Rifle Scope

[GunnyFreedom]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-d...le-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

[jllundqu]

I like my Nikon scope a great deal... Granted I'm new to bolt action rifles and am still learning the skill of distance shooting, my Nikon scope gets it done. It's a Nikon Prostaff. You can get whatever reticle you want and add knobs, etc. Simple but HIGHLY effective glass from folks that know how to make glass.

[phill4paul]

I can't say much about higher end scopes, but....

$#@!ing congratulations on the LMT308MWS!!!

[GunnyFreedom]

I can't say much about higher end scopes, but....

$#@!ing congratulations on the LMT308MWS!!!

I wanted the 20" barrel so bad, more than once when I had the money I was determined to wait until I could score a deal on the 20" barrel. So I go and start researching. A lot of people who bought the LMT actually bought BOTH the 16 AND the 20, and they cannot tell any difference between the 16" and the 20" barrel even at range, except that it makes the front of the rifle heavier. So I said to hell with it and went on and got the 16". Since it's not making a perceptible difference at 800yd, no sense in spending $600 more for the 20". As it was I did get the stainless barrel upgrade that will keep me functioning at 1000 rounds downrange an hour. Not that I would EVER put so much lead through it in such a short time, but knowing it's possible makes me feel better lol

Now I need to shop for a CQB upper for my Colt 5.56 so I've got a shawty for clearing tight quarters.

I've wanted this damn rifle for something close to a decade, whenever it first came out I knew about it before it went to market and already wanted the thing lol. I can't wait for the thing to arrive so I can put a pic in the Ron Paul Rifles thread,

This one is gonna get a camo duracoat paint job. I wanted the dark earth furniture as a base, but when I spend $800 less than the going rate I can't really bitch that it's black on black, especially if I was going to duracoat it anyway.

[phill4paul]

I've known you have been wanting one since forever.

So...can I ask what you got it for?

[GunnyFreedom]

I like my Nikon scope a great deal... Granted I'm new to bolt action rifles and am still learning the skill of distance shooting, my Nikon scope gets it done. It's a Nikon Prostaff. You can get whatever reticle you want and add knobs, etc. Simple but HIGHLY effective glass from folks that know how to make glass.

I was looking at Nikon glass. Nikon is certainly a premium manufacturer with a reputation for quality. The LMT of course is so expensive because it's a semiautomatic .308 platform with the precision of a bolt action rifle. This thing is a sub MOA gun if you know how to drive it. Machine rest will probably give you 3" at 500 yds or thereabouts. Add in a moderately skilled human and that's probably 5" at 500yd, which is still spectacular for a semiautomatic .308 AR

[GunnyFreedom]

I've known you have been wanting one since forever.

So...can I ask what you got it for?

Well, I was budgeting $2100 - $2200 based on the pricing about 2-3 months ago, and everywhere I look right now they are going for $3000 to $3400. I'm guessing they cranked the price up to meet demand post-Orlando.

The one I found had the factory stainless barrel upgrade, and I was the only bidder on the auction. I got it for $2700, which while that is $500-$600 more than budget, I had budgeted for the chromelined barrel not the stainless.

So I figured 2100-2200 plus the $400 for the stainless barrel (an upgrade that I really liked anyway) and that puts the budget at $2500 to $2600, so I didn't think $2700 was that bad a deal, considering they are selling for over 3k with the chrome lined barrel.

tl;dr I paid $2700 on auction at gunbroker.com for the rifle which had a "buy it now" price of $3600. I was the only bidder, so I got the entry price.

[phill4paul]

Well, I was budgeting $2100 - $2200 based on the pricing about 2-3 months ago, and everywhere I look right now they are going for $3000 to $3400. I'm guessing they cranked the price up to meet demand post-Orlando.

The one I found had the factory stainless barrel upgrade, and I was the only bidder on the auction. I got it for $2700, which while that is $500-$600 more than budget, I had budgeted for the chromelined barrel not the stainless.

So I figured 2100-2200 plus the $400 for the stainless barrel (an upgrade that I really liked anyway) and that puts the budget at $2500 to $2600, so I didn't think $2700 was that bad a deal, considering they are selling for over 3k with the chrome lined barrel.

tl;dr I paid $2700 on auction at gunbroker.com for the rifle which had a "buy it now" price of $3600. I was the only bidder, so I got the entry price.

Again, congratulations. I know you had to do some serious cost cutting and savings to meet your goal. And from what I have seen it is a good and fair find. Let us know what you name her.

[GunnyFreedom]

Again, congratulations. I know you had to do some serious cost cutting and savings to meet your goal. And from what I have seen it is a good and fair find. Let us know what you name her.

Thanks, I really do appreciate it. I know there are a couple of people around here with an armory sufficient to arm a platoon. that can talk to this subject.

[GunnyFreedom]

I forgot that you can do this now...
@Pericles

[Kotin]

Congrats on the sweet acquisition!

I am also sort of new to optics and would take any tips people have.. I am mostly looking for mid grade optics for my mini 14

[GunnyFreedom]

Congrats on the sweet acquisition!

I am also sort of new to optics and would take any tips people have.. I am mostly looking for mid grade optics for my mini 14

Thanks! What do you want to do with the Mini14? I know for my 5.56 AR I'm going to try and find a nice used EOTech holographic sight so I don't have to spend so much, but then now that I have a ranger I'll mostly use the Colt for stuff under 100 yards.

[GunnyFreedom]

I know we've got people hanging around who know rifle optics.

[Dr.3D]

Been thinking about getting this one for my Remington 700 Ultimate Muzzleloader.

https://www.amazon.com/NightForce-Pr...=sr_1_1&sr=8-1

Got this on it right now and my son has been taking deer at over 200 yards with it.
https://www.amazon.com/Nikon-INLINE-...leloader+scope

I'm no expert, but what I've been told is that one should spend about the same amount for their glass as they did for the rifle.

[Dr.3D]

By the way.... I found this video to be very informative.



Zeroed all my scopes this way and saved myself a lot of time.

Do they teach this technique in the military?

Edited to mention, that scope you are looking at, has free shipping on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/ATN-Riflescop...ht+ii+hd+5-20x

[GunnyFreedom]

By the way.... I found this video to be very informative.



Zeroed all my scopes this way and saved myself a lot of time.

Do they teach this technique in the military?

It's a good method, I have seen it before. It's basically the same method that the electronic scope in the OP uses.

I use inches minutes clicks. It is also a single-shot zero.

Print your shot at 100yd. measure windage deviation and elevation deviation from bullseye in inches.

One inch is 1 minute at 100yd. If scope is 0.5MOA adjustment, it's 2 clicks an inch, if scope is 0.25MOA adjustment it's 4 clicks an inch.

If I fire from a machine rest (which is basically what they are doing in the video) this is an easy single-shot zero.

Also, something the folks in the video did not account for is a barrel is going to flex minutely after a couple of shots, and your 'warm' zero will be in a different place from your 'cold' zero.

And no, they taught nothing like this in the Marines. We used a 36 yard zero range, and then finished our zero at 300 yards proper. Apparently the sights on a 20" M16 barrel cowitness the ballistic path of the M855 at 36yd and 300yd, so we short zero at 36 and final zero at 300. Just the normal zero. 5 round group, dial it in, 5 round group dial it in, repeat at nauseum.

I learned inches minutes clicks from Appleseed. WAY more efficient than traditional methods. maybe not quite as efficient as yours, but I like to keep track of the math. If I'm keeping track of the math, then all I need is a spotter and I can guestimate an awful close a 1 shot zero at whatever range even in combat conditions.

[Dr.3D]

Thanks...

I've had a lot of fun at the range. People see what I'm doing and want to try it for themselves.

I fire one shot, zero the scope on that shot and then put one round through the bulls eye. I then put one round through each corner bulls eye on the target, just to demonstrate it is zeroed.

[GunnyFreedom]

Thanks...

I've had a lot of fun at the range. People see what I'm doing and want to try it for themselves.

I fire one shot, zero the scope on that shot and then put one round through the bulls eye. I then put one round through each corner bulls eye on the target, just to demonstrate it is zeroed.

One of the reasons I like actually doing the math, is say you and a buddy are under cover, rounds flying everywhere, you look over his shouldrer and say "hey, how far is that stop sign?"

Oh, hell I dunno 40 yards?

Okay I know a stop sign is about 30 inches across, and from my ballistic table I know at 40 yards I want to print 4MOA above the crosshair to give me a 300yd zero. I take the best shot I know how right dead center. I guestimate it's 4" right and 1" low. He guestimates 3.5" right and 0.5" low. So I bring the impact left 3 half-MOA clicks (or 7 quarter-MOA clicks) and up 9 half-MOA clicks (or 18 quarter-MOA clicks).

Now the round is printing a little under 5" above the crosshair at 100yd, which is what I want for a 300yd zero. If you have a MOA reticle you know 50-120 yards your impact will be just under +5 MOA at 200 yd your impact is around +3 MOA at 300 your crosshairs are dead on at 400 impact is around -3 MOA at 500yd impact is about -7 MOA at 600 yd impact is -11 MOA at 700 yd it's about -16 MOA at 800yd impact is about -21 MOA at 900 impact is about -28 MOA and at 1000yd impact is about -35 MOA.

With a decent 30 MOA reticle you can be dead on impact within an inch of aim at any point from 20yd to 900yd, you just have to keep a range card.

I use a smartphone app, it calculates coriolis effect also. If I am pointing due north at my latitude, coriolis effect carries my shot 2 inches right at 500 yd or 12.4 inches right at 1000 yd.

If I didn't force myself into the habit of doing all the math, then I would not know how to account for all of this. Mind you I have a smartphone app to do the real processing...

Note zero winds. Windage adjustment is for spin drift and coriolis effect assuming I am facing dead north.



If I am facing dead south (as opposed to north, for which this table was made), and aiming 900 yards away, I need to hold the reticle 1MOA to the right because coriolis will bring the round back left. So I move the crosshair 1MOA right of the target or I miss the target by 9 inches.

[GunnyFreedom]

"what if your electronics go down?" Always carry physical range cards with you for a variety of situations. You can always thumb through laminated 3.5 note cards with tables written on them and come up with the same answers pretty fast. Make range cards for your round and use them as needed. You will want to make new range cards for new rounds as the ballistics will be different for different rounds.

[Cowlesy]

While I recognize you asked for expert opinions, I won't let that stop me from offering one (hey you know what they say about opinions!)

I have a Leopold Mark IV, a Nikon Monarch, Trijicon gear....but for a purely wonderful piece of glass (there must be a way to mount one to a picatinny rail), consider looking at Swarovski. My first experience with Swarovski glass was using a pair of Swarovski binoculars, which, and I know it can be hard to believe, are absurdly more clear and detailed than any binoculars I'd ever used before. And they bring in more light somehow, so at dusk, you can see for an extra 10-20 minutes when you'd set down any other set of binoculars.

After that, I tried a Swarovski scope, and it's the same deal. They're just so clear it's hard to explain.

Now in terms of night-optics, having played a bit with those, the problem I have (and people here with more experience are probably better to chime in) is unless you're ready to plunk down SERIOUS (think $5k+ coinage) for truly professional grade gear, the more budget stuff (and even now we're still talking $1k-$3k) is hit or miss depending on conditions. Electronic night-gear and shooting out to the distance you want, at night....i'm not even sure where one would start that would be highly effective.

Man I'd love to plink with an LMT sometime. Congrats on the purchase!

[GunnyFreedom]

bumper crop

[Intoxiklown]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-d...le-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GunnyFreedom again.


I just to want say that I am not what one would call a jealous person. That said, I'm jealous....lol

Very nice weapon, brother. I wish I knew enough about optics to offer advice, but I am on record about my woeful knowledge concerning them. I am, however, reading with interest.

[youngbuck]

I've heard that those ATNs lack ruggedness.

You will definitely want a first focal plane scope for any sort of tactical/combat applications. Make sure it is MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL, no combination of the two that you may senselessly find on some scopes. I suggest a 50mm or 56mm objective lens. 12x magnification is enough to get you to 1000m, but higher magnification will allow you to better gauge mirage, bullet tracing, etc. You will also pay for higher magnification of the same quality. At high magnification, it is paramount to have high quality glass, otherwise you will simply be magnifying artifacts and distortions. I can provide more suggestions if you would like, but I hope this guides you in the right direction.

[CaptainAmerica]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-d...le-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

If your rifle is for self defense and combat, forget it. Scopes are useless. Get an m1a scout for close quarters to mid range(preferred), or fully loaded model for distance, with classic picatinny peep hole sights with lateral and vertical adjustment for wind and distance accuracy. Forget scopes...., red dot is garbage. Your rifle is only as good as your instinct.

[CaptainAmerica]

Alright, I'm having a hard time figuring out what I want, and when that happens it usually helps a lot to seek input from the community and tune my own preferences until I settle.

I just got a good deal on a LMT308MWS with a stainless barrel. This rifle is a 1000 yard shooter, but in order to take advantage of all that I need optics that can keep up with the rifle. Because this is a Ferarri of rifles, I'm pretty much decided that any scope under $500 is probably not going to keep up with the rifle.

Now, my plan was to go on and get a high quality no-power glass optic for between $500 to $800...probably somewhere around 5 to 20 mag, with (preferably) MOA reticle and adjustments; and then LATER save up for a low-light electronic scope that I can swap out for nighttime work.

Then I ran into this thing, $700 does both night and day; but it's electronic. Completely electronic, which yes gives me pause, reliability and all that, but I'm loving some of the other features like the ability to enter different ballistic tables for different rounds with different zeroes, and swap though those profiles when changing ammo.

This thing:

http://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-d...le-scope-5-20x

It seems to get mixed reviews. Most people love them, a small minority hate them, but most of the ones that hate them seem mollified when ATN swaps out their device for a new one.

Some of y'all have had gun money for longer than I have, and may have either experienced this crazy electronic scope, or have another idea of where I should go.

My primary consideration is that this thing does night vision; which I eventually want anyway. Maybe I can get a low tech glass optic later so I am prepared in case there is a zombie apocalypse and AA batteries are hard to come by...but thinking practically, this would give me both day and night out to 800-900 yards immediately for $700 and I can worry about a $500+ glass optic in another few months after I have installed a few more Google retail spaces for $3k a pop.

Any input on the linked scope, or any direction for a better direction to go in?

Other than grandpa's old .30-06 all my weapons are iron sights, so I do not have the direct experience with scopes that someone who shoots as much as I do normally would. However, it's kind of dumb to keep a 1000 yard .308 on irons, so optics are a must. No sense in paying an obscene amount of money for a 1000 yard shooter and then run sights on it that don't help past 500.

Anyone around with serious rifle optics expertise that can weigh in?

.308 is designed for hunting.

30-ought 6 is designed to have a trajectory that tumbles slightly down so that you can hit a target over a hill without having to fully see it...if you know what to do

[younglibertarian]

I like my Nikon scope a great deal... Granted I'm new to bolt action rifles and am still learning the skill of distance shooting, my Nikon scope gets it done. It's a Nikon Prostaff. You can get whatever reticle you want and add knobs, etc. Simple but HIGHLY effective glass from folks that know how to make glass.

I have the same scope on my remington 700, fantastic combo. However I think the OP is looking for a higher quality scope. Have you looked at Leopold?

[GunnyFreedom]

If your rifle is for self defense and combat, forget it. Scopes are useless. Get an m1a scout for close quarters to mid range(preferred), or fully loaded model for distance, with classic picatinny peep hole sights with lateral and vertical adjustment for wind and distance accuracy. Forget scopes...., red dot is garbage. Your rifle is only as good as your instinct.

I've already got all the close range stuff I want or need. I don't really think taking a thousand yard shooter and handicapping it down to 300-400 yards is a good idea. Quite aside from being a waste of 2 grand, what do I need with a fourth CQB weapon and still have zero long range capability?

[GunnyFreedom]

.308 is designed for hunting.

30-ought 6 is designed to have a trajectory that tumbles slightly down so that you can hit a target over a hill without having to fully see it...if you know what to do

Both the .30-06 and the .308 were designed for war. The .30-06 was designed for WW1 and the .308 was designed in the aftermath of WW2. As in, a bunch of engineers got together and said we need a new rifle to kill enemies with, and they designed this cartridges. Hunting wasn't even a part of the calculus for either cartridge. And the .30-06 has pretty much precisely the exact same ballistics as the .308 since the people who designed the .308 successfully attempted to make a round that performs identically to the .30-06 but in a shorter casing.

Since then, modern gunpowder technology has led to a small increase in .30-06 power and thus muzzle velocity, and therefore the round shoots flatter than the .308 unless you go 180grain or more.

And every bullet on earth has a ballistic trajectory.

[GunnyFreedom]

I've heard that those ATNs lack ruggedness.

You will definitely want a first focal plane scope for any sort of tactical/combat applications. Make sure it is MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL, no combination of the two that you may senselessly find on some scopes. I suggest a 50mm or 56mm objective lens. 12x magnification is enough to get you to 1000m, but higher magnification will allow you to better gauge mirage, bullet tracing, etc. You will also pay for higher magnification of the same quality. At high magnification, it is paramount to have high quality glass, otherwise you will simply be magnifying artifacts and distortions. I can provide more suggestions if you would like, but I hope this guides you in the right direction.

Thanks, yeah, the ruggedness was pretty much my primary concern. The main reason I was attracted to it was the low entry barrier for night vision, without needing a second scope for daytime.

I'm already familiar enough not to mix mils and moa, talk about a zeroing drop and windage nightmare! I'm thoroughly familiar with how MOA works, and all my ballistics calculators return MOA so I'm definitely looking MOA.

i also know the effect that a large objective lens has on light collection, and was thinking that 50mm or larger was my target range for glass, albeit that usually puts them into the expensive category.

I suppose when it comes to glass, beyond clarity one of the things I am looking for is the reticle to zoom too, so the MOA dots are accurate.

[TheTexan]

I've known you have been wanting one since forever.

So...can I ask what you got it for?

Target shooting I would presume