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Thread: Many Amazon Warehouse Workers are on Food Stamps

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    Maybe what kahless is referring doesn't mean just raw Government influence like the Robber Barons? Is Amazon in fact so big that they don't need much from government other than to stay out of their way?

    Amazon might be considered historic from that financial resources and their huge presence on the net which is a different kind of power. I'm not sure if any other company is comparable for having this much of a presence without really having a brick and mortar storefront.
    Not exactly. I believe Amazon has become a single source in several sectors due to their tactics of selling below cost to eliminate competition. While having achieved that they are using government to institute a tax policy that is detrimental to some by providing ideologs the power in 9600 or so jurisdictions to misuse their political advocacy to censor or destroy those that oppose their ideology through audits. A policy they achieved by buying off politicians in multiple regions. Something not typically possible by small regional businesses.

    They are ultimately a cancer on this country. Amazon shills are fine with that since they are typically simpletons that think opposing it is opposing their finer points like Amazon Prime and their UI.



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  3. #122
    I distrust big business as much as big government.

    They usually go hand in hand with each other.

    Were it not for big government and it's equally big tax burden, the wages being paid by Amazon would support a family.

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    I distrust big business as much as big government.

    They usually go hand in hand with each other.

    Were it not for big government and it's equally big tax burden, the wages being paid by Amazon would support a family.
    IDK, if you eliminated taxes for the Amazon employees the employees are still basically slaves to Amazon if competition is eliminated and their internet tax regulations adopted by government stifle competition or are used as a political tool to stifle decent.

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by kahless View Post
    IDK, if you eliminated taxes for the Amazon employees the employees are still basically slaves to Amazon if competition is eliminated and their internet tax regulations adopted by government stifle competition or are used as a political tool to stifle decent.
    If welfare didn't exist then they would have to pay a decent wage to keep anyone.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  6. #125
    I don't know that Amazon would care if SNAP or subsidies went away or make up the difference in pay. More likely, it would be up to low wage workers to share housing with more room mates to get rent relief while living on Ramen.

    Or as others have suggested, just get more jobs and have no life while somehow getting enough rest to meet performance expectations of Amazon micromanagers.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    I don't know that Amazon would care if SNAP or subsidies went away or make up the difference in pay. More likely, it would be up to low wage workers to share housing with more room mates to get rent relief while living on Ramen.

    Or as others have suggested, just get more jobs and have no life while somehow getting enough rest to meet performance expectations of Amazon micromanagers.
    Yet they expect us to celebrate that and worship at the altar of Amazon to make that happen. $#@!ing slave master shills. The programming runs too deep with some people.
    Last edited by kahless; 04-22-2018 at 11:44 PM.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    I don't know that Amazon would care if SNAP or subsidies went away or make up the difference in pay. More likely, it would be up to low wage workers to share housing with more room mates to get rent relief while living on Ramen.

    Or as others have suggested, just get more jobs and have no life while somehow getting enough rest to meet performance expectations of Amazon micromanagers.
    If taxes, welfare and regulations were reduced and eliminated people would have other options.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Danke View Post
    we have a "private sector?" news to me.
    It's regulated AF, but not totally State controlled *yet*. They're working on it, tho.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_sector
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    So what?
    So all this griping about low wages is horse crap.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    If welfare didn't exist then they would have to pay a decent wage to keep anyone.
    Exactly. If the labor market was tight, wages would rise dramatically. This whole "people can't be bothered to go look for a better job!" and "Life isn't easy!" stuff is ridiculous. Thats what charity is for - not government.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by VIDEODROME View Post
    I don't know that Amazon would care if SNAP or subsidies went away or make up the difference in pay. More likely, it would be up to low wage workers to share housing with more room mates to get rent relief while living on Ramen.

    Or as others have suggested, just get more jobs and have no life while somehow getting enough rest to meet performance expectations of Amazon micromanagers.
    Oh, the condescension.

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    So let's stop the program!

    Cold turkey, work or starve.

    While we're at it free (tax dollar supported) housing and medical need to go too.
    What about the children? Some people don't have time to go look for better jobs. It's not easy for everybody. Why are you so mean???

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Labor is worth what a business is willing to pay for it and what a laborer is willing to work for it. Period.

    If the State intervenes in that transaction, all it does is distort the market. Like everything else.
    And is not giving SNAP and/or Section 8 to working people an intervention that distorts the labor market? There was a time--I remember it--when full time workers were not eligible for such benefits. There's yet another case of conservatives shooting conservatism in the foot. If people who don't work deserve it, how is it that people who do work don't deserve it?

    That's just a dog whistle argument for corporate welfare. If a person can work sixty hours a week and have to choose between being homeless and eating, or having shelter and starving, that person is not going to do that job. The only reason these people do these jobs is because the taxpayer is picking up the slack. Which means the taxpayer is enabling the CEO and the stockholders to pocket more. Yes, of course the CEO is going to do that, if the taxpayers are dumb enough to put up with it, and the stockholders won't complain either.

    There's nothing free market about it. People owing their souls to the company store, people working for a wage which doesn't allow them to meet their basic necessities for survival, does not happen in a free market. It does not happen. People do not work for the right to starve to death. Suggesting such a thing is 'free market' is laughable.

    The State is intervening in the labor transaction to Amazon's benefit. And Amazon is using political clout to ensure it continues. They are paying politicians with money that should be going to their employees. The labor market is distorted. If the State weren't making it possible for Amazon employees to survive, they would leave the company and find a way to survive.

    To say that libertarians should defend Amazon because it's an enterprise is laughable. When the corporations are in bed with the politicians, you have fascism, and fascism is no more free market than socialism. And the more libertarians babble about how enterprises are good no matter what--even to the point of winking at obvious distortions of markets and turning a blind eye to fascism--the less people looking for the answers the media obviously isn't giving them will look to libertarians for those answers.

    People would quit these jobs if the government weren't giving them enough food to survive on the starvation wages. What has that got to do with the free market? It's disguised as individual welfare, but it isn't. It's corporate welfare. Just as oil companies and drug companies wouldn't be able to operate profitably in certain areas of the world if the army and navy weren't providing them with free security. Corporate welfare is what it is, and we, of all people, should call it that.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 04-23-2018 at 08:12 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    The problem isn't the "program"- the problem is that we are so submerged in The Matrix and what we think is "reality", that we are clueless to what life ought to be. Working 8-12 hrs a day for The Man is NOT freedom, it's a government prison for all.

    Real freedom would be to have the right to travel, roam, own land, learn, exchange, set your own perimeters, be a real entrepreneur, w/o constant gov interference. Most people would do quite well- and all charity would be local.

    This 9-5 American Dream, that everyone accepts as "reality". is utter bull$#@!.
    Most individuals don't have the capital, or the knowledge, and don't want to take the risk associated with owning your own business. If our government wasn't so big workers would be able to work way less hours and have a much higher standard of living. Back in the 1950s a guy with a high school diploma could make enough to support a family and wife that stayed at home.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by A Son of Liberty View Post
    Are you $#@!ing kidding me? You must be a $#@!ing moron.

    Labor is worth what it is worth. If the State intervenes in the market and artificially props up the low end of the labor market, how the $#@! is that Amazon's problem?

    How is it Amazon's responsibility to pay MORE for labor than it values it?

    Jeezus Criminy what is going on here at RPF? Please don't tell me this is what is passing for libertarian around here any more.
    I agree. The real problem is our 4+ trillion a year government. And it's going to get a lot worse when we can no longer borrow and print.

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    So let's stop the program!

    Cold turkey, work or starve.

    While we're at it free (tax dollar supported) housing and medical need to go too.
    What about the children?
    The children are the whole point. Eugenics FTW!



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    And is not giving SNAP and/or Section 8 to working people an intervention that distorts the labor market

    The only reason these people do these jobs is because the taxpayer is picking up the slack.

    The State is intervening in the labor transaction to Amazon's benefit. And Amazon is using political clout to ensure it continues

    To say that libertarians should defend Amazon because it's an enterprise is laughable. When the corporations are in bed with the politicians, you have fascism,

    People would quit these jobs if the government weren't giving them enough food to survive on the starvation wages. What has that got to do with the free market?
    Your point is good, and very clearly true. It's undeniable, yes? Does anyone here wish to try to deny it?

    Societies are designed and planned. This is not done by a Central Committee meeting once a week in a high chamber, but it is done. It is planned by the whole community, organically, with the most intelligent and the most invested men steering developments most strongly, naturally, organically.

    Societies are large complexes of variables, and few indeed are the variables that stand unaffected by changes in any of the others. Inviting in 100 million third-world peasants to live with us, as we have, is a variable that has consequences. Massively promoting and subsidizing the buying of everything through mail-order (sorry, got to use the hip new term: "online") is another variable with consequences.

    At some point we, the people, are going to have to start caring about our communities again and consciously thinking and acting in regards to "what is going to make this a great place for my children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren to live and thrive?" Right now, our living places are fast becoming not only not great, but not even human. Inhuman. Our way of living is getting hosed.

    There's more to life than the free market. There's free-dom. People aren't just consumptive bots that happen to have low tensile strength. They don't like to be, anyway. They have souls. They like to have souls.

    TL;DR: Actions have consequences, and the actions of the Boomers have been disgustingly poor. Nihilistic. They've run our society into the ground (((with encouragement))) and now it's our job to look around, realize that, accept that truth, and start building it up again.
    Last edited by H_H; 04-23-2018 at 09:11 AM.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    Most individuals don't have the capital, or the knowledge, and don't want to take the risk associated with owning your own business. If our government wasn't so big workers would be able to work way less hours and have a much higher standard of living. Back in the 1950s a guy with a high school diploma could make enough to support a family and wife that stayed at home.
    For one thing, the entire world was decimated at that time. Japan and Europe were destroyed and that was when China was a closed economy. That opened the door for the US to make things at uncompetitive prices.

    More importantly, that family from the 50's can still do the same thing today. The kicker is they have to live like the 50's. Most houses built in the 50's were super small. Just look at any neighborhood with old houses. The average house from that time wouldn't be considered very nice compared to the average new house by today's standards. If you eliminated cell phone, internet, cable had one vehicle, and only had access to 1950s health care you could raise a family on a high school income if you don't live in an expensive area.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    For one thing, the entire world was decimated at that time. Japan and Europe were destroyed and that was when China was a closed economy. That opened the door for the US to make things at uncompetitive prices.

    More importantly, that family from the 50's can still do the same thing today. The kicker is they have to live like the 50's. Most houses built in the 50's were super small. Just look at any neighborhood with old houses. The average house from that time wouldn't be considered very nice compared to the average new house by today's standards. If you eliminated cell phone, internet, cable had one vehicle, and only had access to 1950s health care you could raise a family on a high school income if you don't live in an expensive area.
    So you don't think the rise in the size of government has affected living standards?


    Assuming a cheap area to live a guy with a high school diploma is probably $10 an hour * 40 = 1,600 a month - taxes about 1,200.

    $600 payment on a small house
    $200 for a used car
    $400 for food:

    That's $1200 right there and that's not even close to covering everything.
    Last edited by Madison320; 04-23-2018 at 11:49 AM.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    What about the children? Some people don't have time to go look for better jobs. It's not easy for everybody. Why are you so mean???
    Pleeeeeeese, what about those who can but can not find anything because a big corp, who never made a dime of profit, has grabbed the government by the balls and is dangling a huge revenue in front of their noses and these idiots are salivating. Whatever you want, they say.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    So you don't think the rise in the size of government has affected living standards?


    Assuming a cheap area to live a guy with a high school diploma is probably $10 an hour * 40 = 1,600 a month - taxes about 1,200.

    Government has negatively impacted living standards, but it has only slowed growth. The average person today lives multiples better than a person in the 1950s.

    The average high school grad makes 37k/yr today. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/hi...nd-quarter.htm

    The average income for all workers in the 1955 was 4k. We'll take 4k from 1955 and adjust for inflation and interestingly it comes out to be $37k in today's dollars. So yes. I think a high school grad can a raise a family just the same as someone in the 1950s.

    https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

  25. #142
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be 'cured' against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” -- C.S. Lewis, "God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)"

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post

    To say that libertarians should defend Amazon because it's an enterprise is laughable. When the corporations are in bed with the politicians, you have fascism, and fascism is no more free market than socialism. And the more libertarians babble about how enterprises are good no matter what--even to the point of winking at obvious distortions of markets and turning a blind eye to fascism--the less people looking for the answers the media obviously isn't giving them will look to libertarians for those answers.
    Insisting that evil Amazon should be forced into paying over a market wage means you're siding against the free market. We can agree that this isn't a free market, but moar force isn't the Libertarian solution.

    Let the workers starve. When they reach a point where they can't pay their bills any longer, their children are hungry at night, they will seek employment elsewhere, or they will seek a way to make themselves more valuable . Or they'll vote for people who promise to force Amazon to pay them more even though they're not worth more.

    Congratulations - you win.

    I can't stand the appeal to emotion nonsense. My life is 10 times harder than that of some guy working at an Amazon warehouse. If I can do it, so can he.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    If I can do it, so can he.
    You sound like an SJW. What if others are not willing to partake in the race to the bottom?



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be 'cured' against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” -- C.S. Lewis, "God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)"
    You just described the status quo.

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Government has negatively impacted living standards, but it has only slowed growth. The average person today lives multiples better than a person in the 1950s.

    The average high school grad makes 37k/yr today. https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/hi...nd-quarter.htm

    The average income for all workers in the 1955 was 4k. We'll take 4k from 1955 and adjust for inflation and interestingly it comes out to be $37k in today's dollars. So yes. I think a high school grad can a raise a family just the same as someone in the 1950s.

    https://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
    The official inflation numbers are manipulated.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  31. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Insisting that evil Amazon should be forced into paying over a market wage means you're siding against the free market. We can agree that this isn't a free market, but moar force isn't the Libertarian solution.

    Let the workers starve. When they reach a point where they can't pay their bills any longer, their children are hungry at night, they will seek employment elsewhere, or they will seek a way to make themselves more valuable . Or they'll vote for people who promise to force Amazon to pay them more even though they're not worth more.

    Congratulations - you win.

    I can't stand the appeal to emotion nonsense. My life is 10 times harder than that of some guy working at an Amazon warehouse. If I can do it, so can he.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to angelatc again.
    Some shocking un-libertarian shenannigans going on in this thread, Angie.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The official inflation numbers are manipulated.
    Things are not so bad. It is true we have not made progress in 50 years but we have not lowered the standard of living(according to the official numbers) either.

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Some shocking un-libertarian shenannigans going on in this thread, Angie.
    Our simplistic rules no longer apply. I could always say FREE MARKET, even if there wasn't one in existence for a very long time, and people would be nodding. Now they also insinuating my blind faith in the free market is the reason I am being $#@!ed!

    Last edited by timosman; 04-23-2018 at 12:46 PM.

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be 'cured' against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.” -- C.S. Lewis, "God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)"
    Amen! Bravo!

    Let's have some more relevant and truly thought-provoking quotes:

    " 'The theory of the Communists,' write Marx and Engels, 'may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.' But here, private property remains untouched. The productive apparatuses are to be fully automated, removing workers as much as possible from every stage of the production process: who, then, will own them? Who will own the commodities that these apparatuses produce? And if humanity is unburdened from the need to work and left to produce freely in the pursuit of its own self-expression, who will own that? Without anything to oppose bourgeois property, the result could be fully monstrous: a bloated, gluttonous ruling class engaged in limitless production, and recapturing any losses when the new peons come to spend their universal basic pittance. The propertied classes would fuse with an automaton that requires no human parts except for ownership to form a single apparatus; Utopia as a cyborg dictatorship.


    "This future has, in fact, already been described – it’s E.M. Forster’s 1909 science-fiction story The Machine Stops. Here, all of humanity lives in tiny cells within the body of the vast subterranean Machine. The Machine produces all their consumer goods, it provides them with anything they might want or need at a moment’s notice, it speaks to them, and allows them to speak to each other through video-messaging. People tend not to leave their cells; it’s not forbidden, but it’s certainly not encouraged. Full automation. Universal basic income. A networked society. In the end the Machine starts to slowly disintegrate. Billions die, and Forster, who had something of a reactionary streak, can only see this as a good thing. Who owns the Machine? The Machine does." – The Future Has Already Happened, Sam Kriss

    And a delicious word stew:

    "Ever since it became theoretically evident that our precious personal identities were just brand-tags for trading crumbs of labour-power on the libidino-economic junk circuit, the vestiges of authorial theatricality [have been wearing] thinner"
    Last edited by H_H; 04-23-2018 at 01:20 PM.

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