civil and on topic. This thread isn't about any candidate or their political views. Thanks.





    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Here we have someone fresh off of a temporary ban, and who came back with a vengeance, as you yourself admitted.


    Now, everyone knows that Hitler was no globalist, beyond his desire to take the globe from the globalists. Yet he started a war that didn't end in his lifetime, and destroyed his own nation with it. And every schoolchild knows it.

    There's no reason for a libertarian to rewrite history in this manner. But it certainly does qualify as a sales pitch for Trump, doesn't it?



    Let's imagine for a moment that LLS is considering rejoining us, and is lurking at this very moment. Is the admission that Trump is trying to steal the world's oil, combined with a contention that he's trying to do it as efficiently as possible, going to entice her to log in and join the conversation?



    Painting with a broad brush (is a Sanders supporter not capable of deciding that socialism is bad, but war is worse?), insulting potential supporters, and nakedly promoting Trump (and not using any provable facts to do it).



    Since when is it a given that the antiwar faction is afraid of 'third' parties, and what is there about Mr. Conquer the Middle East and Take Their Oil is going to attract the antiwar faction?

    Our best hope to form a winning coalition, and your best hope of restoring traffic to this place, lies in forming coalitions, and the antiwar group is about as big and active a group as any of us could ever hope to coalesce with. Would it not be wise to make this place attractive to them, now that their horse is about to be eliminated from the race?

    Trump people have about a hundred echo chambers they can hang out in. Those who are here, therefore, are pretty likely to have an agenda. And a coalition for liberty is not it.
    On its own, you are correct, that would not project what we want but consider the following... A Trump supporter wants to see what the Paul people are thinking and comes to the site, reads that message and is saying "That's what I'm thinking!". Then comes the liberty rebuttal to puts everything in place in a nice logical fashion. Confronted with the big picture the Trump supporter then gives pause and has to reflect on the merits of their position; they know they can't win a debate against someone who knows the issues.

    So the point is, there can be value in an intellectual discussion of the ideas. If that message was put forth on the site with no rebuttal in its own corner, elevated to the front page or otherwise glorified it would be a big problem, but that's not what's happening. So good discussion has merit.

    One problem can arise from this, if the same arguments get hashed out over and over. Our solution to this is with "Site Issue Evaluations", where we have one master thread to contain the debate and derive conclusions. Once conclusions have been made it is then against the guidelines to repeat talking points around the site that counter the conclusions. Doing so will eventually get you banned.

    For complete details on the "Site Issue Evaluations" protocol see:
    www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989


    I agree on the point of building coalitions, and in effect we are working to that end. As part of the next step we are working to raise the level of site discourse, all the personal bickering and fighting have to end. We can focus on issues without this, this is a barrier for a lot of people.

    As for what any one persons agenda is, that is something that no one will ever know across the board, instead all we can do it look at peoples actions and the fruit that they bring forth. Do the bring good things or not? The underlying goal of the Community Guidelines is to weed out people who bring forth bad fruit while allowing as much latitude as possible. Again, we're always open to ideas on how to better achieve our goals.
    This site has a specific purpose defined in our Mission Statement.

    Members must read and follow our Community Guidelines.

    I strive to respond to all queries; please excuse late and out-of-sequence responses.

  17. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Seems more than pretty obvious to me. Is "community" NOT a collectivist mindset with human group membership?

    Shall we tackle authoritarian Internet forums based on liberty, next?
    Thanks for clarifying. From my view there is a big different between viewing people as being part of some group vs. viewing people in a group in a negative manner. There is nothing negative about saying that people who signed up for this website are a part of the "site community", it's a label to convey a concept in a simpler manner and allows us to communicate better.


    However, if someone says "all people who signed up for the website are dumb." then they are making a sweeping generalization with some arbitrary negative attribute. Such sweeping and negative generalizations are problematic in multiple ways and have no intellectually foundation.
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  18. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post

    Either this site is a place where the disaffected can be brought together and rallied in the cause of liberty, or this is Trump Echo Chamber #284. It is unlikely to be both.
    The policy of this issue was resolved with the Trump Evaluation.
    This site has a specific purpose defined in our Mission Statement.

    Members must read and follow our Community Guidelines.

    I strive to respond to all queries; please excuse late and out-of-sequence responses.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    . The underlying goal of the Community Guidelines is to weed out people who bring forth bad fruit .
    Good idea. There's enough leftists contaminating this place without encouraging the Bernie Sanders Socialists to start hanging out here.

    You might as well change the name of the place to "The Trotsky Forums" if you do that.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Apparently not, or you would have been gone long ago. (Mod edit) anyone who doesn't hate Trump and is not willing to run around here lying about his positions.


    Maybe you are the person who can pull the left together to get rid of Agenda 21, locally, and the like. We certainly need people to do that.


    Trump is anti-globalist. You need to watch that video.
    My experience is that YOU are the (mod edit).

    There is absolutely no reasonable way to discuss Trump- Trump supporters will not allow "discussion"; we must all conform to his greatness or we are called SJWs, leftist, communists, Hillary lovers, etc.
    There is no spoon.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Good idea. There's enough leftists contaminating this place without encouraging the Bernie Sanders Socialists to start hanging out here.

    You might as well change the name of the place to "The Trotsky Forums" if you do that.
    Just proved my point- again.
    There is no spoon.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    Just proved my point- again.
    That's nice.

    Have a good day.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    That's nice.

    Have a good day.
    You're welcome.
    There is no spoon.

  25. #51
    When I was an activist libertarian in college, we most closely identified as Anti-authoritarian. If that is the claim, then certainly, we have lost everything.

  26. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I was a libertarian before Ron Paul came along. I liked and respected Ron, but I was never hugely excited about what he was doing. 70%-80% of the people supporting Ron were not libertarian in any meaningful way. And the people Ron did encourage to become libertarian didn't necessarily learn the right lessons.
    This has been seen as a major lost opportunity, we had peoples attention and did not capitalize on it. This is something that has to be structurally fixed. It's part of what need to be done and part of what I am calling the Liberty Blueprint:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...sion-a-new-era
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  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    This has been seen as a major lost opportunity, we had peoples attention and did not capitalize on it. This is something that has to be structurally fixed. It's part of what need to be done and part of what I am calling the Liberty Blueprint:
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...sion-a-new-era
    I'd say it's more our fault than RP's fault. Ron definitely did everything to make people understand what liberty actually means. I think a lot of people want to get some kind of 'victory' out of politics. I personally don't want any such victory, it's nice, for a day or so... I just want to be left alone, for the most part. I think that's where the major difference is between those who supported Ron for the 'wrong' and 'right' reasons. From our perspective that is, I don't think intentions are judge-able in this regard. I'll respect the fact people want some kind of authoritarianism as long as they don't put any effort into actually achieving it.

    But I definitely think a lot of people who supported Ron suddenly saw someone, who was not a 'career politician' (yeah I know he was in congress for 30 years but he was never 'one of them', which is my point.), who was honest, who said things people liked. People may have supported him because they finally felt like there was someone who said things they thought, even though it may have been a very small part of the message.

    It's something we can see on the forums here as well, a lot of people have different issues they are passionate about, there is nothing wrong about that but I guess on most issues we can find disagreement here. I don't think there's a real ideology around here, it's a mixture of different ideologies. The only thing we have going for ourselves, is that we respect each-other. For the most part that is. And I must add to that that I think a bit of adversity from time to time is good for a healthy relationship.

    So yeah, the blueprint, framework... It's what we need, even though not everyone might agree with everything. Even if we just set a basic framework for what our 'ideology' is around here, we'll be clearer about ourselves. Being clear and making sure people understand where you are coming from is a powerful tool, one we have not wielded too much around here.

    my 2cts.
    "I am a bird"

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by luctor-et-emergo View Post
    I'd say it's more our fault than RP's fault. Ron definitely did everything to make people understand what liberty actually means. I think a lot of people want to get some kind of 'victory' out of politics. I personally don't want any such victory, it's nice, for a day or so... I just want to be left alone, for the most part. I think that's where the major difference is between those who supported Ron for the 'wrong' and 'right' reasons. From our perspective that is, I don't think intentions are judge-able in this regard. I'll respect the fact people want some kind of authoritarianism as long as they don't put any effort into actually achieving it.

    But I definitely think a lot of people who supported Ron suddenly saw someone, who was not a 'career politician' (yeah I know he was in congress for 30 years but he was never 'one of them', which is my point.), who was honest, who said things people liked. People may have supported him because they finally felt like there was someone who said things they thought, even though it may have been a very small part of the message.

    It's something we can see on the forums here as well, a lot of people have different issues they are passionate about, there is nothing wrong about that but I guess on most issues we can find disagreement here. I don't think there's a real ideology around here, it's a mixture of different ideologies. The only thing we have going for ourselves, is that we respect each-other. For the most part that is. And I must add to that that I think a bit of adversity from time to time is good for a healthy relationship.

    So yeah, the blueprint, framework... It's what we need, even though not everyone might agree with everything. Even if we just set a basic framework for what our 'ideology' is around here, we'll be clearer about ourselves. Being clear and making sure people understand where you are coming from is a powerful tool, one we have not wielded too much around here.

    my 2cts.
    +Rep!

  29. #55
    I think we are "asleep" more then dead. Not as much motivation these days.
    The most important element of a free society, where individual rights are held in the highest esteem, is the rejection of the initiation of violence.

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  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by younglibertarian View Post
    I think we are "asleep" more then dead. Not as much motivation these days.
    Some are dead, some are asleep, some are not.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by brandon View Post
    Since the inception of the libertarian party in the 70's they struggled to gain ground or be noticed. They spent about 2 decades getting < 1% in national elections and never being included in the bigger conversations. It seemed Ron Paul was the libertarian break through that changed all of that. In 2008 he brought libertarianism to the main stream. He made the average politco second guess themselves. In 2012 He became a viable candidate for the nomination. The entire nation of political observers were talking about Ron Paul and Libertarianism.

    Then he lost, and it all went away. Rand Paul ran for president, but he certainly didn't continue and libertarian legacy.
    He did, actually.

    What happened is that we discovered that most Ron Paul supporters were not libertarians.

    They were just contrarians, vague "anti-establishment" people.

    These people abandoned libertarian Rand for socialist Trump/Sanders.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Petar View Post
    Trump will probably win and open the Pandora's Box for every manner of alternative candidate.

    The Libertarian party has already rode the Trump-Train and doubled their support to a whopping 2%.
    Um, people are not registering Libertarian to vote for Trump. That's not how that works. They are registering Libertarian because they see through The Trumptard and how dangerous he is. The LP is not "riding the Trump-Train" they are riding the wave of backlash against him.
    Amash>Trump

    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by The Rebel Poet View Post
    Um, people are not registering Libertarian to vote for Trump. That's not how that works. They are registering Libertarian because they see through The Trumptard and how dangerous he is. The LP is not "riding the Trump-Train" they are riding the wave of backlash against him.
    Same shizer.

    When Trump is finished doing his thing, the Losertarian party may even end up being viable.

    If the Losertarian party helps kill Trump in the cradle, their support level will continue to suck.
    Donald Trump > SJW ass-tears

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Petar View Post
    Same shizer.

    When Trump is finished doing his thing, the Losertarian party may even end up being viable.

    If the Losertarian party helps kill Trump in the cradle, their support level will continue to suck.
    There are times when even "here's your sign" is just not enough. The government will increase liberty under Trump, the Libertarian party can only grow by shrinking, war is peace, freedom is slavery, and ignorance is strength.
    Amash>Trump

    ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ЄCΤΙΝ ЄξΟΥCΙΑ ЄΙ ΜΗ ΥΠΟ ΘЄΟΥ

    "Patriotism should come from loving thy neighbor, not from worshiping graven images" - Ironman77

    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

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