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Thread: When RPF's was born...

  1. #31
    Maybe we should all take a day and examine our navels.
    "The Patriarch"



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  3. #32
    Decuck yourselves. RPF is about:

    Shutting down the SJW's.
    Building the border wall.
    Deporting the illegals.
    Putting SWC Hillary in jail.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018



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  5. #33
    To chime in about getting back to the Constitution, first of all, I would vote for someone who wanted to do that, but that isn't the issue here. I've spent plenty of time debating this topic with people, and using the Constitution as my justification leaves me at a disadvantage, because you can look at it in a way that many of the things we oppose can be considered Constitutional.

    The 14th amendment is a nightmare for people trying to claim that the federal government doesn't have the authority to control what states do.

    Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


    If the federal government deems something a "privilege of citizens of the United States", Congress has the power to stop a state from denying that privilege. Social Security? Health care? Clean air? That's how they justify it, and I have no leg to stand on. And that doesn't even mention the general welfare or commerce clauses that we all know about.

    It's hard to argue to "get back to the Constitution" when the reality is so muddled because of a poorly written and horribly amended document. Some of us go to the moral arguments, but when you do that you end up at anarchy, not constitutionalism.

  6. #34
    For me, the biggest difference is foreign policy and war sentiment. I think most here had a tendency to be passionately anti-interventionist in the past. Ron vs. Rudy was the defining moment. For me personally, that exchange helped to align an innate impulse for peace with conservativism.

    trump supporters will half-heartedly tell you he seems more anti-war than, say, Hillary. But they don't seem to care whether or not he is. It's incidental and somewhat conditional. The fear of illegals is primary, and it sounds identical to the fear of terrorists that was prevalent back in 2008. Tom Tancredo was way ahead of the curve.

    I think the forum is now slanted against those for whom ending war was top priority. I'm a one-issue voter about it. But I'm feeling like part of a small minority these days. Today in other threads, I'm trying to find out whether Bannon (who is praised by a majority of current RPF'ers) is anti-war. Nobody seems to know or care. On another thread, one of the top posters of recent months is arguing for the draft. There are shockingly few voices being raised against his argument.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    It's hard to argue to "get back to the Constitution" when the reality is so muddled because of a poorly written and horribly amended document. Some of us go to the moral arguments, but when you do that you end up at anarchy, not constitutionalism.
    What the revisionist constitutionalists don't understand is that "getting back to" the constitution requires CHANGING the constitution.
    Irony.
    Last edited by otherone; 11-17-2016 at 04:40 PM.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  8. #36
    Because "we" are small in numbers. However, I do find it odd that in the midst of a Liberty movement that seemed to be gaining steam...an alt right movement was born and the leader is now president.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Maybe we should all take a day and examine our navels.
    That or Trumps navel. We don't have a lot of range these days.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    For me, the biggest difference is foreign policy and war sentiment. I think most here had a tendency to be passionately anti-interventionist in the past. Ron vs. Rudy was the defining moment. For me personally, that exchange helped to align an innate impulse for peace with conservativism.

    trump supporters will half-heartedly tell you he seems more anti-war than, say, Hillary. But they don't seem to care whether or not he is. It's incidental and somewhat conditional. The fear of illegals is primary, and it sounds identical to the fear of terrorists that was prevalent back in 2008. Tom Tancredo was way ahead of the curve.

    I think the forum is now slanted against those for whom ending war was top priority. I'm a one-issue voter about it. But I'm feeling like part of a small minority these days. Today in other threads, I'm trying to find out whether Bannon (who is praised by a majority of current RPF'ers) is anti-war. Nobody seems to know or care. On another thread, one of the top posters of recent months is arguing for the draft. There are shockingly few voices being raised against his argument.
    we
    should hang out more.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknownuser View Post
    Because "we" are small in numbers. However, I do find it odd that in the midst of a Liberty movement that seemed to be gaining steam...an alt right movement was born and the leader is now president.
    if he didn't run for president he never would have become the leader

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesse James View Post
    if he didn't run for president he never would have become the leader
    And I'm unconvinced that the alt-right emerged from the liberty movement.
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    Maybe we should all take a day and examine our navels.
    I was already doing that when I found out it's secretly connected to another part of my body.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    And I'm unconvinced that the alt-right emerged from the liberty movement.
    From the paleos (who think they're libertarians).

    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    And I'm unconvinced that the alt-right emerged from the liberty movement.
    True, but I will admit that a lot of former Paul supporters are now alt right.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    I was already doing that when I found out it's secretly connected to another part of my body.
    Innie bellybutton - I'm not sure what it's connected to but when I clean it (it smells like an odd combination of coconut oil and stank), I feel my tummy wiggle. Could be why I like the What's for dinner thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul View Post
    The intellectual battle for liberty can appear to be a lonely one at times. However, the numbers are not as important as the principles that we hold. Leonard Read always taught that "it's not a numbers game, but an ideological game." That's why it's important to continue to provide a principled philosophy as to what the role of government ought to be, despite the numbers that stare us in the face.
    Quote Originally Posted by Origanalist View Post
    This intellectually stimulating conversation is the reason I keep coming here.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Innie bellybutton - I'm not sure what it's connected to but when I clean it (it smells like an odd combination of coconut oil and stank), I feel my tummy wiggle. Could be why I like the What's for dinner thread.
    Gently scratch it with your fingernail.

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Suzanimal View Post
    Innie bellybutton - I'm not sure what it's connected to but when I clean it (it smells like an odd combination of coconut oil and stank), I feel my tummy wiggle.
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    And I'm unconvinced that the alt-right emerged from the liberty movement.
    I don't believe the alt right emerged from the liberty movement but it sure distracted everyone didn't it? Perhaps it has served its purpose.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    The anarchists took over, drove out most of the libertarians, gradually converted the dominant philosophy from the one espoused by Ron Paul to something very very very very different. And now the place is a running joke with zero real-world relevance except to document the decline and fall of the liberty movement in the face of leadership abdication.

    Judging by your Constitution thread, you don't actually understand Dr. Paul's political positions. He is a libertarian and he doesn't have any problems with anarchists.

    The admins can simply go through my ignore list if they want to see who needs to be removed to restore a wisp of credibility.

    Those setting themselves up as the single one who knows everything are the ones usually so ignorant they don't understand hwo badly wrong they are. It si called the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Look it up.

    I used to refer people to this site all the time; but in its present condition I would be far too embarrassed to do so.
    Well if those you referred were like you, bring'em on. Maybe they're opening to learning more instead of imposing their worldview on others.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    And I'm unconvinced that the alt-right emerged from the liberty movement.
    it didn't. The Alt. Left has been around forever. The Turner Diaries were published in 1978.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Then you'd be for banning Ron Paul himself. Which is no surprise to see on this forum given how radically different it has become from his vision.



    He specifically calls out the anarchists for being unrealistic, that their ideas require human beings to be perfect, which is something that will never happen. It's the exact same argument that I've been consistently making here all these years... I suppose it's because I'm one of the few who actually listened to him?


    Now I'm just questioning if you actually listened to that video at all. He said that teh ultimate goal is self-government and that his goal was to always be moving in that direction.

    He didn't dismissed anarchism. He in fact said that we are moving more and more to the point of when governments would be irrelevant. We just are there yet, but we are moving that direction.

    In other words, exactly what Jesse James said.

    You need to stop putting your words and your beliefs into Ron Paul's mouth. You only make yourself look more and more foolish when you do.

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    The "anarchists" don't own this forum. The "anarchists" didn't drive anyone out.
    What happened is, you and yours can't respond to the arguments put forth by "anarchists".
    If you believe in the truth of your position, then argue for it. Present the truth of your position, deal with rebuttals, and if your position is better, then your position will become the dominant position here.

    If you just bitch about how things aren't the way they used to be, and refuse to examine the facts on the ground, then you're gonna lose. That's the way life works. That's what we market-oriented folks are supposed to be advocating. You compete, or you lose. There is a marketplace of ideas here, and your ideas aren't finding buyers. It's not the "anarchists" job to be silent so your position looks better.

    In order for that to happen - particularly the rebuttal part - you're going to have to LISTEN. And since your post insinuates that you don't believe "anarchists" are libertarians, and since you believe "anarchists" believe something very very very very (four verys) different from Ron Paul's position, that tells me you have a lot to improve on the listening front.
    Members such as myself did debate anarchists. Pointing out inconsistencies in Rothbard's writings is a sure way to drive them off because many of them could not reason out the consequences of those contradicting ideas.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  26. #52
    This place was happening in 2008 & 2012, the purity people forced it into irrelevance in 2016, Brian was in at tough spot either way.
    Had he allowed the site to evolve organically things might have been different. This is not the only site either, 2016 really polarized both websites and posters. Actually Reddit seems to me to be the most relevant website taking the true pulse of reality now.

  27. #53
    I check into /r/Libertarian/ every so often. It definitely resonates better with my line of thinking than RPF does these days. Is there anywhere else a libertarian can go that's not dominated by 5 or 6 heavy-posting trump freaks?
    Partisan politics, misleading or emotional bill titles, and 4D chess theories are manifestations of the same lie—that the text of the Constitution, the text of legislation, and plain facts do not matter; what matters is what you want to believe. From this comes hypocrisy. And where hypocrisy thrives, virtue recedes. Without virtue, liberty dies. - Justin Amash, March 2018

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Members such as myself did debate anarchists. Pointing out inconsistencies in Rothbard's writings is a sure way to drive them off because many of them could not reason out the consequences of those contradicting ideas.
    I would like to believe you. Do you remember threads, so I can verify?

    Also, I've only read The Case Agasint The Fed.So Rothbard doesn't figure very prominently in my thought process. Which is probably why I missed your no-doubt elegantly savage ruination of the stateless mindset.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I would like to believe you. Do you remember threads, so I can verify?

    Also, I've only read The Case Agasint The Fed.So Rothbard doesn't figure very prominently in my thought process. Which is probably why I missed your no-doubt elegantly savage ruination of the stateless mindset.
    Here is one I could find http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...light=Pericles

    The original thread had some good material and another at about the same time.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    Here is one I could find http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...light=Pericles

    The original thread had some good material and another at about the same time.
    Looks like a good conversation. I didn't read the whole thread, but disagreeing with how Rothbard believed the free market would handle reputations doesn't prove or even suggest that it couldn't handle the issue. If there was no state, there would still be a system of law which, depending on market preferences, may or may not address it. Or you would just have a high demand for good information on people and companies, which someone would surely cash in on satisfying.

    But back to the point, if debates like that chased away the anarchists, then how is it that people are crying that it was the anarchists chased away the statists?



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    Looks like a good conversation. I didn't read the whole thread, but disagreeing with how Rothbard believed the free market would handle reputations doesn't prove or even suggest that it couldn't handle the issue. If there was no state, there would still be a system of law which, depending on market preferences, may or may not address it. Or you would just have a high demand for good information on people and companies, which someone would surely cash in on satisfying. But back to the point, if debates like that chased away the anarchists, then how is it that people are crying that it was the anarchists chased away the statists?
    That thread had only part of the original conversation where I quoted two Rothbard articles - one about the value of reputation tending to make contracts and transactions self enforcing contradicted by another Rothbard article in which he says he assumes everyone lies, and so he pays no attention to reputation .... The real fun thread was on voluntaryism in which the question is when someone withdraws consent to the rules by which a society operates, does said person have an incentive to essentially screw over everyone else because there is no redress against someone who does not consent to the arbitration or court process in use. Then the string about hiring security companies and so on. All of that missed the point that if someone withdraws consent, he does not recognize the security company or arbitrator you select. That finally went to the then the security company will force you to appear - which of course if you are involuntary brought into a process with which you did not consent, how is that different from the modern state? Then there was the LOL at anarchists - had some classics in it.
    Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.

    Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Jdayh View Post
    nice to see you here!! its been awhile , since the dictator kicked you out of DP. (totally not deserved) hope you are well HVAC !!

    (As to your answer, the first post was most accurate)
    I remember you..
    and what I remember. is non-hostile. this place is hostile.
    mostly I avoid it anymore.

    currently, there is an opportunity to continue to spread the message of Liberty..
    we are now "moderate rebels"

    LOL! how funny is that!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    this place is hostile.
    mostly I avoid it anymore.
    Yeah, with you creating quite a bit of that hostility...

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    I would like to believe you. Do you remember threads, so I can verify?

    Also, I've only read The Case Agasint The Fed.So Rothbard doesn't figure very prominently in my thought process. Which is probably why I missed your no-doubt elegantly savage ruination of the stateless mindset.
    damn I liked that!
    savage ruination of the stateless mindset
    after all, why should a mindset have a state.. (of mind) right? when what is truly needed...
    is a "stateless mindset"

    fishy is one clever sophist!
    Last edited by HVACTech; 11-21-2016 at 11:23 PM. Reason: I have no stateless mindset. sorry... LOL!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

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