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Thread: My relatives make 20k a year, and live better lifestyles than me making 100k

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by tbone717 View Post
    I am coming in late here, so I do not know if it has been mentioned, but it is very advisable for most people to find a way to incorporate. Corporations buy things, then pay taxes on their profits. Individuals pay taxes on their income and they buy things with the money left over. There is a huge tax advantage for those that can incorporate and have a good tax lawyer that knows the system. A friend of mine owns a bar/restaurant and is incorporated. All of his possessions (car, computers, home, furnishings, etc) are owned by the corporation, he is a low paid employee. We are in the process of setting this up for ourselves this year, and I think we will wind up living a lot better.
    good luck telling that to a person who fears auditing and therefore foregoes his donations to his church, he gave 10% too.



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  3. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    I'm honestly not sure why, but I do think it should be illegal with current minimum wage laws. Maybe because our government is made up of thieves?
    I would think so too.

  4. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    "tip" means "to improve service". It's not charity-it's appreciation for good service and incentive for improved service in the future. (aka, a gratuity)
    But I don't appreciate it any more than I appreciate everybody else doing their job for whatever they are paid. I'm not going to foot somebody's bill just because his boss screws him. He agreed to the job, perhaps with reasonable expectations of tips, but not legal guarantees of it. What is the difference between gratuity and charity? Both are given for nothing in return.

  5. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Noclone View Post
    Moral of the story: Let your wife stay home with the kids... They will all thank you for it later in life.
    agreed.

  6. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    good luck telling that to a person who fears auditing and therefore foregoes his donations to his church, he gave 10% too.
    Oh man, not good. I have been self employed for 20 something years, home office and all and have never been audited. I figure if I ever get audited, I get my attorney to handle it. Just a cost of doing business these days.

  7. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    I'm honestly not sure why, but I do think it should be illegal with current minimum wage laws.
    FWIW, where I live now in New Zealand, tips are truly optional. Wages are set appropriately, and most New Zealanders rarely tip.

    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    The key word your missing is EXPECTED, and I don't agree with word earn- it should be RECEIVE.
    If it was just receive, then the person wouldn't be required to do any work to get their tips, and they would be able to keep everything they get. That's not the way it works.

    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    How do you know they actually DON'T NEED those extra earnings? Maybe they're working for their livelihood, and aren't living in a plush home with parents or off of a trust fund. Maybe they're not a co-owner of the restaurant. And no it's not a definite indication, but I would say a doctor would more often than not need less than someone working as a waiter or waitress.
    You can't tell for sure one way or the other. The homeless person sitting on curb outside the restaurant certainly has a larger need than the waiter or waitress with a job. If you're giving based on need, why not give to them instead?

    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    Tips are truly 100% optional, unless your talking about some type of tip included in the total bill. If I don't want to tip, then I don't have to tip.
    You might be able to get away with not tipping once in a given restaurant. I've seen waitresses run outside and scream at people for not leaving a tip. In some places, you'd be lucky to get out the door without tipping. Yes, it's technically not a crime, but it's expected. If you don't tip, try going back to the same place again, and you're likely to never get your food, or it will be messed with by the staff before it arrives.

    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    Who says everyone tips for the same reason? I've known many waiters and waitresses personally who definitely NEED tips. Maybe you should learn to talk to people.
    You have no idea who I've talked to or what jobs I've had. And I never said that some wait-staff don't need tips. Most do, but not all.

    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    Again, show me documentation that states this. And if the keyword is GIVE, then I am definitely GIVING a tip or a GIFT with NO strings attached. Seems to fit the definition pretty well to me.
    Oh, so you just walk into random restaurants and start handing out money to anyone who works there, whether they serve you or not?

    Most people don't tip unless they're served first, in which case it's not a gift. There are strings, because they require that they are served first. Most people also only tip in proportion to the total cost of the meal. Again, if there were no strings, why should the amount be tied to what you paid?

    The "documentation" is the definition you posted:

    char·i·ty /ˈCHaritē/
    Noun:
    The voluntary giving of help, typically money, to those in need.
    Help or money given in this way.

    But hey, if it makes you feel better to think that the wait-staff didn't actually earn the tip, that you are somehow superior and hugely magnanimous for giving them a gift -- which also implies that they should thank you -- preferably profusely, I'm sure -- then all I can say is I'm sorry that you don't see how horribly demeaning that is. How equating need with work and earning is evil. If I was waiting on you, and you came up to me afterwards and said "You didn't earn this, but I can see that you're in need, so here's a 'gift' for you," I would decline, and you'd be lucky if I didn't punch you in the face.
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  8. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    "tip" means "to improve service". It's not charity-it's appreciation for good service and incentive for improved service in the future. (aka, a gratuity)
    This. It's an assumed part of the restaurant industry because the waiter's/waitresses earnings can't be totally based on hourly wage. It has to be at least partially based on performance in order to provide an incentive for good performance in the future, as heavenlyboy pointed out.
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  9. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    But I don't appreciate it any more than I appreciate everybody else doing their job for whatever they are paid. I'm not going to foot somebody's bill just because his boss screws him. He agreed to the job, perhaps with reasonable expectations of tips, but not legal guarantees of it. What is the difference between gratuity and charity? Both are given for nothing in return.
    You don't get it. It MUST be at least partially based on performance. The BOSS can't pay for the waiter's/waitresses performance because he/she can't determine their performance, only the customer can. Also, they can't REQUIRE you to pay tips either because you might not be giving a tip simply because you weren't satisfied with the performance, but it is entirely expected of you to tip something. Of course it's not illegal to not tip, and thank God we don't have another law like that, but it is definitely a significant part of their income and if you are better at your job, you get more money. The bill is what you pay the company to compensate for the product you consumed, and the tip is the waiter's/waitresses performance-based pay. If they are doing that job, they must expect to get at least something for their performance, or else they should get another job because they can't succeed in that business.
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  11. #249
    \/\/O\/\/
    Last edited by iGGz; 08-13-2012 at 08:08 PM.


  12. #250
    Moral of the story: Let your wife stay home with the kids... They will all thank you for it later in life.
    Or let yourself stay home with the kids, if mommy is making more or is in a steadier industry

  13. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by PaulConventionWV View Post
    You don't get it. It MUST be at least partially based on performance. The BOSS can't pay for the waiter's/waitresses performance because he/she can't determine their performance, only the customer can. Also, they can't REQUIRE you to pay tips either because you might not be giving a tip simply because you weren't satisfied with the performance, but it is entirely expected of you to tip something. Of course it's not illegal to not tip, and thank God we don't have another law like that, but it is definitely a significant part of their income and if you are better at your job, you get more money. The bill is what you pay the company to compensate for the product you consumed, and the tip is the waiter's/waitresses performance-based pay. If they are doing that job, they must expect to get at least something for their performance, or else they should get another job because they can't succeed in that business.
    I do get what they are assuming and expecting, I just don't agree with them, and like you said, I am not required. So it's completely voluntary on my part, until there's a sign that says "all customers agree to tip at minimum _%" or a law that says so, it's my choice and it's a gratuitous gift. The boss CAN pay for the waiter's performance because he has a minimum expectation of it, anybody who does not meet the basics can get fired, or anybody who gets complained by the customer can get fired. Yes, they should get another job if not getting tips would hurt them, that's my opinion, but it's their call, if there's enough people to tip them, I'll be the stiffer. If there's not, that's their problem. I'm fine with explicit rules, I hate implied expectations.

  14. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by AceNZ View Post
    If I was waiting on you, and you came up to me afterwards and said "You didn't earn this, but I can see that you're in need, so here's a 'gift' for you," I would decline, and you'd be lucky if I didn't punch you in the face.
    therefore you should be happy if I stiffed you silently and walked away. Because I can be honest with you, and you can be honest with me, but if you wanna get violent over 5 bucks, I'll avoid you, and save my money.

  15. #253
    Gratuity - a decidedly American thing, for the most part.

    Throughout most of China tipping is not customary. Not only is it not expected, it can produce a variety of reactions when tried - positive and negative, depending on how it's given and to whom it is offered. But regardless, the reaction is typically one of surprise.

    I asked an Australian expat friend, "Was it difficult for you to get used to not tipping when you first moved here to China?"

    His response, "No, mate, it wasn't difficult at all, because we don't tip in Australia. But you yanks have $#@!ed the market up in metropolitan areas with all your tipping."

    There has always been a problem in major metropolitan areas, like Shanghai and Beijing, where foreigners are in great numbers, and where help staff was incentivized to give better service to tippers (typically Americans), and "lesser" service as a consequence, and by contrast, to others. That poses problems to a firm that is marketing to all nationalities, and don't want their market limited to customary tippers, while repelling those who do not tip, but won't come back because of sub-standard service.

    Sure enough, at nicer hotels and restaurants in Shanghai and Beijing, individual tipping could only be discouraged by placing a mandatory gratuity onto each bill. That's a zero sum gain that makes everyone a tipper, regardless of their custom or country of origin. All the firm really needed to do was itemize the cost, to show that "Service" was paid for in full, and we are back to help staff merely having to do their jobs as dictated by management.

    In the U.S., the custom of tipping only showed restaurants, etc., that we are willing to pay more for good service - which meant they could pay their help staff less, because these firms could now factor in tips when hiring. And that's the rub of it all, because if we didn't tip, bars and restaurants would be forced to pay more for help. We would see the same bills, as if we had all tipped, but the wages of the help staff would not be partially dependent on the generosity and/or tipping customs of each customer.

    The rub, in my mind, is that a waiter or waitress cannot negotiate, up front and individually with each customer, for tips. The restaurant or bar can set their price. $3 for a drink, $11.95 for the meal, and that is a binding contract. The help staff, on the other hand, cannot say, for example, "I'll be serving you, and my fee for this service is $___." No contractual obligation whatsoever is established, nor can there be if mandatory gratuities are not applied. Which leaves it to each individual to determine, according to their individual thoughts about gratuity.

    So some people think "Forget it. The help staff is already getting paid, and should be content with their wages. They agreed to their price, and that's not my problem. Anything I give is extra - a "bonus", or a "gift" - so why should I tip someone for just doing their job?". Others, however, will think, "I know that the help staff is getting paid less because the firm factored that in when hiring. So if I don't tip, the waiter/waitress may be working for $2 an hour (in some states)." So a tip comes as a matter of course, even if the service was average. The average food had to be paid for, so why not the average service?

    I don't really have a position on what, if anything, "ought" to be done about it. But I do think it's easy enough to describe accurately - especially pointing to responses in this thread, which stand as strong evidence that virtually everyone has a different thought about tipping, and what it means to each when they do it. Or refrain from doing it.

  16. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    Gratuity - a decidedly American thing, for the most part.



    I don't really have a position on what, if anything, "ought" to be done about it. But I do think it's easy enough to describe accurately - especially pointing to responses in this thread, which stand as strong evidence that virtually everyone has a different thought about tipping, and what it means to each when they do it. Or refrain from doing it.
    I do. Know your rights, the waiter can find a better job, and you can pay what you want. Until there's a law that says otherwise. I can live with being called "rude" or "cheap", I can't live with being pressured or guilted into paying what I have better use for.

  17. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    therefore you should be happy if I stiffed you silently and walked away. Because I can be honest with you, and you can be honest with me, but if you wanna get violent over 5 bucks, I'll avoid you, and save my money.
    It's not the money that would make me consider violence (I said I would turn down the money). It's the demeaning insult.

    How would you know to avoid me, if you treat all servers that way?

    If you honestly think that a server didn't earn a tip, then yes, please walk away rather than showering them with your pity and "charity."
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  18. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    You said it, not me. Quite the assumptions though. I had a feeling you'd drag it down to this level, typical. BTW- I'd knock your sorry NZ ass out after your weak punch to my face and then get you fired from your crappy job
    Not surprisingly, you completely missed my point.
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  20. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Steven Douglas View Post
    The rub, in my mind, is that a waiter or waitress cannot negotiate, up front and individually with each customer, for tips.
    Oh, you'd be surprised what a motivated server can negotiate (either implicitly or explicitly), particularly with repeat customers. Just because it's not often done doesn't mean it can't be done.
    Working on ending viral disease through development of the world's first broad-spectrum antiviral drug. You can help!

  21. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by AceNZ View Post
    It's not the money that would make me consider violence (I said I would turn down the money). It's the demeaning insult.

    How would you know to avoid me, if you treat all servers that way?

    If you honestly think that a server didn't earn a tip, then yes, please walk away rather than showering them with your pity and "charity."
    I don't take chances, I avoid confrontation as much as possible. My rule is servers do their job, I can make a complaint to get them fired, or else they're just doing what they are expected by everybody. I understand nobody shares my views, so I don't need to lecture them, but if you ever ask me, I have no problem telling you "you didn't earn anything extra, but if you need money, just say it". If it's insulting to be told you need money, then logically you can't and shouldn't complain if you're not tipped. Other than public workers, who else isn't expected to greet customers with a smile and "customer is always right"? Who else gets tipped just for making customers welcome at home?
    Last edited by onlyrp; 02-26-2012 at 03:01 PM.

  22. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by AceNZ View Post
    Oh, you'd be surprised what a motivated server can negotiate (either implicitly or explicitly), particularly with repeat customers. Just because it's not often done doesn't mean it can't be done.
    I agree, even a cheapskate like me can be induced into giving up some , some of the time. Not hard either, but "automatically tipping" is not for me.

  23. #260
    \/\/O\/\/
    Last edited by iGGz; 08-13-2012 at 08:08 PM.


  24. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    I don't take chances, I avoid confrontation as much as possible.
    We call that being a coward, a bootlicker, etc. Nazis love guys like you.

    You are actually a hindrance to the rest of us working towards liberty.

    Why are you on this forum? Have you not been banned many times before, honestly?
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  25. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    We call that being a coward, a bootlicker, etc. Nazis love guys like you.

    You are actually a hindrance to the rest of us working towards liberty.

    Why are you on this forum? Have you not been banned many times before, honestly?
    If confrontation is what you call "working towards liberty", go for it, I'm not standing in your way. I am on here because I like reading and talking to people of similar mindset, banned from what?

  26. #263
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    I don't take chances, I avoid confrontation as much as possible. My rule is servers do their job, I can make a complaint to get them fired, or else they're just doing what they are expected by everybody. I understand nobody shares my views, so I don't need to lecture them, but if you ever ask me, I have no problem telling you "you didn't earn anything extra, but if you need money, just say it". If it's insulting to be told you need money, then logically you can't and shouldn't complain if you're not tipped. Other than public workers, who else isn't expected to greet customers with a smile and "customer is always right"? Who else gets tipped just for making customers welcome at home?
    I kind of agree with you. I hate paying tips. The restaurants should set a fixed price and I'll pay it. I go to eat for the food, not for the waiters. That said, I pay the standard 15% to avoid pissing them off. I don't want to come back there again and have them spit in my food.

    There is no reason for this bs tips process. I've worked in the service industry before and at my company tips for employees was banned. That didn't have an effect on service at all. Under my management, the service was excellent. Employees were motivated without tips. Its not the customers job to motivate employees to do their job.

  27. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    I do. Know your rights, the waiter can find a better job, and you can pay what you want. Until there's a law that says otherwise. I can live with being called "rude" or "cheap", I can't live with being pressured or guilted into paying what I have better use for.




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  29. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by iGGz View Post
    And not surprisingly, you missed mine.
    Perhaps. But I did at least have the courtesy to respond in detail to your prior post, rather than just dismissing it.
    Working on ending viral disease through development of the world's first broad-spectrum antiviral drug. You can help!

  30. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by VoluntaryAmerican View Post
    exactly, as you can see, this was back in the days when learning to type would get you a better job. I hated the rest of the movie though

  31. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by onlyrp View Post
    I do get what they are assuming and expecting, I just don't agree with them, and like you said, I am not required. So it's completely voluntary on my part, until there's a sign that says "all customers agree to tip at minimum _%" or a law that says so, it's my choice and it's a gratuitous gift. The boss CAN pay for the waiter's performance because he has a minimum expectation of it, anybody who does not meet the basics can get fired, or anybody who gets complained by the customer can get fired. Yes, they should get another job if not getting tips would hurt them, that's my opinion, but it's their call, if there's enough people to tip them, I'll be the stiffer. If there's not, that's their problem. I'm fine with explicit rules, I hate implied expectations.
    No, the boss cannot pay according to performance. He/she can only pay for the performance he/she expects, but he/she cannot measure the customer's satisfaction or know the perception that the customer had of the wait staff's performance. The boss can pay for doing what they are paid to do, you know, run through the motions, but they cannot possibly come up with a price for how the customer feels about the wait staffer's performance. Only the customer can do that, but regardless, it is earned pay because it is pay for services rendered. This doesn't only include the consumed product, which is what the bill is for, but also for the promptness and friendliness of the wait staff. If the wait staff meets expectations or better, they get a generous tip because they earned it. What they did was WORTH something. If it were just a gift, it would not be worth anything. The reason there's no standard is because of the reasons I mentioned above: you can't have a standard and still allow the customer to decide what the services rendered was worth. If the choice is taken away, then that nullifies the whole purpose of tipping.

    That's so funny that you are fine with expelicit rules, like the ones Congress passes all the time, and yet a free market-oriented service and payment does not earn your respect. Why is this, might I ask? What's so wrong with the implicit expectation that the employee's services are good enough to earn a tip? The ONLY reason we have tips is to provide a performance-oriented incentive for the employees, not as charity. It's a part of the job, not just some whim of good will you have occasionally.

    I'm sure you do tip and that it's because you know it's expected of you because to not tip would be to imply that the wait staff's services were worthless. However, you like to hide your obligation to tip under the facade of altruism. Regardless, tips are payment for a service as I have clearly demonstrated because it is there for the specific reason of giving incentive, not just for generosity. If this is the case, why don't they do that at other jobs?
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  32. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by MelissaWV View Post
    Or let yourself stay home with the kids, if mommy is making more or is in a steadier industry
    Agree with this as well. I stayed home when my first was born, while my wife worked. I was offered a job a few months later with better pay than hers, so we switched. Worked out great! We haven't regretted it for one second. One income and we are making it just fine. Unlike the OP, we know how to manage our income.

  33. #269
    My 2 cents on tipping...
    I was a waitress for 6 years making 2.13/hr. And I made fabulous tips (average $15/hr) because I did a fantastic job for my customers. I had customers come in and ask specifically for me because they knew I would make their dining experience better. Then you'd have the non-tippers come in and as soon as you saw them you'd pray to God they weren't sat in your section because they also tended to be the most needy customers who ran your butt everywhere. I always treated all my customers the same though I would silently curse the non-tippers for ordering an insane amount of food, needing 50 refills, plus this then that then this again for nothing and interfering with the service I was trying to give to my good tippers. We had to report a percentage of our total sales as tips whether we made it or not and that was then taxed, so a group of 4 that ends up ordering $100 worth of food (at Bob Evans mind you) and then stiffed me was indirectly costing me money as I was taxed for what they were supposed to give me. On a couple occasions that $100 table (as they came in once or twice a week) gave me a dollar or two. One guy with missing fingers used to wave my dollar tip at me and make me grasp for it while he'd pull it away. Sure I'd laugh along, but all the while seething because Mr. 20-freaking refills of rootbeer was toying with me for a buck. lol Fortunately I had a 70-something guy come in 3 times a week, sit only in my section, and leave me $20 everytime. So it all balanced out. But some customers were just whacked out. HAHA
    As far as paying the servers more, when minimum wage went up in Ohio (and server wages went to 3-something), the result was the firing of busboys. The servers then had the work of cleaning the tables added to their duties. If you paid them minimum wage 1. Who knows what other work they would add? and 2. There'd probably be fewer servers because the restaurant couldn't afford them. Both of which would take away from the dining experience. Service would be abysmal. Also, who the hell would wait tables only to end up making minimum wage? Who would work for $2-3/hr with no tips? I liked the competitiveness of waitressing. I loved when we counted tips at the end of the night and seeing that I made more than the grouchy sucky servers. I prided myself on great service and liked the tips I had to show for it. That's the free market. You market yourself and see what you get. I was a good marketer.

  34. #270
    I taught my daughters very early in life that there are many ways to gauge a person's character, one of which is how they treat/view servers at a restaurant. Those who reckon everything by the letter of the law -- and rights, duties and forced obligations only, do indeed have the right to be $#@!s in a free society. Even obnoxious $#@!s. There's nothing special about them, but that is their right, and I wouldn't do anything to change that.

    For server staff in a "tipping culture", like ours, restaurants are privately controlled sandboxes as far as free markets go (and I don't mean places like Starbucks or a doughnut shop, where bandwagon morons take Sharpies and dress up plastic cups borrowed from homeless people to put on their counter, and join in on the tipping bandwagon, as they try to guilt people into tipping for just taking an order).

    Servers in restaurants can't refuse service to the dreaded known non-tippers (on that basis alone), who, like our Reservoir Dog, Mr. Pink, believes that the cost of the server is (or should be) already fully included in the price of the food and drinks. So what. Big deal, life's full of $#@!s. And, like LBennet76 said, that can be more than compensated for by great service to other customers who do tip. That's not to the credit of the cheapskate, or the restaurant, but it is the reality.

    In a truly free market, a server could choose to simply not wait on a table of known non-tippers, or those who dangle a single dollar bill as if it was some kind of juicy plum. They really could just go screw themselves, as the non-tipper would deserve whatever sub-standard service or non-service they get -- assuming they're locals, or not foreigners, and do understand the customs, whether or not they agree with them. But again, it's not a free market. It's the restaurant's private market place, and the restaurant (rightly) holds a monopoly on who can serve on its behalf. And their concern is not with tips, but the sale of food and drinks - and those prices, unlike gratuity, are more than set, agreed to, and enforced.

    The irony here: If everyone was a Mr. Pink, and tipping stopped altogether - restaurants would not be able to attract decent help without being forced to make up the difference in the prices - itemized as mandatory gratuities - thus forcing ALL customers, including the Mr. Pinks of the world, into being "tippers". Just like what happens in Beijing, Shanghai and other places that have a majority of non-tippers as customers. The price simply goes up for everyone.

    The downside yin to that yang: erstwhile big tippers would pay less, while erstwhile cheapskates would be forced to pay more. Sounds good to some on paper, but that also means that good servers might not earn $15 an hour either, as few customers would tip more, knowing in advance that a gratuity was mandatory. In addition, the restaurant would now control more of what the servers made, with no rule that says that a 15% gratuity automatically goes to the server. So in the end it's a wash, which is partly why I have no normative "ought" position on the subject.

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