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Thread: What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash

  1. #1

    What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash

    When Art Villa found out, after one too many boating accidents, that he needed a total knee replacement, he began asking around to see how much it would cost. The hospital near his home in Helena, Mont., would charge $40,000 for the procedure, he says. But that didn't include the anesthesiologist's fee, physical therapy or a stay at a rehabilitation center afterward. A 2015 Blue Cross Blue Shield study found that one hospital in Dallas billed $16,772 for a knee replacement while another in the same area charged $61,585.

    It was in the midst of this confounding research that Villa, who's 68, heard about the Surgery Center of Oklahoma, whose business model is different from that of most hospitals. There, the all-inclusive price for every operation is listed on the website. A rotator-cuff repair for the shoulder costs $8,260. A surgical procedure for carpal tunnel syndrome is $2,750. Setting and casting a basic broken leg: $1,925.

    The catch is that the whole facility is cash-based. It doesn't take insurance of any kind. Not Aetna. Not Cigna. Not Medicare or Medicaid. Patients or their employers pay whatever price is listed online, period. There are no negotiated rates, no third-party reimbursements and almost no paperwork. "We say, 'Here's the price. Here's what you're getting. Here's your bill,'" says Keith Smith, who co-founded the Surgery Center in 1997 with fellow anesthesiologist Steven Lantier. "It's as simple as that."
    Full article at Time.com.
    There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
    (1 John 4:18)



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  3. #2
    Just like almost every other business in America.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  4. #3
    I had to go to an Urgent Care yesterday for a back injury. I received -%20 off the total cost by settling right there in cash. Want to know what is a factor in driving up the cost of healthcare? Insurance.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    Just like almost every other business in America.
    How many business owners give quality work or even give service when they know they will have to wait 90-120 days for payment and have to spend man hours hagling over the amount charged?

  6. #5
    Looks to be an interesting blog read...

    https://surgerycenterok.com/blog/lie...-series-intro/

    After the first of the year, we are going to continue our celebration of the skeptics in the world with a series that I’ve chosen to call, “Lies That You Believe.”
    I will cover various areas in the healthcare industry with various experts and we are going to cover lies that you believe.
    These are lies that the American people have been told, employers have been told, self-funded health plan administrators have been told. And I’ll have a series of experts with me who will explain why these lies are told, who benefits, and these various myths.
    Chad Schmidt, a pharmacist and a very brilliant and funny guy will be joining me, my partner, Jason Sigmund will join me to talk about the allergy and immunology industry here in the country. And I’ll also be joined by my good friend, Collin McNeese of MHBT in Dallas to discuss various ways employers and their health plans have been lied to and basically been duped.
    There will be others, but I wanted to announce this series that will begin after the 1st. Watch for it – “Lies That You Believe.” It should be a lot of fun and it will probably generate a lot of skepticism. And that’s a good thing. Everyone should question more and more what is streaming into their lives and into their homes.
    Thank you for joining me. We’ll see you next time.



    https://surgerycenterok.com/blog/lie...series-part-1/

    This is the first in our series, “Lies That You Believe,” and I would like to begin with some preliminary concepts, and frankly, concerns that I have, as we go down this path together. I have unlearned many things in the past and I can tell you this is not a pleasant process, but I would rather know the truth. I do not profess to know the truth about all things, all that I am asking is that you, as an audience, at least consider the possibility that on some subjects you have been deceived. An open mind will go a long way toward making this series more enjoyable.
    I think it would be good for all of us to identify and acknowledge the lenses through which we see the world and what we initially believe to be true. I initially disbelieve many things that I know others initially believe and with me the burden of proof rests many times, on the person making a certain claim. Somebody sitting across from me, like my good friend Rick Lewis, might initially believe someone that I would disbelieve. Rick is perfect for this series, because he is cordial, open-minded and I think he is open to the possibility that he has been deceived.
    It is people like Rick Lewis for whom I believe this series could be most valuable, and frankly who have inspired me to do this. We will have our first lie that I believe you all believe – and many of them will not be just lies, but deliberate deceptions meant to trick us into believing that one thing is another.
    Thank you for joining me. I look forward to this series and I hope that you do as well.



    https://surgerycenterok.com/blog/lie...series-part-2/

    Here’s a lie you believe: Not-for-profit hospitals don’t make a profit.
    …Not really.
    “Not-for-profit” means they don’t pay tax. That’s what it really means.

    And what a competitive advantage that grants a hospital when they have no tax burden whatsoever. Imagine what your life would be like if you did not pay taxes at all. How would your standard of living change?

    You can tell these so-called not-for-profit hospitals are interested in making a profit just by looking around and seeing all of the billboard advertisements, or seeing television advertisements during the Super Bowl, or watching them buy out physician practices in an effort to maximize their market share in a community.

    “Not-for-profit” means “does not pay tax.” So how do they achieve the accounting fiction of not making a profit? Well, they do this by looking for red ink wherever they can find it. You see, many of these not-for-profit hospitals are making so much money, they have to find red ink wherever they can. Even if they have to invent it with fictional, gigantic hospital charges.

    What they don’t collect, they write off as a loss, which helps them maintain the fiction of their not-for-profit status. This is a lie I think many of you believe, and it’s a good one to start out with. We’ll see you next time.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNxuuDIN20w

    A total of ten in the series.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 03-14-2017 at 03:32 PM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    This is the solution. Front page...
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  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    How many business owners give quality work or even give service when they know they will have to wait 90-120 days for payment and have to spend man hours hagling over the amount charged?
    Exactly. I tell my clients that if they want their homeowners insurance to cover the job, I am happy to give any documentation the insurance company needs, but I expect my client to pay me, and the insurance company can reimburse them later.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  9. #8
    Once, I tried to shop around for a dentist that would take cash. I tried several, and they all gave the same price (for a chipped tooth fix). There was no cash discount. I was finally told that the prices are set and standardized based upon what insurance companies will pay, and that all dentists work from that chart. No doubt there are dentists that would go cheaper with cash, but it is probably hush-hush, and they won't give that out over the phone.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Want to know what is a factor in driving up the cost of healthcare? Insurance.
    You should specify that it is not free market insurance.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
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    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Once, I tried to shop around for a dentist that would take cash. I tried several, and they all gave the same price (for a chipped tooth fix). There was no cash discount. I was finally told that the prices are set and standardized based upon what insurance companies will pay, and that all dentists work from that chart. No doubt there are dentists that would go cheaper with cash, but it is probably hush-hush, and they won't give that out over the phone.
    Makes me wonder if there is a "no competition" type clause the industry uses to keep them from doing it?

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You should specify that it is not free market insurance.
    Good catch. Certainly so.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    Once, I tried to shop around for a dentist that would take cash. I tried several, and they all gave the same price (for a chipped tooth fix). There was no cash discount. I was finally told that the prices are set and standardized based upon what insurance companies will pay, and that all dentists work from that chart. No doubt there are dentists that would go cheaper with cash, but it is probably hush-hush, and they won't give that out over the phone.
    I believe that's called "Price Fixing" and is illegal.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  15. #13

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    How many business owners give quality work or even give service when they know they will have to wait 90-120 days for payment and have to spend man hours hagling over the amount charged?
    Another thing, I've met lots of people who tell me their doctor isn't helping them or they are getting worse. When I ask why don't they see another doctor, the answer is, "This one takes my insurance."

    Healthcare doesn't seem to matter to most people. They seemed more obsessed with worthless/expensive insurance, and doctors who want to take that money.
    ...

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Another thing, I've met lots of people who tell me their doctor isn't helping them or they are getting worse. When I ask why don't they see another doctor, the answer is, "This one takes my insurance."

    Healthcare doesn't seem to matter to most people. They seemed more obsessed with worthless/expensive insurance, and doctors who want to take that money.
    I don't have insurance. If I have an ailment that I can't solve on my own (which is pretty rare), I go see a specialist related to my ailment. If I don't get noticeable results within a month of weekly treatments. I go somewhere else.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I don't have insurance. If I have an ailment that I can't solve on my own (which is pretty rare), I go see a specialist related to my ailment. If I don't get noticeable results within a month of weekly treatments. I go somewhere else.
    I have no insurance either. I'd rather spend my meager earnings on healthy food, exercise, and good times with friends and family. If I do come down with something that those don't help, acupuncture, chiropractic, massage, rolfing, etc, have helped every time.
    ...



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  20. #17
    I think most Chiropractors are quacks.
    CPT Jack. R. T.
    US Army Resigned - Iraq Vet.
    Level III MACP instructor, USYKA/WYKKO sensei
    Professional Hunter/Trapper/Country living survivalist.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I think most Chiropractors are quacks.
    Most are. I'm not about to spend good money to have someone pop a thumper machination on my spine. I have been to actual bone crackers that have helped immensely.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I think most Chiropractors are quacks.
    Yup. You have to find one with an actual background in real medicine. If you can, they're better than orthopedics. Ortho docs just jump to surgery before trying more conservative stuff like joint manipulation. (more profit in surgery and it's easier/faster)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I think most Chiropractors are quacks.
    I've known some great chiropractors who were much more astute in health than any MD I've run into.

    Have also mentioned before about a doctor that my relative went to that took only cash. The total price for a serious cut, stitches, and checkups was $65.
    Last edited by Ender; 03-15-2017 at 12:09 AM.
    There is no spoon.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    I had to go to an Urgent Care yesterday for a back injury. I received -%20 off the total cost by settling right there in cash. Want to know what is a factor in driving up the cost of healthcare? Insurance.
    What created the modern health insurance industry? World War II era wage controls.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK235989/

    One of the most important spurs to growth of employment-based health benefits was—like many other innovations—an unintended outgrowth of actions taken for other reasons during World War II (Somers and Somers, 1961; Munts, 1967; Starr, 1982; Weir et al., 1988). In 1943 the War Labor Board, which had one year earlier introduced wage and price controls, ruled that contributions to insurance and pension funds did not count as wages. In a war economy with labor shortages, employer contributions for employee health benefits became a means of maneuvering around wage controls. By the end of the war, health coverage had tripled (Weir et al., 1988).

    How to get out of this mess? Make health care expenses directly tax deductible by individuals.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I think most Chiropractors are quacks.
    Nonsense. Peer reviewed studies show that chiropractic treatment improves outcomes from back surgery.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21807265

    It's when they go beyond treating spinal injuries to using adjustments to treat everything that there methods become questionable. I once attended a lecture by famed skeptic "The Amazing Randy" where he attacked homeopaths, chiropractors and others. Afterwards I got a chance to talk to him and I brought up that my brothers back had gotten better by going to a chiropractor. Randy said "Oh sure. Chiropractors are good for that. It's the other claims that I have a problem with." He should have included that in his lecture as back injuries are the main reason people go to chiropractors. As I look back at it, I think that was deceptive on the part of the "Amazing Randy."
    Last edited by jmdrake; 03-15-2017 at 06:15 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    What created the modern health insurance industry? World War II era wage controls.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK235989/

    One of the most important spurs to growth of employment-based health benefits was—like many other innovations—an unintended outgrowth of actions taken for other reasons during World War II (Somers and Somers, 1961; Munts, 1967; Starr, 1982; Weir et al., 1988). In 1943 the War Labor Board, which had one year earlier introduced wage and price controls, ruled that contributions to insurance and pension funds did not count as wages. In a war economy with labor shortages, employer contributions for employee health benefits became a means of maneuvering around wage controls. By the end of the war, health coverage had tripled (Weir et al., 1988).

    How to get out of this mess? Make health care expenses directly tax deductible by individuals.
    Oh, yes. I'm well aware of the history of modern health insurance. I did a whole thread on it, or possibly it was just a part of another thread, in the RPF wayback.

  27. #24
    If you couple this with Health Savings Accounts, the health care problems in this country nearly go away. You'll still have people that don't save enough to pay for things, but how is that any different? You can always rely on the charity of your fellow man. This option exists, too. The only difference being is that free market charity tends to dry up when it is being abused.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  29. #25
    Amazing...three or four simple changes and the health care "crisis" is solved.

    The OP is making a point I have for years, that the primary reason health care in the US is so thoroughly monkey $#@!ed is lack of clear cost/benefit comparisons.

    Who in their right mind would make, or could make, a rational decision on a major purchase without clearly knowing what the costs were going in, and what you were going to get in return?

  30. #26
    The answer to good and "affordable" health care is to get the $#@! gov out of the medical/insurance business and let it be resolved on a private basis, between doctors & patients.
    There is no spoon.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    If you couple this with Health Savings Accounts, the health care problems in this country nearly go away. You'll still have people that don't save enough to pay for things, but how is that any different? You can always rely on the charity of your fellow man. This option exists, too. The only difference being is that free market charity tends to dry up when it is being abused.
    ^This. And if the cost of healthcare goes down from people paying cash then the charity cases will be easier to take care of.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Icymudpuppy View Post
    I think most Chiropractors are quacks.
    Many are. But, some are really great.

    Kind of like MDs...
    ================
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    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  33. #29
    Price transparency is the key. The amount charged one person for a procedure, would be the same as the next.

    This would go a long way towards ending the insurance scam of not allowing doctors to offer the rate they give to the insurance company to patients without said insurance.
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Created4 View Post
    What Happens When Doctors Only Take Cash?
    SWAT raids, that's what.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.



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