Donald Trump's 3 positions on abortion in 3 hours

[presence]

Premeditation is why it is murder. They didnt ACCIDENTALLY end up in the room at the abortion clinic with papers signed allowing the killing....they premeditated that.

Legally, that is first degree murder as that definition is:

First Degree Murder - intent to kill + premeditation and deliberation

both murder and voluntary manslaughter involve "premeditation" / "malice aforethought"; the distinction is provocation which needs only pass a "desperation" test.

"accidentally" would be IN-voluntary manslaughter.

involuntary manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter#Voluntary_manslaughter

[cajuncocoa]

I would be open to a system of uniform scaled justice from conception; say for example... weekends of community service per week of

gestation^2

so if you abort in week one you owe 1^2 or one weekend of community service.
if you abort in the 3d week you owe 3^2 or 9 weekend of community service
in the 10th week 10^2 = 100 weekends of community service (2 years)
in the 20th week 20^2 = 400 weekends of community service (7 years)
in the 30th week 30^2 = 900 weekends (17 years)
in the 40th week 40^2 = 1600 weekends (31 years)

I'm not. Life begins at conception. Now what?

And taking a life (my belief) is too grave of a "crime" to give a penalty of "community service." Now what?

[65fastback2+2]

both murder and voluntary manslaughter involve "premeditation" / "malice aforethought"; the distinction is provocation which needs only pass a "desperation" test.

"accidentally" would be IN-voluntary manslaughter.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter#Voluntary_manslaughter

Wrong... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_manslaughter

Voluntary manslaughter is the killing of a human being in which the offender had no prior intent to kill and acted during "the heat of passion", under circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to become emotionally or mentally disturbed.

How you are mixing murder and manslaughter up together when there are CLEAR differences is beyond me.

[squirl22]

If you're going to make the case that abortion is murder, I think you have to hold the woman responsible as well. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. She is the one seeking the abortion, after all. I don't think those high and mighty moralists have the stomach for that, and that's why Trump had to back down.

If you don't like abortions, don't have one. That's the only way to stop them. Government should not be part of that equation....and if you try to bring government in on the equation, women will just find a way around that. We always have.

Well stated. What I don't understand is that there are some states that have laws that if you kill a pregnant woman you are also charged with murder for the unborn fetus...now, how can that make sense? So, everyone is guilty of murder except the woman? I always have felt that if abortion is considered taking the life of human than the woman has to be charged also...I think Trump was right originally, he should have stuck with it.

[65fastback2+2]

Well stated. What I don't understand is that there are some states that have laws that if you kill a pregnant woman you are also charged with murder for the unborn fetus...now, how can that make sense? So, everyone is guilty of murder except the woman? I always have felt that if abortion is considered taking the life of human than the woman has to be charged also

Spot on! A state will charge a man with murder for killing an unborn child as long as he isnt a) the mom and b) a licensed doctor.

If that isnt lunacy, I dont know what is.

[cajuncocoa]

@presence -- I hope you can see that, right here in this thread, there is no consensus on abortion, even among your fellow RPF members who consider themselves pro-Life (myself among them.) Sorting this out is not going to be easy, that was the point I was making all along.

[presence]

How you are mixing murder and manslaughter up together when there are CLEAR differences is beyond me.[/B]

Then lets be clear, there are 3 classes here:

Murder: Malice + Premeditation

Voluntary Manslaughter: (Malice + Premeditation) - Provocation

Involuntary Manslaughter: No Malice, No Premeditation, but Negligence or Homicide while committing an unlawful act

I'm making the case for abortion to fall into Voluntary Manslaughter. It is done with malice and premeditation, in light of the provocation of "desperation"

[presence]

@presence -- I hope you can see that, right here in this thread, there is no consensus on abortion, even among your fellow RPF members who consider themselves pro-Life (myself among them.) Sorting this out is not going to be easy, that was the point I was making all along.

Doubtless. But I think we should pursue consensus however difficult.

[cajuncocoa]

Spot on! A state will charge a man with murder for killing an unborn child as long as he isnt a) the mom and b) a licensed doctor.

If that isnt lunacy, I dont know what is.

Um....let's not turn this into a male vs female thing on this point. They would similarly charge a woman too in certain situations. I recognize, however, that fathers have no say in whether the mother of their child gets an abortion -- that's 100% wrong.

[cajuncocoa]

Doubtless. But I think we should pursue consensus however difficult.

I already told you the only way that can happen: post #20 (not saying everyone will be happy with the results, but it would be scientifically, medically, and legally sound.)

[65fastback2+2]

@presence -- I hope you can see that, right here in this thread, there is no consensus on abortion, even among your fellow RPF members who consider themselves pro-Life (myself among them.) Sorting this out is not going to be easy, that was the point I was making all along.

I think the problem is people are scared to just admit what it needs to be based on a) scared to drive people away b) scared a stance they take will happen to them and they'll have to change later.

Example, "So you think raped women should have to carry the child and raise it when they didnt want it? What if that happened to your wife/girlfriend?"

Then the person goes "well crap, if my wife got raped, I can see not wanting the child, its better its gone than be raised by people that done want it....ok, I'll make that an exception!"

Then 1 exception turns into 1000 and then its "aw to heck with it, if you dont want one, dont get one".

Too many people, too scared, unfortunately.

[65fastback2+2]

Then lets be clear, there are 3 classes here:

Murder: Malice + Premeditation

Voluntary Manslaughter: (Malice + Premeditation) - Provocation

Involuntary Manslaughter: No Malice, No Premeditation, but Negligence or Homicide while committing an unlawful act

I'm making the case for abortion to fall into Voluntary Manslaughter. It is done with malice and premeditation, in light of the provocation of "desperation"

Manslaughter does NOT have premeditation. Quit including it.

[65fastback2+2]

Um....let's not turn this into a male vs female thing on this point. They would similarly charge a woman too in certain situations. I recognize, however, that fathers have no say in whether the mother of their child gets an abortion -- that's 100% wrong.

"Man" was gender neutral here for the purposes of the sentence.

[cajuncocoa]

Manslaughter does NOT have premeditation. Quit including it.

I agree....he's going to easy on the mother. If you're going to do this, you're going to have to man up.

[presence]

Manslaughter does NOT have premeditation. Quit including it.

Voluntary manslaughter

Main article: Voluntary manslaughter

Voluntary manslaughter occurs either when the defendant kills with malice aforethought

Malice aforethought was the "premeditation" or "predetermination" (with malice) that was required as an element of some crimes in some jurisdictions,^[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought

[65fastback2+2]

I agree....he's going to easy on the mother. If you're going to do this, you're going to have to man up.

Im just shocked its somehow so difficult.

Involuntary manslaughter - killed someone but didnt mean to.
Voluntary manslaughter - killed someone under extreme external circumstances in the heat of the moment, with no prior desire to kill them.
Murder - Sat around and thought about killing someone then went and killed them.

[65fastback2+2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malice_aforethought

You need to do some further thinking here..."malice" premeditated is NOT killing premeditated.

Look up the definition of malice and try again.

Here, though, I'll give you an example to help you out.

"Joe usually comes walking down my sidewalk every morning and right through my yard, and I am SICK OF IT! I'm going to put some boards up so that he has to walk this other way across my yard and hopefully he trips on that one part of raised concrete. Maybe that'll teach him a lesson and he'll quit walking in my yard"

This happens, Joe trips, hits his head on the pavement and dies.

Voluntary manslaughter.

[presence]

You need to do some further thinking here..."malice" premeditated is NOT killing premeditated.

Voluntary manslaughter occurs either when the defendant kills with malice aforethought (intention to kill or cause serious harm)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

[65fastback2+2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

Let me use a dictionary for you

Full Definition of malice1
: desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another
2
: intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse

Please find "kill" or "murder" in there....dont worry, i'll wait.

[CPUd]

what's the difference between murder and homicide?

[presence]

Let me use a dictionary for you



Please find "kill" or "murder" in there....dont worry, i'll wait.

http://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/malice.html

malice n

1 a : the intention or desire to cause harm (as death, bodily injury, or property damage) to another through an unlawful or wrongful act without justification or excuse

[65fastback2+2]

all you're doing is working on proving voluntary manslaughter is actually murder LOL

[jbauer]

If you're going to make the case that abortion is murder, I think you have to hold the woman responsible as well. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. She is the one seeking the abortion, after all. I don't think those high and mighty moralists have the stomach for that, and that's why Trump had to back down.

If you don't like abortions, don't have one. That's the only way to stop them. Government should not be part of that equation....and if you try to bring government in on the equation, women will just find a way around that. We always have.

No kidding, why aren't the pro life folks out campaigning for Trump. If you truly believe its murder the why not hold the murderer responsible?

[65fastback2+2]

what's the difference between murder and homicide?

Homicide is someone was killed, but we dont know why yet and cant classify it yet.

Good, quick read: http://criminal.lawyers.com/felonies...-homicide.html

Manslaughter and murder are both homicides. And this is why cops will be "investigating a homicide to see if there was foul play"

[65fastback2+2]

No kidding, why aren't the pro life folks out campaigning for Trump. If you truly believe its murder the why not hold the murderer responsible?

Because we know he isnt pro-life....exhibit a) his 3 flip flops in 3 hours.

[presence]

all you're doing is working on proving voluntary manslaughter is actually murder LOL

voluntary manslaughter is provoked
murder is unprovoked

this distinction has been in jurisprudence since the 7th century BC.


http://www.rossgoodmancriminaldefens...vs-murder.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_%28lawgiver%29

[65fastback2+2]

voluntary manslaughter is provoked
murder is unprovoked

this distinction has been in jurisprudence since the 7th century BC.


http://www.rossgoodmancriminaldefens...vs-murder.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_%28lawgiver%29

Doesnt work like that really: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma...ng-of-suspect/

[presence]

Doesnt work like that really: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/oklahoma...ng-of-suspect/

That case hung on the fact that he obtained a second weapon, reloaded, and summarily executed the perp who he had already shot/injured and who was submissive on the floor; effectively arrested by citizen in custody.

It was found the pharmacist essentially executed after the fact; the perp was at that point his ward.

[Peace&Freedom]

If you're going to make the case that abortion is murder, I think you have to hold the woman responsible as well. Otherwise, you're being hypocritical. She is the one seeking the abortion, after all. I don't think those high and mighty moralists have the stomach for that, and that's why Trump had to back down.

Noting the mother is responsible does not mandate she be charged or punished, as depending on the state or jurisdiction, mitigating factors, and focus of the law enforcement effort, the overall interests of justice do not require it. We all know offenders are not always charged, and that different laws may apply in making a charging decision. The purpose of Matthews asking a hypothetical question while demanding a solitary answer was not to seek moral clarity, but to drive a wedge between the candidate and women (stoking the genders wars of 2016.).

The main pro-life view is that the unborn have a right to life that should be legally protected, the details of which protection are to be restored to the states to figure out---not whether there should be a monolithic way of enforcing it across 50 states. Matthews did a Bugs Bunny "duck season" number on Trump (Daffy Duck, who was talking about "rabbit season," or local enforcement) on this occasion, to address exactly the wrong question (national enforcement). Matthews worked Trump into saying "duck season, fire!," and the pol/pundit regime has been firing.

I think the problem is people are scared to just admit what it needs to be based on a) scared to drive people away b) scared a stance they take will happen to them and they'll have to change later.

Example, "So you think raped women should have to carry the child and raise it when they didnt want it? What if that happened to your wife/girlfriend?"

Then the person goes "well crap, if my wife got raped, I can see not wanting the child, its better its gone than be raised by people that done want it....ok, I'll make that an exception!"

Then 1 exception turns into 1000 and then its "aw to heck with it, if you dont want one, dont get one".

Too many people, too scared, unfortunately.

If we don't kill a born baby based on the bad circumstances under which it was conceived, neither should we kill a pre-born baby based on the bad circumstances under which it was conceived. Again, the pro-abortion faction wants to protect general legal abortion at the national level, by diverting the discussion to nationalizing a position on hard cases, cases that would be decided differently per state once Roe was thrown out, and the issue returned to the states.

[cajuncocoa]

Noting the mother is responsible does not mandate she be charged or punished, as depending on the state or jurisdiction, mitigating factors, and focus of the law enforcement effort, the overall interests of justice do not require it.

Why not? Why wouldn't you want to hold the person who is responsible....responsible? I think that's a cop-out, and exposes some hypocrisy on part of some pro-life (anti-abortion) activists.