Yikes. My apology for the embarrassing mistake. It has been edited to correctly attribute it to you.Originally Posted by phill4paul
No worries. Just setting things straight.
The people that support those things, almost universally are in favor of open borders.
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
And I would wager that most open borders libertarians have a vested interest in addition to ideology. For example, Gary Johnson was in the construction business, no doubt employing illegal immigrant workers. There are few in the construction or home improvement business that do not employee illegal immigrant labor (there are always exceptions). Americans are in the office and do the sales, you’re lucky if one of the actual workers speaks English.
Last edited by Brian4Liberty; 03-22-2021 at 06:48 PM.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
Your faith teaches us that you own nothing.
Leviticus 25:23-28
‘The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me.
1 Corinthians 10:26
for the earth is the Lord’s, and all it contains.
Therefore you cannot claim sovereignty over your property, because there is no such thing in the eyes of the Lord.
I would assume this would be Christ's rule in the 1000 year reign as well.
That's where I got it.
Now, I disagree, strongly, of course.
I think it's suicidal to open the gates to the barbarian hordes, that good fences make good neighbors, and a nation state of people have every sovereign right and duty to guard it's borders with force, repel invasions and prevent entry of undesirables of all sorts for any reason or no reason at all.
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
The Christ's Bible also exhorts slavery...
Ephesians 6:5-9
5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7 With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8 knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
Colossians 3:22
"Bondservants, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, ..."
Sorry. Want nothing to do with anything of this.
What's wrong with illegal workers? They do the jobs americans don't want to. You don't need to speak english to do construction or lanscape work. Mexicans, Guatamaleans etc. are some of the hardest workers I have ever known.
As long as they aren't getting government handouts, I'm all for them.
There is no question it is true for some of them. Whether it is most of them is an open question, but I will concede you may be correct on that front too.
On the construction front, given I work construction here in Arizona, what you wrote about that industry is entirely true. English fluency is the exception and not the rule.
The good old hardest workers meme. One attribute that new immigrants from other “harder working” cultures share is the ability and desire to put on a good show when the boss is around. A Chinese woman working as a programmer once told me “always keep your head down and look busy”. She said “yes” to everything ever asked of her by the boss. They loved her. She did just about nothing for years. I’ve seen the same from Indian programmers.
On the construction side, it’s amazing how long someone can talk on the phone while “working”. All day it seems, as long as the boss is not around. I’ve seen landscapers with their feet up, on the phone, eating and drinking the entire time the boss was gone. I’ve also seen a lot of busy work, including just hitting a wall with hammer for no reason, to make noise. Or moving rocks from one pile to the next by hand just to keep busy.
Obviously, when there is a work situation where those in charge are actually paying attention and understand the work being done, then there is much less room for fooling the boss. Your mileage may vary.
And we should never forget that when the government or parents take care of people, there is no incentive to work. There are a lot of jobs people won’t do in a welfare state.
"Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
"Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
"Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
"Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul
Proponent of real science.
The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.
They were always certain that we had an insufficient number of wealth redistribution engineers in this country.
Out of every one hundred men they send us, ten should not even be here. Eighty will do nothing but serve as targets for the enemy. Nine are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, upon them depends our success in battle. But one, ah the one, he is a real warrior, and he will bring the others back from battle alive.
Duty is the most sublime word in the English language. Do your duty in all things. You can not do more than your duty. You should never wish to do less than your duty.
Both groups use government force to confiscate my property through taxation for their personal economic needs and wants.
JWK
They are neither “liberal”, “progressive” nor are they Republican or Democrat Leaders. They are notoriously evil Socialist Revolutionaries and Globalists who continue to use government force to steal and then enjoy the property which America’s labor, business and investors have worked to create.
But a vast majority are getting "government handouts".
Amazing how a vast majority of illegal entrants work off the books for cash, do not pay taxes on their earned wages, but somehow find their way to our emergency rooms to get free medical care, while their offspring get to use our public school systems, overburdening these systems, which in turn lowers available resources for the children of American Citizens who are taxed to finance these schools.
JWK
When it comes to healthcare and helping the needy, our socialist Democrat Party Revolutionary Leadership has no moral compass whatsoever. They refuse to make the distinction between CHARITABLE GIVING and tax tyranny to support the health care needs of millions of illegal entrants and foreign aliens who have invaded America’s borders.
You're drawing pretty wild and unnecessary conclusions about the verses you took out of context.
No, my faith does not teach me what you're trying to say.
Yes, God ultimately owns everything. And unless you're an atheist, your faith also teaches you that much. (And if you are an atheist, it is actually your own faith that teaches that you have no property rights, nor any other rights, nor the existence of such a thing as objective right and wrong at all.)
But the Bible teaches that within God's creation he has placed man, whom he created in his image, in a special place of mastery over the rest of the earth, with delegated authority and property ownership within that system as God's representatives. Hence commands like, "Thou shalt not steal," make sense and are very important.
Yes, it's vital that we recognize our role in this under God's ultimate headship, and all of us existing ultimately as his property. But the same recognition of God's authority requires us to acknowledge his moral law, and thus to repudiate communism, socialism, and indeed, all forms of statism, inasmuch as they entail rule over others by conquest and violation of God's moral law.
Last edited by Invisible Man; 03-23-2021 at 06:51 AM.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to 69360 again."
Paul's letters to the Romans says you supposed to do precisely the opposite of that.
You are to submit to earthly authority.
Romans 13
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
That's not at all the opposite of what I just said.
Submitting does not equal endorsing.
If a mugger points a gun at your head and demands your money and your life, and you give him your money, that doesn't mean you are now a supporter of mugging people.
And you don't have to go to Paul to see that teaching. Jesus gives variations of that same command repeatedly, and his entire life exemplified living it out, submitting to the powers that were all the way up to the point of his own death. All while simultaneously repudiating the legitimacy of their rule (which Paul also did).
Last edited by Invisible Man; 03-23-2021 at 07:09 AM.
Some are. A lot of them end up on welfare, in a system they didn’t pay into.
Not at illegal, semi-slave wages, they won’t. What keeps those wages down, you think? Is it climate change, or a constant influx of low-skill off-the-books workers?They do the jobs americans don't want to
This isn't what America looked like in 1965, the year that Ted Kennedy’s immigration bill passed Congress and threw open the doors to massive low-skill immigration. In fact, the very jobs which we are told today are simply impossible for native-born Americans to perform were done by many of our parents.
As late as the 1970s, teenaged Americans mowed their parents’ lawns, and sometimes earned extra money doing the neighbors’. Babies got sat by high school girls. Low-wage entry level jobs were typically done by Americans, black and white, who might not have finished high school— so they put their backs and solid work ethics into “dirty jobs” that still offered decent salaries and allowed them to make a living. Working class wages grew steadily over the decades, and blue-collar jobs allowed poor men to become the heads of households, forming stable families.
A number of social changes, including the growth of the welfare state and the demands of toxic feminism, have helped to undermine those healthy realities. Foreign competition cut into many factory jobs. But there were and still are millions of blue-collar jobs that cannot be outsourced to Thailand or Malaysia. But we “outsource” them to foreigners anyway, in the form of recent immigrants. The mass influx of cheap labor offered by eager immigrants has run down the wages for blue-collar jobs, cut off the bottom rungs of the ladder that was once used by poor Americans, and taught America’s elites that it is somehow natural to have all the “grunt” jobs in society performed by poorly paid non-Americans. Labor unions, which once lobbied against mass immigration in order to protect their members’ wages, have mostly been captured by social justice warriors and follow the lead of the only growing and powerful labor organizations—government employee unions, which benefit from importing new clients and voters for the administrative and welfare state.
The phrase “jobs Americans won’t do” is dishonest on the face of it. To be truthful, it would need to be “jobs Americans won’t do at current wages.” Pay them enough, and Americans will do anything. They collect reeking garbage riddled with rats on the streets of ghetto neighborhoods. They work as unarmed guards in maximum security prisons. Some extremely courageous souls even teach in New York City public schools. They do that work because the wages are high enough to make it worth their while—and no one has yet figured out how to shoehorn poorly paid recent legal arrivals from Third World countries into those jobs. Give them time.
Haul out that picture of Stonewall, tack it up with an old gray pin
Raise up them Stars and Bars, the South shall rise again!"- Johnny Rebel
All I know is that to see and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood Speech
"Unless we make sure that there is no infiltration of our country, then just as certain as you sit there, in the period of our lives you will see a red world."
-Joseph McCarthy
Interesting.
So you support wage control laws?
You wrote:
Rebel and repudiate mean the same thing.But the same recognition of God's authority requires us to acknowledge his moral law, and thus to repudiate communism, socialism, and indeed, all forms of statism
2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
I can't speak for Joe, I'll let him reply, but obviously you support government wage controls.
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
In an ideal world, you own a plot of land, and you are the master of the domain of that plot of land, and your neighbors and the surrounding community are in perfect agreement with what rights you have as a land owner.
In the real world, your rights are determined by a combination of 1) your own determination, and 2) your neighbors' determination.
Even in the most perfect, flawless, anarchist world, this will still always be true. Your rights will always be partly determined by your physical neighbors.
Current evidence indicates that the minorities who are fleeing their $#@!hole countries, regardless of how hard they work, make $#@!ty neighbors.
In an ideal anarchist world, it would be perfectly reasonable to buy land that is a member of an anti-immigrant HOA. If you want to live in a community that says "Americans only, no immigrants" that is a legitimate arrangement that can be made, with a legitimate purpose.
Probably about half of Americans would want to restrict immigration to at least a significant extent, and in an anarchist world, they would voluntarily choose to live in communities that enforce those immigration rules.
So while you may think you are pursuing ideological anarchist purity by being anti-immigration, you really are not. The ideologically anarchist pure thing to do, is to recognize that people have preferences in who are their neighbors, and they have a right to make arrangements to that effect.
But people like you, also have the right to secede and form your own communities, that are open borders.
Until property rights are however are respected, none of this matters. We are all living in a prison until property rights are respected, and secession at the state, county, and eventually individual level, becomes legalized & normalized.
- Kim KardashianIt's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!
My pronouns are he/him/his
Illegal immigrants themselves are not protected by our labor, health, and safety laws. They work for cash that is not taxed or reported to the government, in conditions set at their employers’ whims. They do not have the option (for fear of being deported) of reporting dangerous or unhealthy conditions. They have no insurance for workplace injuries. In effect, they are working under the same legal conditions as laborers did in 1880, before government regulations were imposed to protect workers from deadly or dangerous conditions and exploitative rates of pay.
Wherever employers can get away with using illegal immigrants, such laws (including the minimum wage) effectively do not exist.
A radical libertarian might consider that a good thing, but most of us believe that such laws were passed for good reasons. If you wish to repeal them, make your case to the public. But there’s no justification for carving out lawless zones where these valid laws are simply evaded. And of course the presence of a large illegal workforce that will work under nineteenth-century conditions has an impact on the wages of other Americans.
Think about what it means for the legitimacy of policies democratically enacted by legislatures—and the sanctity of the rule of law—that millions of American employers simply flout them with impunity.
Haul out that picture of Stonewall, tack it up with an old gray pin
Raise up them Stars and Bars, the South shall rise again!"- Johnny Rebel
All I know is that to see and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
-Enoch Powell, Rivers of Blood Speech
"Unless we make sure that there is no infiltration of our country, then just as certain as you sit there, in the period of our lives you will see a red world."
-Joseph McCarthy
Not in English they don't.
Jesus repudiated the rule of Caesar without rebelling against him.
Go back to my mugging example, does submitting to the demands of a mugger who threatens you with deadly force mean you don't repudiate mugging?
And it sounds like you're saying you think that's a bad thing.
Let me be clear. Those policies are not legitimate.
And to support the legitimacy of those policies is not to support the rule of law, but to undermine it.
Those who flout them should have impunity.
Last edited by Invisible Man; 03-23-2021 at 07:44 AM.
You certainly have a way with making up nonsense.
In case it's not clear to anyone else, no. I do not support government wage controls.
Sure you do.
The migrant invasion is facilitated by government and Big Business for a number of reasons.
One is to depress wages as a way of managing inflation.
You support the migrant invasion.
Boom: you support government wage controls.
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
Notice your M.O. here and in other posts. You can't quote me saying anything remotely similar to the view you want to impute to me. So you make up some vague statement that doesn't even accurately represent me, like that I support a migrant invasion (I do not). And then you string out a series of unfounded conclusions from that.
If you want to debate me, then you'll have to debate my actual positions, by responding to what I actually say, and not straw men like this.
I'm not going to waste time defending positions that aren't even mine.
Depends.
What did you do after the incident?
Did you report it to cops, testify in court, use the system to jail the perp?
Let's get the conversation back on the rails as well:
Do you believe there will be free markets and the creation and acquisition of wealth under Christ's 1000 year reign?
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
Oh, I apologize...I thought you did not believe in borders at all.
“Civilizations die from suicide, not by murder.” - Arnold Toynbee
It doesn't depend on any of those things. What it really depends on is whether or not you yourself mug others or voluntarily, and not under duress, give aid or verbal endorsement to those who do.
I believe so. If prophecies about that messianic age are taken literally, then the answer is certainly yes. But I'm not sure how literally they should be taken, so I wouldn't say it dogmatically. I believe it will be a world very unlike ours. In economic terms, the concept of scarcity, which is such an essential axiom behind what we understand by the term "markets" may well be inapplicable in that age. If this is the case, then it would mean that prophecies that depict that age in images that their ancient audiences understood did so in analogical language. So I won't claim to know how much the economic laws that describe human behavior in this world that we know will translate into that one.
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