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Thread: Do you support unlimited immigration into US

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    if a group decided too [sic] ban the immigration of some or all people on a whim it would be within their rights
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    Right, so, as I said, you have taken up this nationalist idea not as a means to achieving some end, but as an end in itself: a principle.

    And it conflicts with (or is an exception to) liberal principles.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Nobody has ever advocated immigrants voting without a naturalization process... which by the way actually is authorized in the constitution.
    Again, you engage in false choices. Either you are in favor of everyone who comes here having and equal vote, or you must support random gestapo shakedowns.
    Even if I didn't think voting was retarded I wouldn't support that.
    Problem is, voting IS stupid. It's clearly axiomatic that any system of governance that requires you to be a racist dickhole in order to have a chance of actually working is unworthy of a free people.
    In the first place they vote illegally, in the second if they stay here long enough they will be given citizenship, in the third their children will be given citizenship and in the fourth it isn't racist, I don't want too many white Europeans coming here either, it isn't racist to be conservative about extending club membership to outsiders.

    Your anarchy won't last and will be replaced by tyrannical governments created by the very foreigners you are so eager to welcome, our Republic is simply the best option in a world where government is necessary and unavoidable.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #123
    You guys aren't tired yet?

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    ...
    It is a matter of property rights as I keep telling you, property rights have a purpose, the purpose is to allow the owners to benefit from and protect the property.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    That is a ridiculous stretch of a generality, you might as well claim that the incarceration of violent felons violates a right to associate with them or that it is a violation of the same right to prevent me from inviting China to establish a military base on my property.
    You must have missed the part of the quote that said, "so long as it does not prevent others from equally doing the same."

    Violent felons, by definition, prevent others from living a life in the manner of their choosing.

    If you don't believe I have a right to have a Chinese military base on my property, then you don't believe in basic property rights or the right to keep and bear arms. It's my property, not yours.

    Now, if some individual who lives on that base does something to prevent someone else from living as they choose, then you have a moral right to interfere against that individual. But not until that happens.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It is a matter of property rights as I keep telling you, property rights have a purpose, the purpose is to allow the owners to benefit from and protect the property.
    But you don't believe that private owners should be allowed to do that. You believe that the government is the de facto owner of everyone's property and should get to dictate to them how it is to be used according to whatever they, rather than we ourselves, think is good for us.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Nobody has ever advocated immigrants voting without a naturalization process... which by the way actually is authorized in the constitution.
    Again, you engage in false choices. Either you are in favor of everyone who comes here having and equal vote, or you must support random gestapo shakedowns.
    Even if I didn't think voting was retarded I wouldn't support that.
    Problem is, voting IS stupid. It's clearly axiomatic that any system of governance that requires you to be a racist dickhole in order to have a chance of actually working is unworthy of a free people.
    New talking points have arrived from from HQ. Great. Now please describe the high capacity naturalization process. At what point does it become undistinguishable from conquest?

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    But you don't believe that private owners should be allowed to do that. You believe that the government is the de facto owner of everyone's property and should get to dictate to them how it is to be used according to whatever they, rather than we ourselves, think is good for us.
    LOL
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    You must have missed the part of the quote that said, "so long as it does not prevent others from equally doing the same."

    Violent felons, by definition, prevent others from living a life in the manner of their choosing.

    If you don't believe I have a right to have a Chinese military base on my property, then you don't believe in basic property rights or the right to keep and bear arms. It's my property, not yours.

    Now, if some individual who lives on that base does something to prevent someone else from living as they choose, then you have a moral right to interfere against that individual. But not until that happens.
    Group defense in necessary and group territory control is required for it.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    New talking points have arrived from from HQ. Great. Now please describe the high capacity naturalization process. At what point does it become undistinguishable from conquest?
    Who said anything about going forward with naturalizing them at all?
    Oh right, it was you.
    You know for a group of people convinced these folks are hellspawn bent on conquest, you sure are anxious to hand them the keys.

    As to your second point, as I already pointed out, it becomes indistinguishable from conquest the moment you decide you are a living document theory supporter who has to twist the clear meaning of words so that they mean something else.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    In the first place they vote illegally, in the second if they stay here long enough they will be given citizenship, in the third their children will be given citizenship and in the fourth it isn't racist, I don't want too many white Europeans coming here either, it isn't racist to be conservative about extending club membership to outsiders.
    More "the system is broken so in order to preserve it in its current broken form I am arguing we break it further".
    If they are voting illegally, fix that. Or admit your system is $#@!. You can't say it is broken and that it's the greatest system and not be an outright fool.

    Your anarchy won't last and will be replaced by tyrannical governments created by the very foreigners you are so eager to welcome, our Republic is simply the best option in a world where government is necessary and unavoidable.
    Sigh, more false choices. Either I support everything you support or I am incompatible with Republican government.
    In truth, yes, this is why I am am anarchist. Because "small government conservatives" are utterly incapable of poking their heads outside of their box.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    More "the system is broken so in order to preserve it in its current broken form I am arguing we break it further".
    If they are voting illegally, fix that. Or admit your system is $#@!. You can't say it is broken and that it's the greatest system and not be an outright fool.


    Sigh, more false choices. Either I support everything you support or I am incompatible with Republican government.
    In truth, yes, this is why I am am anarchist. Because "small government conservatives" are utterly incapable of poking their heads outside of their box.
    LOL
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Nobody has ever advocated immigrants voting without a naturalization process... which by the way actually is authorized in the constitution.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    New talking points have arrived from from HQ. Great. Now please describe the high capacity naturalization process. At what point does it become undistinguishable from conquest?
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    Who said anything about going forward with naturalizing them at all?
    Oh right, it was you.
    The first quote seems to contradict your last statement.

  16. #134


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  17. #135
    It is frankly irrelevant what Madison or Jefferson thought, if indeed you're quoting them correctly at all. Your kind loves to misquote people and take their quotes out of context to fit your warped agenda. As you did with Madison. For example, Madison clearly states that the purpose of Article 1, Section 9 is about the slave trade:

    But some of the States were not only anxious for a Constitutional provision against the introduction of slaves. They had scruples against admitting the term "slaves" into the Instrument. Hence the descriptive phrase, "migration or importation of persons;" the term migration allowing those who were scrupulous of acknowledging expressly a property in human beings, to view imported persons as a species of emigrants
    What matters is what is in the Constitution and says and why. History is clear on what Article 1, Section 9 applies to- the importation of slaves and the Slave Trade. Nothing else.

    The rest of your quotes are about naturalization- the process by which one becomes a citizen- not immigration.

    None of these therefore prove you point. The Constitution doesn't authorize the government to restrict immigration in any way. No matter how you wish otherwise. Therefore, you are guilty of the crimes all other Socialist progressives are guilty of- warping the text of the Constitution or ignoring it entirely to force upon it your own agenda beyond the limits of the powers given the state.

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    Yes or no .
    YES



    If yes , please describe what positives the people here would gain from this .

    A free market in labor.
    Minimization of labor costs.
    Maximization of labor utility.


    because:

    data required for rational economic planning
    are distributed among individual actors,
    and thus unavoidably exist outside
    the knowledge of a central authority

    "The Knowledge Problem" is a hallmark of austrian economic thought.

    I wholeheartedly endorse its prescription on wage, price, and contraband controls on all goods including labor.


    Since capital goods and labor are highly heterogeneous (i.e., they have different characteristics that pertain to physical productivity), economic calculation requires a common basis for comparison for all forms of capital and labour.

    Money, as a means of exchange, enables buyers to compare the costs of goods without having knowledge of their underlying factors; the consumer can simply focus on his personal cost-benefit decision. The price system is therefore said to promote economically efficient use of resources by agents who may not have explicit knowledge of all of the conditions of production or supply. This is called the signalling function of prices, as well as the rationing function which prevents over-use of any resource.
    Hayek's argumentation is not only regarding computational complexity for the central planners, however. He further argues that much of the information individuals have cannot be collected or used by others. First, individuals may have no or little incentive to share their information with central or even local planners. Second, the individual may not be aware that he has valuable information, and when he becomes aware, it is only useful for a limited time, too short for it to be communicated to the central or local planners. Third, the information is useless to other individuals if it is not in a form that allows for meaningful comparisons of value (i.e., money prices as a common basis for comparison). Therefore, Hayek argues, individuals must acquire data through prices in real markets.
    According to Kirzner (1973) and Lavoie (1985) entrepreneurs reap profits by supplying unfulfilled needs in all markets. Entrepreneurship therefore brings prices closer to marginal costs. The adjustment of prices in markets towards ‘equilibrium’ (where supply and demand equal) gives them greater utilitarian significance. The activities of entrepreneurs make prices more accurate in terms of how they represent the marginal utility of consumers. Prices act as guides to the planning of production. Those who plan production use prices to decide which lines of production should be expanded or curtailed.

    Entrepreneurs lack the profit motive to take risks under socialism, and so are far less likely to attempt to supply consumer demands.
    the use of money in trading all goods (capital/labor and consumer) in all markets (spot and financial) combined with profit driven entrepreneurship and Darwinian natural selection in financial markets all combine to make rational economic calculation and allocation the outcome of the capitalist process.

    Mises insisted that socialist calculation is impossible because socialism precludes the exchange of capital goods in terms of a generally accepted medium of exchange, or money. Investment in financial markets determines the capital structure of modern industry with some degree of efficiency. The egalitarian nature of socialism prohibits speculation in financial markets. Mises therefore concluded that socialism lacks any clear tendency towards improvement in the capital structure of industry.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...lation_problem
    Last edited by presence; 02-12-2018 at 12:33 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    YES






    A free market in labor.
    Minimization of labor costs.
    Maximization of labor utility.


    because:




    "The Knowledge Problem" is a hallmark of austrian economic thought.

    I wholeheartedly endorse its prescription on wage, price, and contraband controls on all goods including labor.

    It's one thing to support unlimited immigration in a free market, or even a relatively free market - that seems liberty oriented to me.

    But what doesn't seem liberty oriented to me is completely destroying any future hope of having liberty by providing a big government program and incentives for immigrants who would not choose to come here otherwise and who want big government at nearly double the rate of natives.

    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's one thing to support unlimited immigration in a free market, or even a relatively free market - that seems liberty oriented to me.

    But what doesn't seem liberty oriented to me is completely destroying any future hope of having liberty by providing a big government program and incentives for immigrants who would not choose to come here otherwise and who want big government at nearly double the rate of natives.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    YES






    A free market in labor.
    Minimization of labor costs.
    Maximization of labor utility.


    because:




    "The Knowledge Problem" is a hallmark of austrian economic thought.

    I wholeheartedly endorse its prescription on wage, price, and contraband controls on all goods including labor.










    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econom...lation_problem
    If you want to keep your free market you must limit how many outsiders with a different political philosophy you allow into your society.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    It costs us our future liberty - I know borders aren't the most liberty oriented thing, but if it means keeping all of the rest of our liberty then it might be worth sacrificing until we have something closer to a free market. Then let them in, and if they want to work and they like our country and our culture they are welcome afaiac. But if we are treating them like prostitutes, paying them to come here and they vote in communists into our government, that doesn't seem like the best strategy to maximize our liberty.

    Did you look carefully at that chart I posted?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    It is frankly irrelevant what Madison or Jefferson thought, if indeed you're quoting them correctly at all. Your kind loves to misquote people and take their quotes out of context to fit your warped agenda. As you did with Madison. For example, Madison clearly states that the purpose of Article 1, Section 9 is about the slave trade:



    What matters is what is in the Constitution and says and why. History is clear on what Article 1, Section 9 applies to- the importation of slaves and the Slave Trade. Nothing else.

    The rest of your quotes are about naturalization- the process by which one becomes a citizen- not immigration.

    None of these therefore prove you point. The Constitution doesn't authorize the government to restrict immigration in any way. No matter how you wish otherwise. Therefore, you are guilty of the crimes all other Socialist progressives are guilty of- warping the text of the Constitution or ignoring it entirely to force upon it your own agenda beyond the limits of the powers given the state.
    "Every society has a right to fix the fundamental principles of its association, and to say to all individuals, that if they contemplate pursuits beyond the limits of these principles and involving dangers which the society chooses to avoid, they must go somewhere else for their exercise; that we want no citizens, and still less ephemeral and pseudo-citizens, on such terms. We may exclude them from our territory, as we do persons infected with disease." --Thomas Jefferson to William H. Crawford, 1816. ME 15:28

    But some of the States were not only anxious for a Constitutional provision against the introduction of slaves. They had scruples against admitting the term "slaves" into the Instrument. Hence the descriptive phrase, "migration or importation of persons;" the term migration allowing those who were scrupulous of acknowledging expressly a property in human beings, to view imported persons as a species of emigrants, while others might apply the term to foreign malefactors sent or coming into the country. It is possible tho' not recollected, that some might have had an eye to the case of freed blacks, as well as malefactors.

    James Madison Letter to Robert Walsh, November 27, 1819 (emphasis added)

    Well, I start off with saying that it`s a big problem. I don`t like to get involved with the Federal Government very much, but I do think it is a federal responsibility to protect our borders....And that`s why I don`t think our border guards should be sent to Iraq, like we`ve done. I think we need more border guards. But to have the money and the personnel, we have to bring our troops home from Iraq. Ron Paul

    Totally free immigration! I`ve never taken that position...Well, you work on both. The most important is the welfare state, but you can still beef up your borders and get rid of some incentives for illegals....Ron Paul


    More at: http://www.vdare.com/articles/ron-pa...al-sovereignty

    In order to give Congress the power to ban the importation of slaves without admitting them to be property they gave it power over immigration, they could have just used the word "slaves" without admitting them to be either persons or property but some wanted to give Congress the power to control immigration, Madison admits this and Jefferson is quite clear that "we may exclude them from our territory".
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
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    You may remember I was for open borders when I got here in '07 - even Ron Paul's stance on the border was something I had to just sorta agree to disagree and still support him.

    It wasn't until I saw the graph I looked at that I just posted, saw the presentation that accompanied it, and let that all sink in for a while before I changed my mind and decided that the liberty gained from open borders vs. the liberty lost was completely out of proportion and there was no way that allowing open immigration, or even our current immigration policies to continue would in any way lead us to a more liberty friendly society.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It wasn't until I saw the graph I looked at that I just posted, saw the presentation that accompanied it, and let that all sink in for a while before I changed my mind and decided that the liberty gained from open borders vs. the liberty lost was completely out of proportion and there was no way that allowing open immigration, or even our current immigration policies to continue would in any way lead us to a more liberty friendly society.
    It wasn't until I realized that my liberty was exclusively dependent upon the purposeful exercise of my innate rights,
    without infringing upon any other man's innate rights, at times in spite of the legalisms and illegalisms of the state,

    and let that all sink in for a while,

    that I came to terms with the notion that any unlawful infringement upon another man's innate liberty,
    by myself or my agent, regardless of its institutional legality is my own condemnation

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    It wasn't until I realized that my liberty was exclusively dependent upon the purposeful exercise of my innate rights,
    without infringing upon any other man's innate rights, at times in spite of the legalisms and illegalisms of the state,

    and let that all sink in for a while,

    that I came to terms with the notion that any unlawful infringement upon another man's innate liberty,
    by myself or my agent, regardless of its institutional legality is my own condemnation
    wtf?



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    It wasn't until I realized that my liberty was exclusively dependent upon the purposeful exercise of my innate rights,
    without infringing upon any other man's innate rights, at times in spite of the legalisms and illegalisms of the state,

    and let that all sink in for a while,

    that I came to terms with the notion that any unlawful infringement upon another man's innate liberty,
    by myself or my agent, regardless of its institutional legality is my own condemnation

    Ya, except that our immigration program is a giant government program that destroys everybody's rights, taking property that belongs to natives and giving it away to immigrants. We have a huge welfare state and we are basically just bringing millions of communists here who will vote for bigger government.

    Did you really look closely at that graph? Open immigration is clearly going to completely sabotage any shot we have at liberty.

    We would literally just be throwing everything away that our ancestors fought for. Separation of Church and State, capitalism, private property, everything gone just so we can protect our liberty to freely cross borders while we do NOTHING else at the government level to give us the freedom to deal with what that entails.

    Again, I think open borders are an important component of a free society, but when you have people who are 80% for bigger government on one side of the fence who all want to come to the other side where less than half want bigger government, and they want to go so they can take resources from them through government programs -wow - I just can't rationalize doing that at all, I just don't see how doing something that will take us 20 steps back from liberty just so we can go one step forward is good for liberty.

    I guess I'm looking at it more from a practical side. I know it isn't always good to say, "well, we need to give up this liberty to keep that liberty", but in this situation it's so horribly imbalanced I just can't see how it would possibly turn out well at all.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's one thing to support unlimited immigration in a free market, or even a relatively free market - that seems liberty oriented to me.

    But what doesn't seem liberty oriented to me is completely destroying any future hope of having liberty by providing a big government program and incentives for immigrants who would not choose to come here otherwise and who want big government at nearly double the rate of natives.

    You've posted that leftist social science graphic about 90 times now. Usually if one repeats something enough people will believe it, but to me it doesn't get any more convincing. Why? Because I actually read the Pew studies instead of credulously buying Stef's out-of-context spew.

    In that study, Pew pretty much asked "Do you want free stuff?" It's like a Frank Luntz nightmare.

    When they asked "Do you want free stuff if you have to pay for it?" the percentages dropped precipitously. In fact, the Hispanic numbers interestingly dropped more precipitously than when whites were asked. In other words, the whites didn't mind paying more taxes.

    Pew also found that Hispanics have been shown to believe in the efficacy of hard work in much higher percentages than the general populace. Hispanics self-identify as libertarian pretty much identically with whites (11% & 12% respectively.)

    You have to face the fact that 95.54% of general election voters explicitly voted for larger government in 2016. Even if 40 million new beaners trot across the border in the next year and we instantly hand them voter registration cards, it's not going to make any difference whatsoever to your freedom.

    Actually maybe it will. In 2016 twice the number of Hispanics as whites polled supported the Libertarian Party ticket. Say what you want about Johnson. He was the only one saying both the warfare and welfare states should be shrunk.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    wtf?
    He's saying that a closed border is anti-liberty, which is correct. Having a closed border may prevent a peaceful person from coming here and working and earning their own money and making their own way in life which they should be allowed to do.

    It took me a while, but looking at the bigger picture, from a practical standpoint open borders or even our current immigration system is going to completely destroy the rest of our liberty that we still do have, and make it impossible to turn back in the other direction of increasing our liberty, so it is hard to make the argument that we should save that one liberty at the expense of all the others.

    I mean, for one thing, just because we open our borders doesn't mean we are allowed down there. I can't become a citizen of Mexico or own property. It just seems like a one way path to destruction.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    You've posted that leftist social science graphic about 90 times now. Usually if one repeats something enough people will believe it, but to me it doesn't get any more convincing. Why? Because I actually read the Pew studies instead of credulously buying Stef's out-of-context spew.

    In that study, Pew pretty much asked "Do you want free stuff?" It's like a Frank Luntz nightmare.

    When they asked "Do you want free stuff if you have to pay for it?" the percentages dropped precipitously. In fact, the Hispanic numbers interestingly dropped more precipitously than when whites were asked. In other words, the whites didn't mind paying more taxes.

    Pew also found that Hispanics have been shown to believe in the efficacy of hard work in much higher percentages than the general populace. Hispanics self-identify as libertarian pretty much identically with whites (11% & 12% respectively.)

    You have to face the fact that 95.54% of general election voters explicitly voted for larger government in 2016. Even if 40 million new beaners trot across the border in the next year and we instantly hand them voter registration cards, it's not going to make any difference whatsoever to your freedom.

    Actually maybe it will. In 2016 twice the number of Hispanics as whites polled supported the Libertarian Party ticket. Say what you want about Johnson. He was the only one saying both the warfare and welfare states should be shrunk.
    Did they ask different questions to the different groups?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    When they asked "Do you want free stuff if you have to pay for it?" the percentages dropped precipitously. In fact, the Hispanic numbers interestingly dropped more precipitously than when whites were asked. In other words, the whites didn't mind paying more taxes.
    Molyneux has addressed this specifically several times and believes that it is a function of IQ that white people who want government services are more often willing to pay for them because they realize it needs to be paid for whereas more hispanics believe they can get free services without paying the taxes.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    Actually maybe it will. In 2016 twice the number of Hispanics as whites polled supported the Libertarian Party ticket.
    If this is true, that is a good thing, but unfortunately from a practical standpoint libertarians are an extreme minority in all racial makeups so I don't think the hispanic libertarians are going to put us over the edge when the vast majority want bigger government, compared to the native population.

    BTW, I have a lot more of these graphics if you want, that one I post is just the most obvious to me that shows there is a huge problem with open immigration.


    Last edited by dannno; 02-12-2018 at 02:02 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

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