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Thread: Rand Paul to Obama: "Prioritize" Passage of Trans-Pacific Partnership

  1. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Wow! I know "correlation does not equal causation" but I would be interested in seeing the amount of internal taxes and regulations in the U.S. superimposed on this graph. I'm betting a negative correlation. (The lower the tariffs the higher the internal taxes and regulations.) And look at the dramatic drop in tariffs under Woodrow Wilson? We get the IRS, the Federal Reserve, the "League of Nations" and super low tariffs all under the same globalist president. Hmmmmm......
    IIRC, one of the biggest reasons for the significant decline in tariffs prior to the Wilson administration was a long-term (and ultimately successful) effort to woo the support of anti-tariff farmers and populists for (among other things) a system of internal taxation - including the federal income tax. Farmers & other such interests got significantly lower tariffs in exchange for their support for things like the income tax and greater federal control of the banking system. This culminated in the adoption of the Federal Reserve system and the federal income tax in 1913. Once they got what they wanted, the elites stabbed their erstwhile supporters in the back by jacking tariffs up again (note the sharp upward spike after 1913 ...).
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·



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  3. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Trade deals between sovereign nations shoud be "symbolic", "in good faith", "offering friendship and peace"; not "binding" under "international law".
    Ok, I almost agree with this. I don't like international law. But this is something of a contract. It's international contract enforcement. To ensure countries do not violate the agreement that they entered into. Unless I'm missing it, TPP would not create any laws. I also agree that trade agreements should be in good faith. But that is not reality. In reality, there are contracts to which parties must agree. That being said, those contracts are only on tariff provisions to which the governments must abide. The traders themselves have signed no such contract - they can manage their prices as they see fit.

    Governments don't trade - people do. But governments can secure deals that open the pathways.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire



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  5. #273
    A key element of sovereignty in a legalistic sense is that of exclusivity of jurisdiction. Specifically, the degree to which decisions made by a sovereign entity might be contradicted by another authority. Along these lines, the German sociologist Max Weber proposed that

    sovereignty is a community's monopoly on the legitimate use of force;

    and thus any group claiming the same right must either be brought under the yoke of the sovereign, proven illegitimate, or otherwise contested and defeated for sovereignty to be genuine.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Wow! I know "correlation does not equal causation" but I would be interested in seeing the amount of internal taxes and regulations in the U.S. superimposed on this graph. I'm betting a negative correlation. (The lower the tariffs the higher the internal taxes and regulations.) And look at the dramatic drop in tariffs under Woodrow Wilson? We get the IRS, the Federal Reserve, the "League of Nations" and super low tariffs all under the same globalist president. Hmmmmm......
    And where's the Constitutionality in any of it? This is just another transfer of power to some foreign institution. Internationally managed trade benefits special interests. This is just an extension of NAFTA.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  7. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Actually I reread that WND article this morning and there isn't a single quote or statement from Randal on the subject of this treaty. I doubt he would approve fast track, and I disagree with the implication that making something a priority means giving it fast track authority.

    Which article? This one: http://www.wnd.com/2013/08/rand-paul...al-trade-zone/
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  8. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Yeah, it has Randal in the headline but doesnt' actually have any content from him in the entire article.

  9. #277
    Probably going to get a better idea of support for or against this thing through foreign media. Asia Times is a good one. The BRICS Post, India Today. Some others...

    If nothing else, you'll get a better read on the terms of controversy that we just won't ever hear or read from western legacy media.

  10. #278
    http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/node/3402#.VGJ5qYUrDCc

    This thing is a supersized and nuclearized NAFTA,


    the 1994 trade scam rammed through Congress by Bill Clinton, Wall Street's Robert Rubin, and the entire corporate establishment. They promised that the "glories of globalization" would shower prosperity across our land. They lied. Corporations got the gold. We got the shaft--thousands of factories closed, millions of middle-class jobs went south, and the economies of hundreds of towns and cities (including Detroit) were hollowed out. (Most Mexicans got the NAFTA shafta, too. US grain traders like ADM dumped corn into Mexico, wiping out millions of peasant farmers' livelihoods, and thousands of local businesses were crushed when Walmart invaded with its Chinese-made wares.)


    Twenty years later, the corporate gang that stuck us with NAFTA is back, hoping to fool us with an even more destructive multinational deal. (This calls for another immortal quote from George W: "Fool me once, shame on--shame on you. Fool me--you can't get fooled again." Well, you know what he meant).


    This time we really must pay attention, because TPP is not just another trade deal. First, it is massive and open-ended. It would hitch us immediately to 11 Pacific Rim nations (Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, and Vietnam), and its door would remain wide open to lure China, Indonesia, Russia, and other nations to come in. Second, note that many of those countries already have trade agreements with the US. Hence,

    THIS AMAZING FACT:
    TPP is a "trade deal" that mostly does not deal with trade. In fact, of the 29 chapters in this document, only five cover traditional trade matters!


    The other two dozen chapters amount to a devilish "partnership" for corporate protectionism. They create sweeping new "rights" and escape hatches to protect multinational corporations from accountability to our governments... and to us. Here are a few of TPP's provisos that would make our daily lives riskier, poorer, and less free:


    Food safety.

    Any of our government's food safety regulations (on pesticide levels, bacterial contamination, fecal exposure, toxic additives, GMOs, non-edible fillers, etc.) that are stricter than "international standards," as most are, could be ruled as "illegal trade barriers." Then our government would have to revise our consumer protections to comply with the weaker global standards. Also, our government could no longer ban meat imports that don't meet our safe-to-eat laws, as long as the exporting nation simply claims that its inspection system is "equivalent" to ours. In addition, food labeling laws we rely on (organic, country-of-origin, animal-welfare approved, GMO-free, etc.) would also be subject to challenge as trade barriers.


    Fracking.

    Our Department of Energy would lose its authority to regulate exports of natural gas to any TPP nation. This would create an explosion of the destructive fracking process across our land, for both foreign and US corporations could export fracked gas from America to member nations without any DOE review of the environmental and economic impacts on local communities--or on our national interests. It also means that most of the gas produced by this violently polluting process will not go to us, but to foreign users, which will raise our consumer prices and cut manufacturing growth.


    Jobs. US corporations would get special foreign-investor protections to limit the cost and risk of relocating their factories to low-wage nations that sign onto this agreement. For example, an American corporation thinking about moving a factory would know it is guaranteed a sweetheart deal if it exports to a TPP nation like Vietnam. The corporation could skirt Vietnam's laws and demand compensation at an international tribunal for any government policy or action (such as a hike in the minimum wage) that undermined its "expected" profits.These guarantees would be strong incentives for corporate chieftains to export even more of our middle-class jobs.


    Drug prices.

    Big Pharma would be given more years of monopoly pricing on each of their patents and be empowered to block distribution of cheaper generic drugs. Besides artificially keeping everyone's prices high, this would be a death sentence to many people suffering from cancer, HIV/AIDS, tuberculosis, and other treatable diseases in impoverished lands. The deal would also restrict the rights of our government to negotiate with drug giants to get lower consumer prices with bulk purchases, as Medicare and Medicaid do in the US.


    Banksters.

    Wall Street and the financial giants in other TPP countries would make out like bandits: The deal explicitly prohibits transaction taxes (such as the proposed Robin Hood Tax here) that would shut down super-rich speculators who have repeatedly triggered financial crises and economic crashes around the world; it restricts "firewall" reforms that separate consumer banking from risky investment banking (thus prohibiting Congress from reinstating the much needed Glass-Steagall firewall in our country); it could roll back reforms that governments adopted to fix the extreme bank-deregulation regimen that caused Wall Street's 2007 crash; and it provides a backdoor escape from national rules that would limit the size of "too-big-to-fail" behemoths. These extreme provisions would be enforceable by the banks themselves--TPP empowers them to force governments either to repeal reform laws or to compensate banks with taxpayer money for "losses" they say are caused by reforms.


    Internet freedom.

    Thanks to public rebellion, corporations hoping to lock up and monopolize the internet failed in Congress last year to pass their repressive "Stop Online Piracy Act." However, they've slipped SOPA's most pernicious provisions into TPP. Corporate-created content, for example, would be given copyright protection for a stunning 120 years! The deal would also transform internet service providers into a private, Big Brother police force, empowered to monitor our "user activity," arbitrarily take down our content, and cut off our access to the internet. To top that off, consumers could be assessed mandatory fines for non-commercial, small-scale copying--like sending your mom a recipe you got off of a paid site.



    Public services.

    TPP rules would limit how governments regulate such public services as utilities, transportation, and education, including restricting policies meant to ensure broad or universal access to those essential needs. One especially insidious rule says that member countries must open their service sectors to private competitors, which would allow the corporate provider to cherry pick the profitable customers and sink the public service. Also, corporations from any TPP nation must be allowed to bid on contracts to provide public services in the US on the same terms as American corporations.
    Well, you might think, we'll still have our courts to redress corporate misuse of TPP's provisions. Uh... no. One of the deal's chapters creates a monstrous monkey wrench called the "Investor-State Dispute Resolution" system. In this private, supra-legal "court," corporations are empowered to sue TPP governments over environmental, health, consumer, zoning, or any other public policies that the corporations claim are either undermining their TPP "rights" or diminishing--get this--their



    "expected future profits."
    These "tribunalists" are not accountable to any electorate, and their decisions are final--there's no appeal to a real court. If a corporation wins a case,


    taxpayers


    of the government being sued lose, for they must pony up cash to compensate the corporation for its "loss" of profit.
    Last edited by presence; 11-11-2014 at 03:17 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  11. #279
    Owch. Good post, presence. That's a nice easy one to pass around. I haven't spent as much time as I'd like with regard to the issues of fracking. The old we should drill in every possible conceivable place gag, I found to be alarming just because this is a position based solely upon misguided economic policy abroad and we, of course, see what is happening as nations come into agreement of gas supplies and how they'll move those to each other. We're seeing private property owners here in the states with gag orders forced upon them who were at the receiving end of eminent domain and this should not be abused to take private property from owners who did not consent to fracking on their property which is being done to benefit private developers. And, of course, we would do well to pay attention to the phenomenon in places around the world. The Ukraine is a great example of this.

    Here are a couple of discussions with regard to the fracking thing here on the forums. Although there are way better ones that I recall around here some place.

    Lifelong ‘frack gag’: Two Pennsylvania children banned from discussing fracking
    Frack us! : Documentary
    Measure P (Bans Fracking/High Intensity/Cyclic Steam Injection Drilling in Santa Barbara County)
    Biden Promotes U.S. as Fracking Missionary Force
    The Multi-National Corporate Interests in Urkaine.. same old criminals

    Family awarded $3 million in first US fracking trial


    Really, there is just a boat load of threads that could be bumped for this but I'm not fiddling with it. If there are reasons to bump those then maybe then. Most people understand what is happening with the fracking thing. Well...I guess.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 11-11-2014 at 04:03 PM.

  12. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    IIRC, one of the biggest reasons for the significant decline in tariffs prior to the Wilson administration was a long-term (and ultimately successful) effort to woo the support of anti-tariff farmers and populists for (among other things) a system of internal taxation - including the federal income tax.
    That is my understanding as well.



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  14. #281
    I wish this article was sourced.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  15. #282
    Ban on “Buy American”

    All firms
    operating in any TPP signatory country would get equal access to U.S.
    procurement contracts rather than us recycling our tax dollars here to create American jobs.
    http://www.citizen.org/documents/tpp...flyer-2013.pdf

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  16. #283
    The Trans-Pacific Partnership and Public Health


    The TPP would provide large pharmaceutical firms with new rights and powers to increase medicine prices and limit consumers' access to cheaper generic drugs. This would include extensions of monopoly drug patents that would allow drug companies to raise prices for more medicines and even allow monopoly rights over surgical procedures. For people in the developing countries involved in TPP, these rules could be deadly - denying consumers access to HIV-AIDS, tuberculosis and cancer drugs.



    The TPP would establish new rules that could undermine government programs in developed countries. The TPP would control the cost of medicines by employing drug formularies. These are lists of proven medicines that the government selects for use by government health care systems. Lower prices are negotiated for bulk purchase of such drugs and new medicines that are under monopoly patents are not approved if less expensive generic drugs are equally effective. Drug firms would be empowered to challenge these decisions and pricing standards. In the United States, these rules threaten provisions included in Medicare, Medicaid and veterans' health programs to make medicines more affordable for seniors, military families and the poor.



    TPP would empower foreign pharmaceutical corporations to directly attack our domestic patent and drug-pricing laws in foreign tribunals. Already under NAFTA, which does not contain the new rules proposed for TPP, drug firm Eli Lilly has launched such a case against Canada, demanding $100 million for the government's enforcement of its own patent standards.



    The TPP would also empower foreign corporations to directly challenge domestic toxics, zoning, cigarette and alcohol and other public health and environmental policies to demand taxpayer compensation for any such policies that undermine their expected future profits. Often initiatives to improve such laws are chilled by the mere filing of such an "investor-state" case. In other instances, countries eliminate the attacked policies. For instance Canada lifted a ban on a gasoline additive already banned in the U.S. as a suspected carcinogen after an investor attack by Ethyl Corporation under NAFTA. It also paid the firm $13 million and published a formal statement that the chemical was not hazardous.
    http://www.exposethetpp.org/TPPImpac...ic-Health.html

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  17. #284
    That works! Thank you! +rep
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  18. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Ron Paul has spoken out against this agreement. Do you trust Ron or Rand more?

    Rand Paul spoke out against this agreement in 2013. Do you trust Rand or Rand more?
    Rand was never opposed to the free trade agreement itself, just the fast track authority. As far as I know, he still opposes the fast track authority.

  19. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Is there any one issue that Rand could lose you on? If Rand said "I fully support a woman's right to choose and will never try to undermine Roe v. Wade" would you still support him? Oh I know you'd call his office, but would you still support him? Say if Rand said "While I support the 2nd amendment, we have to stop these mass shootings. Therefore I support mandatory GPS tracking for all newly manufactured guns." Would you still support him then? I get that this issue isn't as important to you as others. But if there isn't some issue that you're not willing to compromise on then you need to re-examine yourself.
    I see what you mean. Yeah, there is certainly one issue that Rand could lose me on. I just don't understand how trade policy could be an issue that would make Rand lose support from libertarians. Many of the libertarians on this forum couldn't support anyone from the Cato Institute or Reason because of their support for these free trade agreements.

  20. #287
    ..
    I Saw the Secret Trade Deal…


    For No Real Reason.
    You spoke, they listened.

    Last month, 10,000 of us submitted comments to the United States Trade Representative (USTR), in which we objected to new so-called free trade agreements. We asked that the government not sell out our democracy to corporate interests.

    Because of this pressure, the USTR finally let a member of Congress – little ole me, Alan Grayson – actually see the text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP). The TPP is a large, secret trade agreement that is being negotiated with many countries in East Asia and South America.

    The TPP is nicknamed “NAFTA on steroids.” Now that I’ve read it, I can see why. I can’t tell you what’s in the agreement, because the U.S. Trade Representative calls it classified. But I can tell you two things about it.

    1) There is no national security purpose in keeping this text secret.

    2) This agreement hands the sovereignty of our country over to corporate interests.

    3) What they can’t afford to tell the American public is that [the rest of this sentence is classified].

    (Well, I did promise to tell you only two things about it.)

    I will be fighting this agreement with everything I’ve got. And I know you’ll be there every step of the way.

    For now, I’ve set up an e-mail address where you can ask me questions on this topic or other topics: askalan@graysonforcongress.com

    I’ll pick a few and answer them by video.

    True Blue Democrats. Get ready. We’re coming.

    Courage,

    Congressman Alan Grayson

    http://alangraysonemails.tumblr.com/...ret-trade-deal
    Last edited by presence; 11-11-2014 at 09:43 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  21. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I just don't understand how trade policy could be an issue that would make Rand lose support from libertarians.
    you wouldn't think they would object on the grounds of national sovereignty at least since so many of them don't think nations should even exist and think they are illegitimate.



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  23. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    you wouldn't think they would object on the grounds of national sovereignty at least since so many of them don't think nations should even exist and think they are illegitimate.
    And many of them are in favor of having completely open borders.

  24. #290
    And many of them realize that to get from here to there, they have to walk through some pretty creepy places.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  25. #291
    So, what is Rand position on TPP?

  26. #292

  27. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    So, what is Rand position on TPP?
    he's always been vague about it, said he wanted to read it first.

  28. #294
    Hasn't it been voted on at this point?
    ================
    Open Borders: A Libertarian Reappraisal or why only dumbasses and cultural marxists are for it.

    Cultural Marxism: The Corruption of America

    The Property Basis of Rights

  29. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    Hasn't it been voted on at this point?
    No, the TPP itself has not been voted on. Right now is the public viewing 60 day period.

    Obama said "now is the time to debate TPP". Of course, it's right when SHTF in Europe and Americans are being terrorized with ISIS boogeyman threats on every corner.

    http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/obam...public-debate/
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book

  30. #296
    Rand said it is around 5,000 pages, he and his staff have gone through a few hundred pages. His default position is that he won't vote for it until he at least goes through the whole thing.



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  32. #297

  33. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    bump
    As usual, you are just seeing what you want to see. This call to move the TPP was before it was even drafted. The moment he looked at it, he rejected it entirely. That is called exhibiting a rational role in politics. But then I understand you are not a big fan of reason in politics.

  34. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by LibertyEagle View Post
    bump
    What was the purpose of this bump?

  35. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    What was the purpose of this bump?
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post6254177

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