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Thread: The Return of Sound Money

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    See, helmuth. Not to pick on our misnomer-ed friend r3volution 3.0, but it's a perfect example of what Rothbard talked about in Ethics concerning people more attracted to the idea of liberty than the goals:

    Now, again, maybe this isn't who Rev3 "really is", you know... "deep down" or whatever, but the sentiments he expresses are spot on for the comparison.
    Well, look, he's not my favorite either; I still have him on ignore. However, he has come and taken the time to give feedback on my project, and that helps me, even if it's negative. I think. I could be wrong. I suppose if the thread gets too overwhelmingly negative it could become toxic and be a net loss.

    So anyway, good on ya and thank you, r3volution 3.0.

    So I'm going to stick around on your thread. I've subscribed and what-not so I'll do my part to thwart the gatekeepers. You've actually done something, and you're aware I have as well, and neither of us are anonymous. So that's something to build on.

    I'm very much interested in sound money strategy, and we've both put a lot of effort into it, so perhaps if nothing else, we can learn something and cause others to learn something.
    Well thank you very much. Yes, I hope so.

    Still waiting to hear about April 19th.
    Lexington and Concord. Patriot's Day.

    And one was safe and asleep in his bed
    Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
    Who that day would be lying dead,
    Pierced by a British musket ball.

    I honor that man. I honor him. I honor them all. May we remember them forever.

    So through the night rode Paul Revere;
    And so through the night went his cry of alarm
    To every Middlesex village and farm,---
    A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
    A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
    And a word that shall echo for evermore!

    For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
    Through all our history, to the last,
    In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
    The people will waken and listen to hear
    The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
    And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

    Also, very curious that you are the first "sound money" project I've seen from a member here in the 10 years this site has existed. Thought I would be the first, but you beat me by 2 days. Kinda spooky.
    I guess it was time.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Helmuth, what about this:

    What if, in addition to auto-conversion to dollars, you passed this through bitcoin as well, or any other crypto for that matter.

    I buy gold, and in addition to my account being useable with the card, I also have a bitcoin wallet to spend my gold. If you tie the gold vault to the bitcoin wallet on the bank side as well, it gives a level of transparency and auditing that the blockchain provides, and also removes this stigma everyone's throwing at you that "it's really just dollars behind it all isn't it?"

    You could peg a crypto as a gold weight, heck, there might already be one. I haven't really ever looked.
    In other words have an additional pay-out mechanism: bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. I don't know how much demand there would be for that. Bitcoin enthusiasts can already pay people and merchants who accept bitcoin. Of which there are not all that many, by the way (relative to how many merchants accept Visa).

    That said, there is an attractiveness to being a hub, an elegant and simple-to-use nexus, connecting together gold, bitcoin, and the dollar. I think that a lot of people (especially libertarians) would like that. So there is something to your idea.

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    For what? I thought I'd posted here, but I can't find it.
    Sorry to confuse you, osan. No, you hadn't posted here yet. I am ask for and inviting your feedback regarding the new gold-backed payment card I have created. Check it out, if you have a moment:

    https://Midas.gold

    Thanks!

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    FRB is popular because people would rather earn interest than pay fees on their demand deposits.
    The fact that people are not getting virtually any interest on their deposits right now from the incumbent banks, along with the fact that many millions of people actually pay more in nuisance fees than they get in interest, makes the incumbents highly vulnerable to disruption at this point in time.

    Retail banks today make a majority of their revenues from... what? <Fanfare>: Fees! That's right, banks profit when their customers make a mistake! That is their #1 revenue stream. It will take decades of the "interest payments" you're talking about for all those .1 percents to finally offset a single $20 overdraft fee.

    That is the real situation.

    I intend to out-compete these buggers.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    The fact that people are not getting virtually any interest on their deposits right now from the incumbent banks, along with the fact that many millions of people actually pay more in nuisance fees than they get in interest, makes the incumbents highly vulnerable to disruption at this point in time.

    Retail banks today make a majority of their revenues from... what? <Fanfare>: Fees! That's right, banks profit when their customers make a mistake! That is their #1 revenue stream. It will take decades of the "interest payments" you're talking about for all those .1 percents to finally offset a single $20 overdraft fee.

    That is the real situation.

    I intend to out-compete these buggers.
    I left Bank of Amigo over those fees, $35.00 a shot if I remember right. It was a complete scam, they weren't anything but thieves holding your money. I went to a small community bank and haven't had one single problem for years now.

    It's not very accessible as it only has 5 branches and isn't open Saturdays but it's worth it not to have the greedy bastards leeching off my hard earned money.
    Last edited by Origanalist; 05-04-2017 at 08:23 AM.
    "The Patriarch"

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    So to set up an account, I send you dollars. Since I am in the US (like most here- your site says there is one for overseas customers) I will be charged a fee.
    No, not at all. There will be NO FEE.


    You issue me a debit card I can use against that money I sent you- which you use to buy gold (which doesn't really affect me
    It does affect you: you are the owner of the gold. You now own gold. That is different than owning dollars, just as owning real estate is different than owning junk bonds.

    Now, that may not be a huge difference, depending on how you look at it, but it is a difference. Gold and (present-day paper) dollars are two different classes of objects. They have dramatically divergent properties.

    Previously, one big difference was that dollars you could spend, in virtually all situations calling for spending, whereas gold you could not spend in virtually any situation. This made dollars a whole lot more useful.

    Midas changes that. It makes gold more useful.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Sure, I guess. But you like a lot of people are missing the point entirely. You take your FRN's, transfer them into gold backed currency, and then spend them at your leisure. I don't see what you're all freaked out about, I'm going to use it and if you don't want to don't. Personally I'm going to do everything in my power to deny the federal reserve any way I can no matter how trivial.
    Thanks a million for all your support, @Origanalist! And thanks for your patience; I know it's taken a long time.

    Thanks also @wizardwatson for holding down the fort and for the very generous words of support. I've got to get back over to your site and do some more testing for you one of these days soon, here. Check out his Metric Reserve system, people!

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Metric-Reserve

    www.metricreserve.com

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Helmuth is the only one using the gold.
    Totally false lie.



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Thanks a million for all your support, @Origanalist! And thanks for your patience; I know it's taken a long time.

    Thanks also @wizardwatson for holding down the fort and for the very generous words of support. I've got to get back over to your site and do some more testing for you one of these days soon, here. Check out his Metric Reserve system, people!

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Metric-Reserve

    www.metricreserve.com
    Thanks,

    Yeah, I'm in the middle of an interface overhaul. In fact pondering just today whether to just go ahead and blockchain the concept myself. Meaning, take the metric reserve model and implement it on a blockchain, and just have www.metricreserve.com be an interface too it, much like coinbase is.

    I'm sure I'll finish the interface overhaul in any case. Just a lot of work if I go the blockchain route.

    But this ongoing convo about FRB has made me realize just how pro-blockchain I am. People are so in love with FRB, money in this world really needs the blockchain. Shell game needs to end where money is concerned.

    Thanks for the plug.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 05-04-2017 at 08:39 AM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by H. E. Panqui View Post
    ...as to your debit card idea...question...i give you 1000 frn's when gold is at exactly [comex] 1000 frn's/oz...6 mos. later (and no account activity) gold is at exactly 1500/oz..how many frn's are available to me?....and how many frn's are available to me if the price drops to exactly 500/oz?...
    Great question, Hank!

    When gold is at 1500/oz, $1500 FRNs will be available to you.

    When gold is at 500/oz, $500 FRNs will be available to you.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Great question, Hank!

    When gold is at 1500/oz, $1500 FRNs will be available to you.

    When gold is at 500/oz, $500 FRNs will be available to you.
    "The Patriarch"

  14. #132
    Regarding the Fractional Reserve Banking issue:

    I will briefly weigh in. Midas is 100% reserve. RIAs are, in fact, legally required to be 100% reserve with respect to their clients' funds. We will never be fractional reserve. I am strongly committed on the side of full-reserve.

    I, like Rothbard, am opposed to FRB on economic grounds. Also, I did not read the entire conversation but I will admit that r3v is correct when he says that two parties should in general be able to contract with each other however they want. Contract is sacred. In a free society, we must respect contract.

    That said, there is some problematicness in being inherently bankrupt, and also in incurring obligations which are mathematically impossible to keep in realistic scenarios with non-trivial probability of occurring (scenarios which, in fact, can be expected to occur eventually and have occurred repeatedly throughout history).

    Anyway, these are interesting technical issues. Even with time deposits, by the way, solvency would require the cumulative average loan duration to match or to be less than the cumulative average deposit duration. These are just good, sound, safe accounting practices. 100% reserve is good and sound and safe. Might other less sound arrangements be acceptable to some people? Perhaps.

    Just not to us at Midas.
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 05-04-2017 at 12:35 PM.

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    The fact that people are not getting virtually any interest on their deposits right now from the incumbent banks, along with the fact that many millions of people actually pay more in nuisance fees than they get in interest, makes the incumbents highly vulnerable to disruption at this point in time.

    ...

    I intend to out-compete these buggers.
    There may be an opening there; they've gotten complacent in their cartel and charge higher fees/pay less interest than they could.

    This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gold, mind you (a payment system that uses dollars exclusively might compete on this front).

    Anyway, I have a specific question about how your platform works:

    You're doing at least one round-trip exchange from dollars to gold to dollars per transaction, right?

    And you're storing physical gold in Switzerland?

    If you don't charge any fees, how are you covering those costs?

    If you already explained this, my apologies.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    There may be an opening there; they've gotten complacent in their cartel and charge higher fees/pay less interest than they could.

    This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gold, mind you (a payment system that uses dollars exclusively might compete on this front).
    True.

    Anyway, I have a specific question about how your platform works:

    You're doing at least one round-trip exchange from dollars to gold to dollars per transaction, right?

    And you're storing physical gold in Switzerland?

    If you don't charge any fees, how are you covering those costs?

    If you already explained this, my apologies.
    We'll make it up on volume!

    No, it's good to be suspicious of companies with no visible revenue source. First off, the storage fees and conversion fees we're dealing with are surprisingly low. At least part of the long-term revenue plan involves sharing a portion of the merchant charges (which, as you may know, is a significant percentage). Profitability will not be immediate (especially with significant sunk costs), but with enough active customers it should be able to turn a profit.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    We'll make it up on volume!
    LOL

    No, it's good to be suspicious of companies with no visible revenue source. First off, the storage fees and conversion fees we're dealing with are surprisingly low. At least part of the long-term revenue plan involves sharing a portion of the merchant charges (which, as you may know, is a significant percentage). Profitability will not be immediate (especially with significant sunk costs), but with enough active customers it should be able to turn a profit.
    Gotcha

    Do you anticipate getting merchants to pay from the outset (I would assume you'd need a fairly large user base to entice them)?

    And how do the merchant fees compare to other payment systems?

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Do you anticipate getting merchants to pay from the outset (I would assume you'd need a fairly large user base to entice them)?
    I don't want to share too much confidential information, but I do not anticipate being profitable before at least 1,000 customers.



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  20. #137
    Send me information on how to sign up as a beta tester.

    But, what are the tax implications? IF gold goes up and we convert to USD to spend are we not on the hook for capital gains?

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    I don't want to share too much confidential information, but I do not anticipate being profitable before at least 1,000 customers.
    Fair enough

    I remain skeptical of the political value of this sort of thing, but it does sound plausible as a payment system.

    And I do applaud your ambition

    Best of luck

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    No, not at all. There will be NO FEE.


    It does affect you: you are the owner of the gold. You now own gold. That is different than owning dollars, just as owning real estate is different than owning junk bonds.

    Now, that may not be a huge difference, depending on how you look at it, but it is a difference. Gold and (present-day paper) dollars are two different classes of objects. They have dramatically divergent properties.

    Previously, one big difference was that dollars you could spend, in virtually all situations calling for spending, whereas gold you could not spend in virtually any situation. This made dollars a whole lot more useful.

    Midas changes that. It makes gold more useful.
    Thank you for the correction. Since you are in Switzerland I assumed that Americans would be considered foreign customers.

    Foreign Transaction Fee: 2% of each foreign purchase transaction or foreign ATM advance transaction in U.S. Dollars; 3% of each foreign purchase transaction or foreign ATM advance transaction in Foreign Currency

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Sorry to confuse you, osan. No, you hadn't posted here yet. I am ask for and inviting your feedback regarding the new gold-backed payment card I have created. Check it out, if you have a moment:

    https://Midas.gold

    Thanks!
    Well, it is a damned sight better than anything we have at this time. It seems you are effectively issuing gold-backed electronic money. My question, and I have not yet read the site because I just got in from doing farm stuff and I'm whipped, is whether it would be convertible. I see both virtues and hazards in convertibility. I can easily see hordes of people panicking and depleting the gold reserve in about 10 minutes when some talking-douche on the TV announces that the economy is crashing hard and that we are all about to die. We all know how that sort of thing goes.

    Were this to take off, and I wish you all success, I see several possibilities. Firstly, you become a billionaire, which would please me to no end. There would be an effectively stable currency, all else equal - which leads me to some concerns. Were this to succeed, one of two things would likely happen: either every bank on the planet would jump on the bandwagon, or your body would be found floating down some obscure river in Outer Mongolia. If stable and effectively real money (or currency) is precisely what Theye do not want, I would fear for your very life because you are poking a large and dangerous creature whose attention most men do not want. Of course, all this assumes that money such as this is an actual economic factor in the grander scheme of global economic politics, which it may not be. I suspect that one of the reasons we have not had a global currency meltdown is because of all the electronics. There are vast swaths of currency stores that can simply disappear and reappear with a few keystrokes. That changes the power game fundamentally when compared with paper that must be run through a press and which, once released into the market, becomes very difficult for Themme to control.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  24. #141
    Well, I managed to make three different transactions at three different locations with $25.00 in gold backed currency today. I'll be sending a check after I order some Helmuth.
    "The Patriarch"

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    No. That is a serious accusation.
    My apologies. I really did not mean that in an untoward way. I just meant that instead of me holding my gold, now you would be holding my gold. No offense intended.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    True.


    We'll make it up on volume!

    No, it's good to be suspicious of companies with no visible revenue source. First off, the storage fees and conversion fees we're dealing with are surprisingly low. At least part of the long-term revenue plan involves sharing a portion of the merchant charges (which, as you may know, is a significant percentage). Profitability will not be immediate (especially with significant sunk costs), but with enough active customers it should be able to turn a profit.
    I'm not concerned about the coverage of expenses issue (you'll figure that out as you proceed), but more about the protection from the jackboots issue. In a decade that has seen the raiding of lots of online, gold-based financial services or alternatives to government fiat tyranny, will your variation fare any better? E.g., just because the gold is in Zurich, the site and business may still subject the enterprise to government intervention (shutdown attempts) if either of the latter are US based.

    You don't think they'll go after you? Tell it to the Liberty Dollar, e-Gold, e-Bullion, Liberty Reserve, etc. If you are a non-fiat alternative that could thus effect the current regime in some way, watch out. Bitcoin et al cryptocurrency has been successful for a reason---as an open-source software and peer network based transaction vehicle, there is no office to raid, no centrally located assets that can be seized, no party to subpoena to suspend operations, and no website to shut down. To duplicate that kind of invulnerability to disruption while still remaining physically based, you will have to take more steps than I see on the current site.

    I suggest to you four countries: Morocco, Cambodia, Nepal, and Mongolia. These are about the only four nations left that a) have no laws or enforce no laws about such financial alternatives, and b) have no standing extradition arrangement with the US. I suggest you store the gold in one of these four countries, set up the physical HQ in another, register the domain in another, and host the site on a server in the fourth.

    Between the lack of US jurisdiction and the spreading of risk across countries not cooperating with the US, your alternative then should be safe enough to stably operate. Apart from such extreme safeguards, I have concerns about its survival.
    Last edited by Peace&Freedom; 06-01-2017 at 04:16 PM.
    -----Peace & Freedom, John Clifton-----
    Blog: https://electclifton.wordpress.com/2...back-backlash/

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Well, I managed to make three different transactions at three different locations with $25.00 in gold backed currency today. I'll be sending a check after I order some Helmuth.
    That's great, Origanalist!



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Send me information on how to sign up as a beta tester.

    But, what are the tax implications? IF gold goes up and we convert to USD to spend are we not on the hook for capital gains?
    Can do! PM on the way.

    Regarding taxes: precious metals are classified by the IRS as collectibles, and so a higher capital gains rate may apply. The maximum capital gains rate charged on collectables is 28 percent. This does not necessarily mean that you will have to pay 28 percent, however. The actual rate that someone pays is determined by the amount of time the precious metals were held and the payer’s ordinary income tax rate. The investor must also determine if the capital gain is short-term or long-term based on how long they held the precious metals. Short-term capital gains are taxed differently from long-term capital gains.

    I am, unfortunately, (or maybe fortunately! ) not a tax expert, but basically this is my understanding:

    1. 28% is the maximum, not the minimum.
    2. If your regular tax rate is lower than 28%, you use your regular tax rate (just add the gains on as a little extra income).
    3. If your overall amount of capital gains is below a certain amount, I think it's $10, nobody reports it and the IRS doesn't worry about it.

    From the IRS directly:

    "If you figure your tax using the maximum capital gain rate and the regular tax computation results in a lower tax, the regular tax computation applies.
    Example.

    "All of your net capital gain is from selling collectibles, so the capital gain rate would be 28%. If you are otherwise subject to a rate lower than 28%, the 28% rate does not apply."

    -- http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html#d0e56153

  30. #146
    I have a question Helmuth, for everyone's benefit really.

    In the thread which split off this one concerning whether FRB was fraudulent (I say it is and was declared thread winner by the way) the main question of what distinguishes a fractional reserve bank from a 100% reserve bank is WHETHER THE DEPOSITOR IS THE LEGAL OWNER OF THE DEPOSIT.

    Can you assure your customers that they are in fact the legal owners of the gold being stored on their behalf and that their deposit is not a "loan" to your institution?

    Because if the deposit is a "loan" then technically it is your companies asset. If it is a bailment, then you are simply storing the owners asset for some fee.

    Very important question.

    EDIT: Also, sign me up for beta testing. You signed up for mine, I feel like I'm not reciprocating fully.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 05-05-2017 at 10:18 AM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Can do! PM on the way.

    Regarding taxes: precious metals are classified by the IRS as collectibles, and so a higher capital gains rate may apply. The maximum capital gains rate charged on collectables is 28 percent. This does not necessarily mean that you will have to pay 28 percent, however. The actual rate that someone pays is determined by the amount of time the precious metals were held and the payer’s ordinary income tax rate. The investor must also determine if the capital gain is short-term or long-term based on how long they held the precious metals. Short-term capital gains are taxed differently from long-term capital gains.

    I am, unfortunately, (or maybe fortunately! ) not a tax expert, but basically this is my understanding:

    1. 28% is the maximum, not the minimum.
    2. If your regular tax rate is lower than 28%, you use your regular tax rate (just add the gains on as a little extra income).
    3. If your overall amount of capital gains is below a certain amount, I think it's $10, nobody reports it and the IRS doesn't worry about it.

    From the IRS directly:

    "If you figure your tax using the maximum capital gain rate and the regular tax computation results in a lower tax, the regular tax computation applies.
    Example.

    "All of your net capital gain is from selling collectibles, so the capital gain rate would be 28%. If you are otherwise subject to a rate lower than 28%, the 28% rate does not apply."

    -- http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html#d0e56153
    So the answer is yes.
    With that in mind, will you have detailed reports available to users that show their conversion rates with buy-in/cash out dates and the differences in value so they can properly figure out their taxes owed. Or even plan on sending out a yearly statement if requested with all the info they need?

    I say this partly to protect your customers AND to protect yourself as not doing so could be interpreted as aiding tax evasion I would think.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    So the answer is yes.
    Yes. Sorry, I guess maybe I over-complicated the answer with too much information.

    With that in mind, will you have detailed reports available to users that show their conversion rates with buy-in/cash out dates and the differences in value so they can properly figure out their taxes owed. Or even plan on sending out a yearly statement if requested with all the info they need?

    I say this partly to protect your customers AND to protect yourself as not doing so could be interpreted as aiding tax evasion I would think.
    Absolutely. Thus far everyone has been well under the $10 limit, so no problem. But once things are really rolling, we will need to provide everyone with an annual report like you are talking about -- probably just a 1099, actually. So for 2016 we didn't, but for year-end 2017, that is the plan!
    Last edited by helmuth_hubener; 05-05-2017 at 11:07 AM.

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    I have a question Helmuth, for everyone's benefit really.

    Can you assure your customers that they are in fact the legal owners of the gold being stored on their behalf and that their deposit is not a "loan" to your institution?
    Yes, the customers are definitely the legal owners of the gold. Midas is just the custodian. As a good custodian, our job is simply to make sure the gold is sitting there, safely. We cannot use the gold for anything -- certainly cannot loan it out.

    EDIT: Also, sign me up for beta testing. You signed up for mine, I feel like I'm not reciprocating fully.
    Can do!

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesiv1 View Post
    My apologies. I really did not mean that in an untoward way. I just meant that instead of me holding my gold, now you would be holding my gold. No offense intended.
    No problem!

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