Trump unveils Middle East peace plan with two-state solution

[Swordsmyth]

Again, if it's nbone of our business, why are we talking?

Peace doesn't have to be our business.
Telling Israel it has to give back various pieces of land is not our business.

[Swordsmyth]

Then you are having a monologue not a dialogue and are not negotiating. You can't have any deal without both parties agreeing. The timing seems to be a distraction from Netanyahu's corruption case.

Trump closed the US diplomatic mission to Palestine in 2018. The Palestinians were talking up until that point. He cut off the communications.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...dle-east-peace





More at link.

We still talk to them.
They always refused to discuss a peace plan with us.

[AngryCanadian]

Peace doesn't have to be our business.
Telling Israel it has to give back various pieces of land is not our business.

America should be a normal nation more like Canada ya know a nation that doesn't militarily intervene or tries to pretend to be a World Police officer?

[Origanalist]

Unless you want us to use force to give the Palestinians what they want then we have to deal with the facts on the ground and what Israel is willing to do when proposing a plan.

It's called reality, it's just like the fact that we have to deal with that the CCP rules China.

It's called the reality created by the Balfour Declaration, we're just the latest stooges enforcing it. Spin it any way you want, we're still Israel's bitch or we wouldn't even be there "standing by Israel".

[Swordsmyth]

It's called the reality created by the Balfour Declaration, we're just the latest stooges enforcing it. Spin it any way you want, we're still Israel's bitch or we wouldn't even be there "standing by Israel".

Much of reality is unpleasant and unfair, but you can't improve it if you refuse to deal with it.
Arranging a peace deal would be good for everyone and the only alternative would be the successful use of force on one side or the other.
Just staying out of it doesn't change the reality that you dislike.

[Zippyjuan]

We still talk to them.
They always refused to discuss a peace plan with us.

It is Israel they would need to talk to- not the US. You said we should not be involved anyways. As it is, this is the US telling them what they should be doing. And that is not going to go anyplace.

[Swordsmyth]

It is Israel they would need to talk to- not the US.

We are trying to get them to.

You said we should not be involved anyways.

I never said we shouldn't try to arrange a peace deal.

As it is, this is the US telling them what they should be doing. And that is not going to go anyplace.

We arranged for the Israelis to offer them the best deal they are ever going to get, that's not us telling them what they should do.
It's not going to get anyplace because they don't want peace.

[TheTexan]

It is Israel they would need to talk to- not the US. You said we should not be involved anyways. As it is, this is the US telling them what they should be doing. And that is not going to go anyplace.

You're right, they wouldn't listen to the US telling them what to do. But the US isn't telling them what to do, Trump is.

And they'll listen to Trump because they respect him. Trump is widely respected with Israel, with the Palestinians, with pretty much everybody across the globe.

[Zippyjuan]

It was designed to fail- it offers the Palestinians none of the things they have been asking for in previous negotiations. Even the land swap is bad for them- Israel takes the fertile lands next to Jordan in exchange for some vacant deserts in the south. All they are really offered is the $50 billion which is not guaranteed (the US is not putting up the money- Israel is not putting up the money- they hope to get Arab countries to pledge the money but none have done so). Israel in turn gets most of everything they wanted. It is a very one-sided "deal".

For Trump, it distracts from the impeachment hearings, for Netanyahu, it distracts from his corruption charges (it was announced the very day he said he would not seek immunity- not that he would have been granted it anyways).

[Swordsmyth]

It was designed to fail- it offers the Palestinians none of the things they have been asking for in previous negotiations. Even the land swap is bad for them- Israel takes the fertile lands next to Jordan in exchange for some vacant deserts in the south. All they are really offered is the $50 billion which is not guaranteed (the US is not putting up the money- Israel is not putting up the money- they hope to get Arab countries to pledge the money but none have done so). Israel in turn gets most of everything they wanted. It is a very one-sided "deal".

Maybe the Palestinians should have agreed to be involved in creating the plan.
Maybe they should agree to negotiate and suggest improvements.

[TheCount]

It's none of our business.
Or do you want us to play world police?

Hilarious

[Swordsmyth]

Hilarious

Not really.
We are supposed to worry about our own sovereignty and borders, we are not supposed to try to police everyone else and their conflicts to make them end up "correctly".

[Origanalist]

Much of reality is unpleasant and unfair, but you can't improve it if you refuse to deal with it.
Arranging a peace deal would be good for everyone and the only alternative would be the successful use of force on one side or the other.
Just staying out of it doesn't change the reality that you dislike.

Define everyone, does that include the Palestinians?

[Swordsmyth]

Define everyone, does that include the Palestinians?

Yes.

They would be much better off with this deal than they are.

[Origanalist]

Not really.
We are supposed to worry about our own sovereignty and borders, we are not supposed to try to police everyone else and their conflicts to make them end up "correctly".

You're all over the board here. We ARE policing everyone's conflicts, including this one. We're doing exactly what you say we shouldn't be doing, yet you say we should.

[Origanalist]

Yes.

They would be much better off with this deal than they are.

According to who? Since when do you get to determine what's best for someone clear over there?

[Swordsmyth]

You're all over the board here. We ARE policing everyone's conflicts, including this one. We're doing exactly what you say we shouldn't be doing, yet you say we should.

How are we policing this conflict?
Suggesting a peace plan is diplomacy not policing.

[Swordsmyth]

According to who? Since when do you get to determine what's best for someone clear over there?

I get to have an opinion.
But it's pretty clear that it would be an improvement.
Right now Israel just does whatever it wants anyway.
I am not calling for them to be forced to take this deal, I'm just saying they are stupid to refuse to even negotiate about it.

[Origanalist]

How are we policing this conflict?
Suggesting a peace plan is diplomacy not policing.

No it's not. Telling them this is their last chance and putting them under the thumb of Israel isn't suggesting a peace plan, it's knuckle under or else.

[Origanalist]

I get to have an opinion.
But it's pretty clear that it would be an improvement.
Right now Israel just does whatever it wants anyway.
I am not calling for them to be forced to take this deal, I'm just saying they are stupid to refuse to even negotiate about it.

You get to have an opinion, but you're just some guy on the internet. Palestinians don't care what you think, nor should they. Anymore than you care what they think about what goes on over here.

[Swordsmyth]

No it's not. Telling them this is there last chance and putting them under the thumb of Israel isn't suggesting a peace plan, it's knuckle under or else.

No, we have no obligation to use our influence on Israel to help them and if they refuse to even talk about this deal then we should let them deal with the consequences.
They are already under Israel's thumb, we are not putting them there, we are offering a way to get them out from under. (or at least reduce the down pressure)

Doing nothing isn't going to help them and we shouldn't use force on Israel whether you think Israel is wrong or not.

[Swordsmyth]

You get to have an opinion, but you're just some guy on the internet. Palestinians don't care what you think, nor should they. Anymore than you care what they think about what goes on over here.

And your point is?

The same applies to the ChiComs but that doesn't make them right or mean that we should give them whatever they want, especially if it would mean using force on Taiwan or some other 3rd party.

Why don't you try telling me what you think we should do?

[Origanalist]

No, we have no obligation to use our influence on Israel to help them and if they refuse to even talk about this deal then we should let them deal with the consequences.
They are already under Israel's thumb, we are not putting them there, we are offering a way to get them out from under. (or at least reduce the down pressure)

Doing nothing isn't going to help them and we shouldn't use force on Israel whether you think Israel is wrong or not.

Who said anything about using force on Israel? Lol, like THAT is going to happen.

[Swordsmyth]

Who said anything about using force on Israel? Lol, like THAT is going to happen.

That's the only way to arrange a deal that's better for the Palestinians than this one.

Why don't you try telling me what you think we should do?

[Origanalist]

And your point is?

The same applies to the ChiComs but that doesn't make them right or mean that we should give them whatever they want, especially if it would mean using force on Taiwan or some other 3rd party.

Why don't you try telling me what you think we should do?

Other than stopping the financing of the worlds biggest welfare queens nothing. Cut the cord and let them deal with life. Israel would be in no position to dictate to anyone without outside assistance .

[Swordsmyth]

Other than stopping the financing of the worlds biggest welfare queens nothing. Cut the cord and let them deal with life. Israel would be in no position to dictate to anyone without outside assistance .

I agree we should stop giving money to Israel but they would still be in a position to do whatever they wanted with the Palestinians.
They don't need our money, that's one thing that makes it even more scandalous that our politicians keep giving it to them.

[Origanalist]

I agree we should stop giving money to Israel but they would still be in a position to do whatever they wanted with the Palestinians.
They don't need our money, that's one thing that makes it even more scandalous that our politicians keep giving it to them.

They didn't reach that point independently.

[Swordsmyth]

They didn't reach that point independently.

No, they didn't.
But we can't change the past.

If anyone wants to help the Palestinians then the only options are to negotiate a peace deal with Israel (which we are actually in a stronger position to do while we are still giving them money) or the use of force.

[Origanalist]

No, they didn't.
But we can't change the past.

If anyone wants to help the Palestinians then the only options are to negotiate a peace deal with Israel (which we are actually in a stronger position to do while we are still giving them money) or the use of force.

Lol, we don't influence Israel, they influence us.

[enhanced_deficit]

Trump Middle East plan: Palestinians reject 'conspiracy'

• 8 hours ago

Palestinians have dismissed US President Donald Trump's new Middle East peace plan as a "conspiracy".

It envisages a Palestinian state and recognition of Israeli sovereignty over settlements in the occupied West Bank.

Mr Trump said Jerusalem would remain Israel's "undivided" capital, but the Palestinian capital would "include areas of East Jerusalem".
Reacting to Tuesday's announcement, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Jerusalem was "not for sale".

"All our rights are not for sale and are not for bargain," he added.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas says the "conspiracy deal won't pass"

Palestinians took to the streets on Wednesday as part of a "day of rage" called by political factions.
The Palestinian health ministry said three people were injured by live fire in clashes between protesters and Israeli security forces near Ramallah in the northern West Bank. They are in a stable condition.
Several people were also injured by rubber-coated bullets during a protest in the village of Abu Dis, in the eastern suburbs of Jerusalem, and one person was hit by a rubber bullet near Arroub camp in the southern West Bank, according to the Palestinian Wafa news agency.

Meanwhile, Israeli Tourism Minister Yariv Levin said a cabinet vote on whether to apply Israeli sovereignty to most Jewish settlements in the West Bank, the strategic Jordan Valley and the northern Dead Sea had been delayed for several days for technical and procedural reasons.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had said the vote would take place on Sunday.
More than 600,000 Jews live in about 140 settlements built since Israel's 1967 occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The settlements are considered illegal under international law, although Israel disputes this.

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said the Trump administration had simply "copied and pasted" the steps that Mr Netanyahu wanted to see implemented.
"It's about annexation, it's about apartheid," he said. "Moving to the de jure annexation of settlements is something that was given the green light yesterday."

And Mr Netanyahu?

The Israeli prime minister described Mr Trump's plan as the "deal of the century".
Israel "will not miss this opportunity", Mr Netanyahu said.

Jordan said the only path to peace was to establish an independent Palestinian state, based on pre-1967 boundaries, while Turkey's foreign ministry dismissed Mr Trump's proposals as an "annexation plan" aimed, it said, at killing a two-state solution and stealing Palestinian land for money.

bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51292865




Mr Trump's blueprint for solving one of the world's longest-running conflicts was drafted under the stewardship of his son-in-law, Jared Kushner.

Meet Jared Kushner

Kushner: Helped draft Donald Trump’s AIPAC speech, advises the presumptive Republican nominee for president on Israel issues and is involved in assembling his White House transition team; Kushner’s newspaper endorsed Trump for president
Kushner, the publisher of the New York Observer and husband of Ivanka Trump, is rising within the presumptive GOP nominee's world in the wake of campaign manager Corey Lewandowksi's ouster, sources within Trump's circle told NBC News.

Jared Kushner is wreaking havoc in the Middle East
The entire Middle East, from Palestine to Yemen, appears set to burst into flames after this week. The region was already teetering on the edge, but recent events have only made things worse. And while the mayhem should be apparent to any casual observer, what’s less obvious is Jared Kushner’s role in the chaos. Kushner is, of course, the US president’s senior advisor and son-in-law.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...oc-middle-east