Trump Steel Tariffs Could Kill Up to 40,000 Auto Jobs, Nearly One-Third of Steel Workforce

[The Northbreather]

If you don't think buying things from China is a good use of your money, then boycott them. Just leave the rest of us who don't agree alone.

Yep. And endorsing the concept that the US state should become the moral authority for you as well as the world is irresponsible reckless and lazy.

The us has no moral responsibility to interfere on behalf of Chinese citizens wtf, they are not infringing on the rights of us citizens, taxes do however.

[Swordsmyth]

Wow. So this is just economic illiteracy. It’s no wonder you can’t understand Ron Paul’s message here. You should really try to understand things before commenting on them.

The "free" trade worshipers are the ones who are economically illiterate, consumption without production leads to bankruptcy and enslavement.

I mean, you’re on a Ron Paul forum... do you think there’s any chance that he’s right on this?

On this he is wrong, on almost everything else he is right.

[The Northbreather]

Dear nanny, please protect our hypothetical obsolete jobs by making the world safe and sh1t more expensive.

Your greatest admirers,
The Peons

[kahless]

@TheTexan couldn't have said it any better.

It is like how much more obvious can I be about my beliefs but despite that he asked again about America First and MAGA.

Since no one is debating the value of free trade within the borders of the US or outside the borders of the US when it is mutually beneficial, I believe some here obviously do not have the best interests of US citizens in mind.

[CaptUSA]

The "free" trade worshipers are the ones who are economically illiterate, consumption without production leads to bankruptcy and enslavement.



On this he is wrong, on almost everything else he is right.

This is a key point of the liberty message. I’m sorry you don’t get it. It is not government’s role to “level any playing fields”. It is not the role of our government to make sure other countries don’t impoverish their subjects. It’s not government’s role to ensure US businesses have a market in other countries to sell their goods.

The role of government is to protect liberty. Not violate it. You progressives always want to give government more power as long as they promise to give you things. You should read more and type less. Maybe you’d learn something. Positive rights don’t exist. By creating them by government edict, you always violate someone’s negative rights.

[Zippyjuan]

The "free" trade worshipers are the ones who are economically illiterate, consumption without production leads to bankruptcy and enslavement.



On this he is wrong, on almost everything else he is right.

But we do have production. True we don't produce every single last item we need or want. But on the individual scale it is impossible for you do do that as well. So the individuals started to trade. Those more efficient at producing one thing traded that with somebody more efficient at producing something else and both were better off.

[kahless]

Dear nanny, please protect our hypothetical obsolete jobs by making the world safe and sh1t more expensive.

Your greatest admirers,
The Peons

^As I predicted a couple posts back. When their anti-Americanism is exposed on RPF they always make some sort of leap to US foreign military intervention on whatever the topic is now matter how irrelevant to the discussion.

[CaptUSA]

https://www.cato.org/blog/reciprocal...ampaign=buffer

Might this help?

[fcreature]

Your choice of doing the bidding for the Chinese Communist party to the point of putting American companies out of business while thousands of Americans lose their jobs is not only immoral it is repugnant and treasonous.

Your choice of doing the bidding for the Chinese Communist party so they can continue their horrible human rights record, work people like slaves and destroy the environment so they can succeed at harming American businesses and jobs is immoral and repugnant.

You can play the moral high ground all you want. It won't win you any arguments. I'm going to assume you've never purchased any good produced in China, less you be a hypocrite who is supportive of the Chinese Communist party.

Go ahead. Keep trying to convince me that taxing every single American is American first and MAGA.

Keep ignoring the economic reality that tariffs destroy vastly far more jobs than they create or save.

Here in the real world we know that taxes destroy wealth. We understand that tariffs are a direct tax on all American consumers. We can look at the results of past tariffs and see their impact on the economy - a loss of jobs that far surpasses those they "save". And disincentiving industry to reinvest, improve, and find ways to compete on their own merit.

We also know that manufacturing is the largest sector of the US economy and has been growing nearly every year over the last decade. We can see that our production is at near all-time highs.

But you've got your alternative facts... what am I going to do to convince you otherwise?

I see we are at the typical RPF grasping at straws part of the thread. When no other point can be made just accuse the person of supporting spending another trillion in the Middle East which no one here ever advocates.

So pointing out your flawed logic is grasping at straws now? Well, from my side it simply looks like you have no response. Why can't you just answer the question? Nice job quoting that and conveniently forgetting this little nugget I also posted:

Well, I hope you are at least consistent in your belief. Of course this would mean that you are for nation building, preemptive war, the welfare state, higher taxes... pretty much everything we're supposedly against around here.

As you can see, there are countless examples that can be used aside from rebuilding the Middle East. Pick whichever you like.

I'll repeat (and you'll ignore...). Less than 4% of steel we import is Chinese. If you are so concerned about the Chinese Communist party and the welfare of the Chinese citizens and our contribution towards that due to our minimal steel imports, what about the rest of the atrocities in the world? Where does it end?

You are literally advocating that we police the world. This is what you are proposing.

It is not a good deal if it is a national security issue due to reliance on ones enemy ...

Woah! Who is the one grasping at straws now? This is a national security issue? Is that a serious argument you are making? Military consumption of steel/aluminum accounts for a whopping 3% of our current domestic production... pre-tariff.

... that comes with the loss of your manufacturing, massive job losses and growing the welfare state as a result.

And we've already established that you are just flat out wrong on all 3 accounts above. Our manufacturing is as strong as ever, tariffs lead to more job loss than job creation, and taxes destroy wealth leading to a growth in the welfare state.

[The Northbreather]

This is a key point of the liberty message. I’m sorry you don’t get it. It is not government’s role to “level any playing fields”. It is not the role of our government to make sure other countries don’t impoverish their subjects. It’s not government’s role to ensure US businesses have a market in other countries to sell their goods.

The role of government is to protect liberty. Not violate it. You progressives always want to give government more power as long as they promise to give you things. You should read more and type less. Maybe you’d learn something. Positive rights don’t exist. By creating them by government edict, you always violate someone’s negative rights.

This is correct.

Faith in govt meddling over individual liberty is why we’re fooked.

[Swordsmyth]

This is a key point of the liberty message. I’m sorry you don’t get it. It is not government’s role to “level any playing fields”. It is not the role of our government to make sure other countries don’t impoverish their subjects. It’s not government’s role to ensure US businesses have a market in other countries to sell their goods.

The role of government is to protect liberty. Not violate it. You progressives always want to give government more power as long as they promise to give you things. You should read more and type less. Maybe you’d learn something. Positive rights don’t exist. By creating them by government edict, you always violate someone’s negative rights.

Part of the role of government is to protect the citizens from foreign enemies, foreign governments deliberately seek to destroy what some Americans have built through unethical means and you say we should look the other way because it benefits you.

[CaptUSA]

But we do have production. True we don't produce every single last item we need or want. But on the individual scale it is impossible for you do do that as well. So the individuals started to trade. Those more efficient at producing one thing traded that with somebody more efficient at producing something else and both were better off.

Hmmm. Could that be why wealth is concentrated in the cities even though they have very few resources? Could it be that each trade makes both parties a little more wealthy? Is it just a coincidence that most major cities are located at a trade port or rail hub? Man, it’s almost like magic or something. I guess we don’t really need central planning after all.

[Swordsmyth]

But we do have production. True we don't produce every single last item we need or want. But on the individual scale it is impossible for you do do that as well. So the individuals started to trade. Those more efficient at producing one thing traded that with somebody more efficient at producing something else and both were better off.

The longer the trade war goes on without us defending ourselves the closer we get to producing nothing.

[CaptUSA]

Part of the role of government is to protect the citizens from foreign enemies, foreign governments deliberately seek to destroy what some Americans have built through unethical means and you say we should look the other way because it benefits you.

So, they are harming us by making our purchases less expensive. Got it. Those damned bastards!

[kahless]

It is not the role of our government to make sure other countries don’t impoverish their subjects.

It is our governments role to ensure other countries do not impoverish us.

[CaptUSA]

It is our governments role to ensure other countries do not impoverish us.

Ugh. They are making us more wealthy!!!

But even if they weren’t and somehow we were losing wealth on the trades (ahem, you know we wouldn’t make the trade then, right?), it still wouldn’t be the role of government to intervene in the deal unless they were forcibly taking our wealth without our consent.

Meh, progressives... what are ya gonna do? They’ll never get it.

[Swordsmyth]

So, they are harming us by making our purchases less expensive. Got it. Those damned bastards!

They are harming us exactly the same way government harms people by giving out welfare, if we don't do something all of America will be one giant slum deprived of the will or the capacity to create wealth and dependent on government for their needs, we will then be required to jump through any hoops demanded of us to keep getting our needs supplied, welcome to the plantation.

[Krugminator2]

It must just be a miracle Hong Kong and Switzerland are so wealthy. They rank at the top of free trade and they don't produce or manufacture hardly any of their own stuff.

Someone should tell their governments to protect the workers. Poverty is right around the corner.

[fcreature]

The "free" trade worshipers are the ones who are economically illiterate, consumption without production leads to bankruptcy and enslavement.

If you are so economically literate, why do you keep posting factually incorrect statements about our economy? Specifically in regard to our manufacturing and production?

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OUTMS
http://www.macrotrends.net/2583/indu...storical-chart

United States industrial production, measured in real output, is at (or above) all time highs.

[Krugminator2]

Ugh. They are making us more wealthy!!!

But even if they weren’t and somehow we were losing wealth on the trades (ahem, you know we wouldn’t make the trade then, right?), it still wouldn’t be the role of government to intervene in the deal unless they were forcibly taking our wealth without our consent.

Meh, progressives... what are ya gonna do? They’ll never get it.

Something that seems to get lost is the United States doesn't trade much with China. United States citizens do. Just from a moral perspective, what right does the government have to a tell private businesses that they can't buy soccer balls or tennis shoes made by Chinese workers?

[CaptUSA]

They are harming us exactly the same way government harms people by giving out welfare, if we don't do something all of America will be one giant slum deprived of the will or the capacity to create wealth and dependent on government for their needs, we will then be required to jump through any hoops demanded of us to keep getting our needs supplied, welcome to the plantation.

You do realize that our increased wealth is applied in other industries, right? It’s a common misconception leveled by Marxists who only look at one industry at a time when making their pleas for more government. Every penny we save in cheaper steel is a penny used for some other purpose. Those other purposes matter, too. Production is enhanced by trade; not harmed. There’s no way around it.

[Swordsmyth]

It must just be a miracle Hong Kong and Switzerland are so wealthy. They rank at the top of free trade and they don't produce or manufacture hardly any of their own stuff.

Someone should tell their governments to protect the workers. Poverty is right around the corner.

Tiny countries with low populations can make almost their entire living off of trade services but there are only so many jobs in that industry and those that service them, a large nation like America needs other industries.

Also Hong Kong and Switzerland are vulnerable to their enemies because they can't supply their own needs, they must submit to tyrants (China or the EU) to a sufficient degree to keep them appeased, as time goes by it will take more and more to appease their enemies until they are no longer free at all.

[Swordsmyth]

You do realize that our increased wealth is applied in other industries, right? It’s a common misconception leveled by Marxists who only look at one industry at a time when making their pleas for more government. Every penny we save in cheaper steel is a penny used for some other purpose. Those other purposes matter, too. Production is enhanced by trade; not harmed. There’s no way around it.

At first perhaps but those other industries are being targeted by those who are engaging in trade war against us, if we don't put a stop to it we will eventually have no industries to benefit from cheap imports.

[Zippyjuan]

Tiny countries with low populations can make almost their entire living off of trade services but there are only so many jobs in that industry and those that service them, a large nation like America needs other industries.

Also Hong Kong and Switzerland are vulnerable to their enemies because they can't supply their own needs, they must submit to tyrants (China or the EU) to a sufficient degree to keep them appeased, as time goes by it will take more and more to appease their enemies until they are no longer free at all.

We need the government to deny our freedoms (to trade with whomever we want) so that we can be freer!

[Swordsmyth]

If you are so economically literate, why do you keep posting factually incorrect statements about our economy? Specifically in regard to our manufacturing and production?

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OUTMS
http://www.macrotrends.net/2583/indu...storical-chart

United States industrial production, measured in real output, is at (or above) all time highs.

Manipulated numbers.

[Zippyjuan]

China is blocking our exports! We need tariffs to protect us!



That shows percent change. Here are actual figures:

[fcreature]

Manipulated numbers.

So should we go by your feelings instead?

Wow. So this is what things have come to around here. Sad!

[Swordsmyth]

So should we go by your feelings instead?

Wow. So this is what things have come to around here. Sad!

No we can go by the loss of our industries instead of numbers put out by the same people who have been destroying them.

I suppose you will next insist that we accept the government's numbers on inflation and unemployment?

[Zippyjuan]

Manipulated numbers.

Do you have the "real numbers"? Can you share?

[kahless]

Keep ignoring the economic reality that tariffs destroy vastly far more jobs than they create or save.

Here in the real world we know that taxes destroy wealth. We understand that tariffs are a direct tax on all American consumers. We can look at the results of past tariffs and see their impact on the economy - a loss of jobs that far surpasses those they "save". And disincentiving industry to reinvest, improve, and find ways to compete on their own merit.

We also know that manufacturing is the largest sector of the US economy and has been growing nearly every year over the last decade. We can see that our production is at near all-time highs.

But you've got your alternative facts... what am I going to do to convince you otherwise?

What country have you been living in these last 40 years, it certainly is not the US if you fail to recognize the loss of manufacturing and jobs to overseas.

So pointing out your flawed logic is grasping at straws now? Well, from my side it simply looks like you have no response. Why can't you just answer the question? Nice job quoting that and conveniently forgetting this little nugget I also posted: As you can see, there are countless examples that can be used aside from rebuilding the Middle East. Pick whichever you like.

You made the leap from trade to some how saying I support spending another trillion dollars foreign intervention in the Middle East which is ridiculous.

I'll repeat (and you'll ignore...). Less than 4% of steel we import is Chinese. If you are so concerned about the Chinese Communist party and the welfare of the Chinese citizens and our contribution towards that due to our minimal steel imports, what about the rest of the atrocities in the world? Where does it end?

You are literally advocating that we police the world. This is what you are proposing.

Never advocated that. More on that below.

And we've already established that you are just flat out wrong on all 3 accounts above. Our manufacturing is as strong as ever, tariffs lead to more job loss than job creation, and taxes destroy wealth leading to a growth in the welfare state.

The only thing that has been established here is that you are a hard core globalist on trade at the expense of America. You do not give a damn about growing the welfare state in the US as a result of globalist trade policies that you support.

The government's purpose is to ensure strategic free trade that is designed to be advantageous to America first and foremost, as a result of us having the largest and most lucrative consumer market. Trade policy should be used to advance America’s national and economic security priorities NOT work against it. This can be done by making access to U.S. markets contingent on foreigners playing by the rules in ALL sectors whether agriculture or high tech. If they don’t cooperate, they should pay a tariff in the best interests of American companies and American workers first.

Some countries are not going to like playing by the rules. Too bad, what alternative will they have? If they retaliate it will hurt them far more than us not being able to sell their cheap goods and services in our market.