Do VTAC handgun sights shoot low for everyone or just me?

[phill4paul]

So I just bought a Model#209920 S&W M&P .40 with a 4.25 barrel. It came with VTAC sights.

Granted, I ain't the greatest pistol shooter. Granted, my eye-sights not the best. Granted, I only stopped by the gun range real quick and only put 30 rds. through it at ten feet.

But of those thirty rds. I had to seriously walk it up. As in shoot ABOVE what I wanted to hit. On target it consistently was placing shots 7" low. At ten frikken feet.

Left or right of target I'm not worried about. That's all me. Stance, grip, etc. on a new gun. That can be worked out. But, damn, 7" below at ten feet? Really?

Guess I'll take it down and put at least 100 through it next time. Ask if any other shooters will try it and see their results. I've never had a straight up newly purchased fire arm fail so horribly. Not at ten frikken feet.

[phill4paul]

Seems to be an issue. Still I'm gonna go to the range Monday and put 100 rds. through it and if anyone else is there let them shoot and see what it does.

This is back from 2011.

FYI, if your M&P shoots low (like 5" at 7 yards or so). S&W will send you a replacement sight with a lower profile to correct the problem.

I wracked my brain and resources trying to figure out the problem (flinching? trigger pull? ammo weight?). I put a laser on the pistol (mine is specifically an M&P40) and it stayed dead straight through my trigger pull. It shot a little higher with heavier ammo.

I let some other guys try it and they shot low too.
I even tried using other sighting techniques (even though I use the sight technique that results in the highest shot (I think it's #3 where the front sight white dot is dead center on the target) still shot low.

I want to use this for home protection so it was totally unacceptable.

After banging my head against the wall I called S&W and the guy said "oh, you need a lower front sight, hold please." 5 seconds pass, he comes back I give him my address and he says "It's in the mail"

YAY S&W. You guys are pretty awesome.

https://www.northeastshooters.com/xe...lution.166496/

[Stratovarious]

Dumb question but did you 'sight' it, on the bench?

[phill4paul]

Dumb question but did you 'sight' it, on the bench?

Good question actually. No, I did not bench sight. I don't ever plan on having a bench to fire my handgun from. This is not my only hand gun. These sights just seem to be "off" in a big way.
They are VTAC sights. Part iron sight, part fiber optic sight, part Tritium sight. I sighted off the iron and fiber and it was consistently low. I've read if you place the front Tritium dots in alignment with the back fiber optic sights it decreases this conundrum. But, then, what is the point? Iron, fiber optic, and Tritium should all be in balance.
I dunno. Gonna go put a 100 rds. through it Monday. If there are other shooters there will let ask them to shoot and compare my experience to theirs. If I can't resolve the problem then will contact S&W.

[Stratovarious]

Good question actually. No, I did not bench sight. I don't ever plan on having a bench to fire my handgun from. This is not my only hand gun. These sights just seem to be "off" in a big way.
They are VTAC sights. Part iron sight, part fiber optic sight, part Tritium sight. I sighted off the iron and fiber and it was consistently low. I've heard if you place the front Tritium dots in alignment with the back fiber optic sights it decreases this conundrum. But, then, what is the point? Iron, fiber optic, and Tritium should all be in balance.
I dunno. Gonna go put a 100 rds. through it Monday. If there are other shooters there will let ask them to shoot and compare my experience to theirs. If I can't resolve the problem then will contact S&W.

That's not the point of bench siting anything, bench sight it, then you'll want to marry it.

[phill4paul]

That's not the point of bench siting anything, bench sight it, then you'll want to marry it.

It's a handgun with fixed sights. There is no adjustment like on a rifle scope. It either is or ain't.

[Swordsmyth]

It's a handgun with fixed sights. There is no adjustment like on a rifle scope. It either is or ain't.

You can always file down the front or back sight.

[phill4paul]

You can always file down the front or back sight.

It's a brand new out of the box handgun. Still under warranty. I ain't filing $#@!. And besides I can't file fiber optics or Tritium.

[Stratovarious]

It's a brand new out of the box handgun. Still under warranty. I ain't filing $#@!. And besides I can't file fiber optics or Tritium.

That sucks, I'd be considering a good Slingshot in trade...

[Danke]

Just you.

[phill4paul]

Just you.

Apparently. So, I put a hundred through it today. I've been trying different things with my failing eyesight. First 50 rds were again low and to the left. So I just tried using my top focal instead of the bottom 'readers." $#@! was blurry as all hell trying to focus between the two, so I just tried to 'relax' my eyes. I'm right eye dominate. Though blurry I was able to see using the fiber optic portion of the VTAC sights. The last 30 rds. were in the 5" bull at 21 ft. So, some more range time using the new sighting method and we'll see where it goes.

[phill4paul]

There is, however, a new problem. It's called a 'dead trigger.' Started happening around the 50th rnd. This is when the gun chambers a round but the trigger does not reset for firing. From what I've read S&W had this problem in their 1st Gen M&P's. But, mine is a 2nd Gen (not a 2.0). and should not have his issue. Again, it could be the user, me. I may not be allowing the trigger to move all the way forward. I don't think that is it, but I'll have to go put some rds. through it with that in mind to see. This happened about 5 times in my last 3 mags. I've read up a bit and it looks like two options if the gun is the problem. I've found a detailed work through by a gunsmith that reworked the trigger system for a competition shooter. Not something I'd try myself and don't know how much a gunsmith would charge, but I plan to ask around. There is also the option of dropping an APEX Tactical S&W M&P Trigger Forward Set Sear into it, which I could do on my own. I dunno. Shoulda stuck with another wheel gun instead. But, it is a comfortable gun to shoot. Just got to work out it's kinks, and mine.

[kcchiefs6465]

There is, however, a new problem. It's called a 'dead trigger.' Started happening around the 50th rnd. This is when the gun chambers a round but the trigger does not reset for firing. From what I've read S&W had this problem in their 1st Gen M&P's. But, mine is a 2nd Gen (not a 2.0). and should not have his issue. Again, it could be the user, me. I may not be allowing the trigger to move all the way forward. I don't think that is it, but I'll have to go put some rds. through it with that in mind to see. This happened about 5 times in my last 3 mags. I've read up a bit and it looks like two options if the gun is the problem. I've found a detailed work through by a gunsmith that reworked the trigger system for a competition shooter. Not something I'd try myself and don't know how much a gunsmith would charge, but I plan to ask around. There is also the option of dropping an APEX Tactical S&W M&P Trigger Forward Set Sear into it, which I could do on my own. I dunno. Shoulda stuck with another wheel gun instead. But, it is a comfortable gun to shoot. Just got to work out it's kinks, and mine.

Do you have to chamber another round or if you release the trigger does it reset?

Not quite familiar with short recoil actions (Striker fired) but I've owned a couple DAO that did the same thing. Glocks will also do that if the trigger doesn't come forward enough after the shot. You can feel when it resets on the trigger.

[phill4paul]

Do you have to chamber another round or if you release the trigger does it reset?

Not quite familiar with short recoil actions (Striker fired) but I've owned a couple DAO that did the same thing. Glocks will also do that if the trigger doesn't come forward enough after the shot. You can feel when it resets on the trigger.

To reset I have to chamber another round. It just started happening towards the last couple of mags. I'm going to have to go put another 100 rds. through it with attention to fully let off the trigger and see what is going on. The newer M.20's are supposed to have worked this out. My version comes before the .20's, just original M&P build. However, this problem was supposed to have been worked out prior to my build of '14.

[phill4paul]

Do you have to chamber another round or if you release the trigger does it reset?

Not quite familiar with short recoil actions (Striker fired) but I've owned a couple DAO that did the same thing. Glocks will also do that if the trigger doesn't come forward enough after the shot. You can feel when it resets on the trigger.

O.K. Don't even have to have to put rds. through it. Broke it down and the issue that was discussed in forums was a 1/16 spring, which had been replaced by a 1/8th spring. I've got the 1/8th" spring. So I just dry fired 20 times. Each time racking with my finger fully off the trigger. 50% failure rate. I could opt for the Apex trigger/set sear upgrade, but think I'll just send it back to S&W.
Well, at least I've worked my eyesight problem to a point I can live with. So, there is that.

[kcchiefs6465]

O.K. Don't even have to have to put rds. through it. Broke it down and the issue that was discussed in forums was a 1/16 spring, which had been replaced by a 1/8th spring. I've got the 1/8th" spring. So I just dry fired 20 times. Each time racking with my finger fully off the trigger. 50% failure rate. I could opt for the Apex trigger/set sear upgrade, but think I'll just send it back to S&W.
Well, at least I've worked my eyesight problem to a point I can live with. So, there is that.

Best of luck.

The couple of S&Ws I've fired have been very reliable. Picked up a Shield a couple weeks back based on that experience (I have a couple buddies with them and the guns are solid) but have not taken it to the range yet. Now I'm a little nervous of my EDC.

Luckily I have an old $#@!ty Taurus that randomly throws every sort of jam so I am fairly comfortable at clearing whatever comes up. I can't in good conscience sell the gun, can't let the wife carry it so I guess it is just an oddity piece to keep me good on my toes in case of a failure.

[phill4paul]

Best of luck.

The couple of S&Ws I've fired have been very reliable. Picked up a Shield a couple weeks back based on that experience (I have a couple buddies with them and the guns are solid) but have not taken it to the range yet. Now I'm a little nervous of my EDC.

Luckily I have an old $#@!ty Taurus that randomly throws every sort of jam so I am fairly comfortable at clearing whatever comes up. I can't in good conscience sell the gun, can't let the wife carry it so I guess it is just an oddity piece to keep me good on my toes in case of a failure.

You shouldn't be nervous. S&W is usually pretty solid. I just put in a service request. I'll update as it progresses. Jamming is one thing. I can clear a jam. At least I know it is malfunctioning. But, when a round is chambered and there is no boom on the booger switch it is a grave concern. I should have stuck with wheel-guns. Lol.

[oyarde]

The only S & W I currently own is a revolver . The 9mm I use is a Hi Point made in ohio. Works great, I have 3 or four mags for it . I do not currently have a .40 .One of my Sons has an S & W 40 I think he has never mentioned any problems but I will ask him next time I see him.

[phill4paul]

The only S & W I currently own is a revolver . The 9mm I use is a Hi Point made in ohio. Works great, I have 3 or four mags for it . I do not currently have a .40 .One of my Sons has an S & W 40 I think he has never mentioned any problems but I will ask him next time I see him.

Thanks oyarde, please do that. So I contacted S&W. Their customer service is right on it. Gave me a pdf to copy for the free shipping. Said it would take 6-7 weeks. No cost.
O.K. that's great and all. Good to know a company today guarantees it's products.
However, I got to thinking all they will do is drop in another company trigger. No particular upgrades besides that it works.
So I think I'll just order an Apex Forward Set Sear kit. @$130 and comes with 2 springs for either a 4# or 5# pull.

[Root]

Congratulations on your new pistol phill4paul.

[phill4paul]

Congratulations on your new pistol phill4paul.

Thanks. Been wanting a .40 semi-auto for a while. Kinda sucks that I ran into this trigger re-set problem, but better right here at the beginning than later. From everything I've researched putting in the Apex FSS will make it right and better than factory by far. Other than that I've come to love it. Ergonomics work for me w/ the medium palm-swell. Now that I've worked out sighting issues w/ the VTAC the fiber optics are working great and giving a quick target acquirement. I like the handgun. Just cannot abide in one that doesn't fire when needed. But, from everything I've studied replacing the FSS with the APEX is a game changer on this particular handgun. And had I not experienced a problem I probably wouldn't have looked into it. So, everything happens for a reason. So they say.

[phill4paul]

Put the Apex trigger in. Cannot recommend enough. Sucks that S&W couldn't manufacture with level of ...niceness?
Put 100 rds. through it. It cleared up a serious problem. I was shooting low/left. I'm a wheel-gun man and I'm fine with my wheel-guns. Through practice and feel. This semi-auto, my first, is a different beast. It's not my wheel .357 or .38.
I was doing some anticipation hard trigger pulls. This caused the whole low/left shooting. This new APEX caused me to concentrate more as it went from a 7+# factory trigger pull to a 4#. This was a dynamic change. And it will take more practice. Gonna have to buy bulk tomorrow.
Which leads me to...
Even with the FSS I still had 7 misfires in a hundred rounds. So was I getting trigger re-set problems with the new FSS? WTF?
Now with a wheel-gun that is not so much a big deal. You just squeeze the trigger and go to the next round. With the Semi-auto you have to 'rack' it. That to me is unacceptable.
But, I looked at these seven rounds. All were indented on the primer. They SHOULD have fired. Winchester .40 165 grain. Range master asked "White box?", said "Yes" he said "then try something different."
My wheel guns just aren't so picky, and I understand the appeal of 15 rds. vs. six, but this is just a different beast altogether.

[oyarde]

Phil , ya should probably just keep the wheel gun and get a Thompson to carry . The fun thing about shooting something with my old pair of Navy revolvers is at close range it does not just kill it but with all that powder it may set it on fire too. As far as semi autos go the only things smaller than .45 I use regular are muh 9 made in ohio , an old all steel constructed .32 auto made in california.I have a lot of magazines for those , hard to find though for that old .32 I have run thousands of rounds through that 9 with no problems , also thousands through a rock island .45 . Mostly I just get a short shotgun.

[phill4paul]

Phil , ya should probably just keep the wheel gun and get a Thompson to carry . The fun thing about shooting something with my old pair of Navy revolvers is at close range it does not just kill it but with all that powder it may set it on fire too. As far as semi autos go the only things smaller than .45 I use regular are muh 9 made in ohio , an old all steel constructed .32 auto made in california.I have a lot of magazines for those , hard to find though for that old .32 I have run thousands of rounds through that 9 with no problems , also thousands through a rock island .45 . Mostly I just get a short shotgun.

Lol. Yeah, probably shoulda just stuck to my wheel guns. But, the more I shoot it and work out my kinks the more I am growing to like it. Though a wheel gun and Thompson would be a preferable combo.

[phill4paul]

After a week of dry fire, penny on forward sight, and sight acquisition training (also dry fire) , I'm now in love.
Put 90 rds through it at the range. At 3 yards. 30 all in 6" center. At 7 yds. 30 rds. 7 slight (less than 1") misses on the 6" center. At 10 yrds. 30 rds. 6" center, seven outside less than 3", one wild at 7".

No round failures. Switched from Winchester White box 165 grn. To MagTech 180 grn. ( bought bulk at 1k for $250).

I like my wheel guns. Never had an ammo failure. The hammer falls solid. But, I'm getting into this semi-auto. It performed well today. ALL problems shooting outside the 6" center was on me.

Now that I've had a chance to do dry fire training, these VTAC sights are great. And they did a good job today. My eyesight is not so good so the dry fire exercises allowed my eyes muscle memory to attain target acquisition.

In short..

It wasn't the gun or sights. It was me.

But, the APEX trigger and FSS were paramount to making me a better shooter through making a better handgun. I could have had a gunsmith file and clean, etc, and it would have cost me as much as my own install of a better system.