Given the new proliferation of vests should one learn to shoot for the pelvic region?

[phill4paul]

Just an idea I was mulling. There's allot of vests out there these days, whether cop, Fed or civilian. All in variable degrees of efficiency.

Perhaps a new training method should be added to the roster. I term it T.D.S. "The Dick Shot..'

Chest shots are made for one reason. All that life affirming $#@! lies there. It is the spot to hit to put down the threat as quickly as possible. But, tactical ballistics vests are selling off the shelves. A double or triple tap to the chest may only cause major pain to a vested adversary.

Where as there is some serious 'threat stoppin'' $#@! going on in the hinter regions. You've got femoral arteries and well, a dudes dick. Nothing like taking the fight out of someone than them experiencing dick bleed.

Just a random thought.

[TheTexan]

You may be on to something .

[pcosmar]

Hone your skill to hit what you shoot.

Hand Foot or head..

Though 458 socom will make a vest moot.

[phill4paul]

Hone your skill to hit what you shoot.

Hand Foot or head..

Though 458 socom will make a vest moot.

C'mon, Pete. Not all of us are Jessie James. We shoot for mass regions. Moving targets more so. I'd love to be able to light a strike match held by on a ballerina doing a pirouette on the back of a galloping horse. And a 458 Socom isn't E.D.C. for most of us. Yet.

[pcosmar]

C'mon, Pete. Not all of us are Jessie James. We shoot for mass regions. Moving targets more so. I'd love to be able to light a strike match held by on a ballerina doing a pirouette on the back of a galloping horse. And a 458 Socom isn't E.D.C. for most of us. Yet.

Punkin balls then..

That Black Powder Sharps on the wall..

Hit that bastard with !500/2000 Foot/Pounds and it won't matter if you penetrate him. You will pulverize him.

[dannno]

[pcosmar]

I expect to see Marketed Groin Guards behind this thread.

[phill4paul]

Punkin balls then..

That Black Powder Sharps on the wall..

Hit that bastard with !500/2000 Foot/Pounds and it won't matter if you penetrate him. You will pulverize him.

As I mentioned. E.D.C.

[pcosmar]

As I mentioned. E.D.C.

I only concealed when I was nefarious.

Military Training and most private teach Center Mass..
and the Vests are pushed,,even to me. (Prohibited)

If I ever have a gun again..I will not be shooting at vests.

[oyarde]

I shoot at hips on anything with suspected armor.

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

I just call 911.

[ClaytonB]

Always aim center-of-mass. In a real home-defense situation, you are almost certainly going to be startled / taken by surprise. Your adrenaline is going to be at 11 on a scale of 1-10, you will be unable to control your breathing, and your hands will be shaking. Source: me (don't ask). Maybe this doesn't apply if you're a combat-vet and you've been through the routine so many times that you're numb to it. But for the other 99.99% of us, center-of-mass is key. Train with both eyes open. If you've been doing it your whole life with one eye, that's fine, you're never going to break that habit for range-shooting, but it's still good to spend a little time drilling aiming with both eyes open because that's how it's going down when SHTF, whether you like it or not:

[phill4paul]

Always aim center-of-mass. In a real home-defense situation, you are almost certainly going to be startled / taken by surprise. Your adrenaline is going to be at 11 on a scale of 1-10, you will be unable to control your breathing, and your hands will be shaking. Source: me (don't ask). Maybe this doesn't apply if you're a combat-vet and you've been through the routine so many times that you're numb to it. But for the other 99.99% of us, center-of-mass is key. Train with both eyes open. If you've been doing it your whole life with one eye, that's fine, you're never going to break that habit for range-shooting, but it's still good to spend a little time drilling aiming with both eyes open because that's how it's going down when SHTF, whether you like it or not:

All good advise. I've even adapted from one eyed shooting growing up to two eye shooting today. And highly recommend. I did not find it especially hard and it really opened up the periphery. I was specifically speaking to training low in instances that you know someone is armored. Encounters with cops today you are looking at a 100% chance of body armor. Most security guards if they are armed security. And most of the participants at 2A musters. I've seen many Anti-fa, Black Nation members wearing it. So I'm not talking about total transformation to 'the dick shot.' I'm merely suggesting it as an extra routine.

[ClaytonB]

All good advise. I've even adapted from one eyed shooting growing up to two eye shooting today. And highly recommend. I did not find it especially hard and it really opened up the periphery. I was specifically speaking to training low in instances that you know someone is armored. Encounters with cops today you are looking at a 100% chance of body armor. Most security guards if they are armed security. And most of the participants at 2A musters. I've seen many Anti-fa, Black Nation members wearing it. So I'm not talking about total transformation to 'the dick shot.' I'm merely suggesting it as an extra routine.

Sure, I understand. Tactical awareness (aka "common sense") is always required. But you're never wrong to put shots on center-of-mass while you figure out what is really going on. If it's dark, you may not be able make out exactly what they're wearing, anyway. And even with body armor, a shot from a .45 or equivalent isn't just a bee-sting. If they don't go down on the first one or two shots, you should already be walking up the sternum.

If you were caught in some kind of standoff situation with body-armored assailants (as you note, police are not the only ones up-armored nowadays), you don't want to be doing that with a handgun if you can help it. If the shotgun is in the closet, maybe lay down a little suppression fire with your handgun before snatching the shotgun. You're going to want something that packs as much punch as possible because if you hit armor, you still want to deliver as much trauma as possible, maybe even knock the wind out of them. It's just a bad situation to be in and I hope I never have to deal with something like that.

[jmdrake]

All good advise. I've even adapted from one eyed shooting growing up to two eye shooting today. And highly recommend. I did not find it especially hard and it really opened up the periphery. I was specifically speaking to training low in instances that you know someone is armored. Encounters with cops today you are looking at a 100% chance of body armor. Most security guards if they are armed security. And most of the participants at 2A musters. I've seen many Anti-fa, Black Nation members wearing it. So I'm not talking about total transformation to 'the dick shot.' I'm merely suggesting it as an extra routine.

I recall @CCTelander posting a thread about an open sourced armor piercing bullet.

[CCTelander]

I recall @CCTelander posting a thread about an open sourced armor piercing bullet.

That would be here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...d-Austin-Jones

I see you found and bumped it before I got to it. Thanks!

[phill4paul]

I recall @CCTelander posting a thread about an open sourced armor piercing bullet.

I do remember something along those lines. They hadn't come to market yet. Went back 10 pages but couldn't find it.

[pcosmar]

Both eyes is probably a good idea for most..

I have weird eyes..
I am right handed and left eyed..
My big brother says I do it wrong,, but I put groups on paper.
Technically wrong,, but it works for me.

[Pericles]

A number of factors come into play - your weapon type and ammunition you carry. The pelvic area has about 3 times the mass of the head, so greater probability of a hit. The hit tends to be debilitating, and if not underway almost immediately to a med facility, will cause bleed out.

[jmdrake]

A number of factors come into play - your weapon type and ammunition you carry. The pelvic area has about 3 times the mass of the head, so greater probability of a hit. The hit tends to be debilitating, and if not underway almost immediately to a med facility, will cause bleed out.

Interesting points. And I think @phill4paul for the thread. I recently saw an old episode of The Unit where Delta Force operators were going up against terrorists undercover as U.S. National Guard troops. One of operators said "go for the head and the groin." But what I also found interesting was that some arrows can pierce kevlar.

[Intoxiklown]

Just an idea I was mulling. There's allot of vests out there these days, whether cop, Fed or civilian. All in variable degrees of efficiency.

Perhaps a new training method should be added to the roster. I term it T.D.S. "The Dick Shot..'

Chest shots are made for one reason. All that life affirming $#@! lies there. It is the spot to hit to put down the threat as quickly as possible. But, tactical ballistics vests are selling off the shelves. A double or triple tap to the chest may only cause major pain to a vested adversary.

Where as there is some serious 'threat stoppin'' $#@! going on in the hinter regions. You've got femoral arteries and well, a dudes dick. Nothing like taking the fight out of someone than them experiencing dick bleed.

Just a random thought.

This was part of combat training when I was in the Army (fairly sure I have mentioned it here before, but would have been years ago). If the enemy is wearing body armor you shoot for the groin area (testicles, pelvic bone, femoral artery, bowels, hip joints, ect). Basically, anything you hit will at worst put them out of the fight and at best take three out of the fight with one dragging them to safety and another laying suppressive fire at you to prevent more rounds on them. Even if they're wearing a "dick plate" there are big creases where you can slip rounds through.

Of course, since my battle rifle is a Sig Sauer 716 Patrol (.308) I purchased half a case worth of old .30-.06 AP rounds and reloaded them onto .308 shell casings (completely legal). SO someone thinking they were the terminator trying to walk me down would have a really bad day. I say that because without a rifle I'm not going to fight anyone wearing body armor....I'm going to use my pistol to lay suppressive fire best I can and get the hell away.