Time For Libertarians To Leave The GOP?

[Swordsmyth]

Absolutely, anyone who doesn't fall in line with the great and powerful Swordsmyth is obviously a commie, traitor and in league with the democrats.

I didn't choose his companions, he did.

The entire sham investigation has been illegal and treasonous all along and it has been known to be for quite some time, the participants are all green scum and Amash's pitiful attempt to justify the call for impeachment can't have sounded plausible even to him.

You can't change the facts just because you don't want him to be wrong.

[revgen]

And go where? The LP party is sham with Sarwark in charge. The Mises Caucus is trying to change that, but I don't think they're going to take over the party anytime soon.

[euphemia]

And go where? The LP party is sham with Sarwark in charge. The Mises Caucus is trying to change that, but I don't think they're going to take over the party anytime soon.

The Constitution Party, where they should have been all along.

[oyarde]

Just my opinion but the libertarian party has never been more irrelevant than it is now . It will also get its largest ever drop in votes this coming presidential election I think . I expect money and ballot access to start drying up in the future . So as far as the Op I do not even consider them significant any longer . The time for it has come and passed . its all bernie , biden & trump now .The Gop needs anything they can get and there will never be any liberty in the dem party so pick your poison . Libertarians have nobody to blame . It was a tough task and they made the least of it .

[Brian4Liberty]

And RINO/neocon/nevertrumpers hate Trump because........................................... ..

They don't; they fill his administration, shill for him on FOX, donate money to him.

There is this conspiracy hypothesis that Trump is the secret, 100% establishment backed shill. While willing to entertain that hypothesis, I see no evidence of that being true.

What I see is a candidate and POTUS that the leftist establishment media supported in the primary because they were throwing a bomb into the GOP primary. They wanted maximum destruction, and it worked better than they could have anticipated, the entire GOP field was decimated. Then, it was time to for them to smear Trump non-stop, and in their eyes, easily drive Hillary to victory. But the non-stop attacks had the opposite effect. They could not create the reality they wanted, no matter how hard they smeared and produced phony polls. Voters just got mad at the media, as the media revealed themselves as biased, deceptive, shameless propagandists.

For the neoconservatives, they fought Trump tooth and nail right from the start. Cruz was their last hope after Jeb went down hard. Then after the primary, they switched to neutral or the Hillary camp, Bill Kristol being a prime example.

After elected, Trump is sitting there with a few advisors, with no idea who to appoint. The establishment had many suggestions for him, and slowly took over. Trump, being naive and easily manipulated, ended up with neoconservatives, who are experts at infiltration and manipulation.

The establishment still hates him, but he has become a somewhat a useful idiot for the neoconservatives. But they do not like that Trump is not consistent or reliable. They can get him to say something one day, and he may say the opposite the next day. He may even over-ride them at crucial moments. Not what the establishment or neoconservatives like in a front man.

[Brian4Liberty]

There is a difference between "blind obedience" and joining forces with the likes of Pelosi and Waters and Schiff and Cortez and Omar and all the rest of the neo-bolsheviks in calling for impeachment because "I don't like that $#@!ing guy".

Some say it is best to stick to issues and principles, instead of getting personal and engaging in personality conflicts. It is a bit hard to identify the liberty issue or principal at play in joining with the left and calling for impeachment under the Russia collusion and Mueller Report circumstances. It seems more personal.

[enhanced_deficit]

Time For Libertarians To Leave The GOP?

No, it's time for neocons swamp / neocons funded Dems turned 'conservatives' to leave GOP.



There is high risk that current GOP-MAGA wing's funding will vanish in 2020 following recent UK blunder. Without funding, MAGA movement won't survive post 2020.
GOP/Libertarians need to have alternative leadership ready to step in 2020 race.


2020 would be a Dem-Lite vs Dem election unless conservatives/libertarians got in the race




Related


2020: Neocons Swamp Could Be In Big Trouble

[Origanalist]

The Constitution Party, where they should have been all along.

I have to agree with you.

[Pauls' Revere]

The Constitution Party, where they should have been all along.

Mission Statement

The mission of the Constitution Party is to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity through the election, at all levels of government, of Constitution Party candidates who will uphold the principles of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States, and the Bill of Rights. It is our goal to limit the federal government to its delegated, enumerated, Constitutional functions.

https://www.constitutionparty.com/pr...en-principles/

https://www.constitutionparty.com/pr...ve-key-issues/

https://www.constitutionparty.com/pr...three-pillars/

worth a look.

[revgen]

The Constitution Party, despite it's name, doesn't exactly follow the constitution exactly.

It has decided that the 1st amendment doesn't cover "Pornography and Obscenity". It calls on the Federal Government to enforce "obscenity laws". Nowhere in the Constitution or the 1st amendment are the words "obscenity" or "pornography" mentioned. The 1st amendment makes it clear that the freedom of the press cannot be infringed. Free speech is about protecting speech and expression you don't like. Not speech and expression that you approve of.

I'll have to look at the platform more. Besides the "pornography and obscenity" nonsense, they do appear to support the 10th amendment and acknowledge that issues like marriage and the "drug war" are not powers designated to the Federal Government.

[Swordsmyth]

The Constitution Party, despite it's name, doesn't exactly follow the constitution exactly.

It has decided that the 1st amendment doesn't cover "Pornography and Obscenity". It calls on the Federal Government to enforce "obscenity laws". Nowhere in the Constitution or the 1st amendment are the words "obscenity" or "pornography" mentioned. The 1st amendment makes it clear that the freedom of the press cannot be infringed. Free speech is about protecting speech and expression you don't like. Not speech and expression that you approve of.

I'll have to look at the platform more. Besides the "pornography and obscenity" nonsense, they do appear to support the 10th amendment and acknowledge that issues like marriage and the "drug war" are not powers designated to the Federal Government.

They may not be perfect but they are far better than any other option (most definitely including the LP) and I'm certain that at least some of them could be swayed on points like "pornography and obscenity".

[euphemia]

And they vet their candidates thoroughly.

[nobody's_hero]

Libertarians cannot even get along with each other how would they ever expect to make a difference?

Truth.

It sucks but it would just be further and further subdivided and subdivided until someone made king of the ant hill over who is thy most libertarian-est than thou.

Happens here all the time. Piss on the litmus paper and if it doesn't come out a pure color, you're out of the club. It's like an episode of Survivor, Libertarian style.

[Superfluous Man]

Libertarians have been uncomfortably participating in GOP primaries because that party, despite being nearly identical to the other as a matter of policy, at least payed lip service to small government, which gave those of us trying to actually pursue smaller government some degree of cover. I always argued in favor of this strategy, but I'm not sure the rationale still applies, with the modern GOP increasingly not even paying lip service to small government. Amash is on the verge of losing his next reelection because the Trumpenproles tolerate nothing but mindless obedience to Dear Leader. Sanford already lost an election for the same reason. Rand's been lobotomized. Should we go back to the LP and try to turn it into something functional? Create a new party? Sure, we wouldn't win any elections anytime soon, but we're not winning any now. Better to be in principled opposition, a seed for future growth, than to be slowly assimilated into the TrumpBorg. If Amash decides to run on the LP ticket in 2020, which is looking increasingly likely, that may be as good a signal as any that it's time to GTFO and go find some greener pastures.

I'm not big on putting energy and money into politics at all any more. But if you want Amash to win his primary, then supporting him in that primary will help him, and hurt the GOP/Trumpkin establishment.

I can't go back to the LP because I've never been in it to begin with. I also won't go to it to begin with because I see no point in it. If we can muster 2% of the population to vote for someone, the best place to get the most leverage out of those votes is in a major party primary election, where the total turnout is low enough to make that 2% of the population a sizable amount, and then the candidate they support may well win that primary and represent one of the two major parties in a two-party general election. This is much more effective than holding out until that high-turnout two-party general election and throwing those votes at a third-party candidate.

If that strategy isn't worth it (and it very well may not be), then an even worse strategy won't be worth it either. It would be better to put your money and energy into more fruitful endeavors than political activism to help yourself and others to live free in this unfree world.

[jmdrake]

Amash is on the verge of losing his next reelection because the Trumpenproles tolerate nothing but mindless obedience to Dear Leader.

Wrong.

Dannno, I sincerely hope you're right. But judging from the reaction I have seen here, among people most likely to support Amash, I wouldn't bet on you being right. That said, Amash should know his district better than anyone else and when it comes to a house seat the Tip O'Neil saying that "All politics are local" is definitely true.

[specsaregood]

Dannno, I sincerely hope you're right. But judging from the reaction I have seen here, among people most likely to support Amash, I wouldn't bet on you being right. That said, Amash should know his district better than anyone else and when it comes to a house seat the Tip O'Neil saying that "All politics are local" is definitely true.

Dannno, wasn't saying that Amash isn't going to lose.

[jmdrake]

Dannno, wasn't saying that Amash isn't going to lose.

What do you think he was saying then?

[specsaregood]

What do you think he was saying then?

in his own words:

That's not what I said was wrong. Ya, he may lose, but it's not because blind obedience to Trump, it is because he went Leroy Jenkins on a bunch of leftist nonsense.

[Brian4Liberty]

Down 16 points against pro-Trump challenger

http://https://reason.com/2019/06/12...blican-primary

I'm not saying he'll definitely lose, but this is a pretty clear indication of what it takes to work within the GOP.

(blind obedience to POTUS)

That's not what I said was wrong. Ya, he may lose, but it's not because blind obedience to Trump, it is because he went Leroy Jenkins on a bunch of leftist nonsense.

The GOP establishment has been primarying liberty candidates since the Tea Party wave. It has nothing to do with Trump. Trump and the impeachment call is just the leverage they (Karl Rove types) needed with voters. They have waited for such an opening and now they have it.

Blind obedience to Trump is no test. The RINOs and neocons like Murkowski, Collins, Sasse and McCain (before he died) were perfectly safe. The establishment always had their back.

[jkob]

There is no where else to go, third party politics is just an exercise in futility and irrelevance. You're never going to get anywhere with Democrats either as they trend closer to authoritarian socialism, work with people on specific issues if you can but there seems to be less & less middle ground to be had. Rand Paul is still a Republican and he has the ear of the president like him or not, whether or not he listens to him is another thing but Rand's place in the party seems pretty secure. Rand is still relatively young and the septuagenarians that control the party will be gone eventually, there is a lot more he can accomplish.

[r3volution 3.0]

I'm not big on putting energy and money into politics at all any more. But if you want Amash to win his primary, then supporting him in that primary will help him, and hurt the GOP/Trumpkin establishment.

I can't go back to the LP because I've never been in it to begin with. I also won't go to it to begin with because I see no point in it. If we can muster 2% of the population to vote for someone, the best place to get the most leverage out of those votes is in a major party primary election, where the total turnout is low enough to make that 2% of the population a sizable amount, and then the candidate they support may well win that primary and represent one of the two major parties in a two-party general election. This is much more effective than holding out until that high-turnout two-party general election and throwing those votes at a third-party candidate.

If that strategy isn't worth it (and it very well may not be), then an even worse strategy won't be worth it either. It would be better to put your money and energy into more fruitful endeavors than political activism to help yourself and others to live free in this unfree world.

I agree that politics offers a very low ROI.

If you're interested in alternatives (e.g. educational efforts), consider that being non-partisan (vis a vis the GOP/Dems) could be an asset.

A GOP/Dem funded/associated "educational effort" is more likely to be ignored as propaganda than an effort by some independent entity.

Dannno, I sincerely hope you're right. But judging from the reaction I have seen here, among people most likely to support Amash, I wouldn't bet on you being right. That said, Amash should know his district better than anyone else and when it comes to a house seat the Tip O'Neil saying that "All politics are local" is definitely true.

Indeed

Not at all true, not at all convincing.

Fox didn't like him at all.. remember Megan Kelly?

You mean, during the primaries, before he was even the nominee, ~4 years ago?

Yes, I remember.

The GOP establishment initially didn't like Trump because they thought he was going to lose them the election and derail the gravy train.

Turns out they were wrong; Trump won, gravy train's intact.

No problemo

There is this conspiracy hypothesis that Trump is the secret, 100% establishment backed shill. While willing to entertain that hypothesis, I see no evidence of that being true.

...as if you need a "conspiracy hypothesis" to see Trump's record, or to see that the party establishment/media is backing him.

[Brian4Liberty]

...as if you need a "conspiracy hypothesis" to see Trump's record, or to see that the party establishment/media is backing him.

Correlation does not imply causation (of an establishment conspiracy to make Trump POTUS).

[Cleaner44]

Libertarians have been uncomfortably participating in GOP primaries because that party, despite being nearly identical to the other as a matter of policy, at least payed lip service to small government, which gave those of us trying to actually pursue smaller government some degree of cover. I always argued in favor of this strategy, but I'm not sure the rationale still applies, with the modern GOP increasingly not even paying lip service to small government. Amash is on the verge of losing his next reelection because the Trumpenproles tolerate nothing but mindless obedience to Dear Leader. Sanford already lost an election for the same reason. Rand's been lobotomized. Should we go back to the LP and try to turn it into something functional? Create a new party? Sure, we wouldn't win any elections anytime soon, but we're not winning any now. Better to be in principled opposition, a seed for future growth, than to be slowly assimilated into the TrumpBorg. If Amash decides to run on the LP ticket in 2020, which is looking increasingly likely, that may be as good a signal as any that it's time to GTFO and go find some greener pastures.

Are you not aware of Ron Paul's journey from the GOP to the Libertarian party and back to the GOP? You can leave if you want to, but I won't be following you. It is clear to me that the ONLY path to advance libertarian ideas through the GOP. As messed up as the GOP is, it is the best option available. Rand Paul has the right idea and we need more of that (and less Amash stupidity).

[phill4paul]

Libertarians should absolutely leave. They should run on a pro-choice, anti-war, pro-wierdo sexual platform and suck votes from the Democrats. I approve!

[Superfluous Man]

Libertarians should absolutely leave. They should run on a pro-choice, anti-war, pro-wierdo sexual platform and suck votes from the Democrats. I approve!

It's kind of weird how you lumped in "anti-war" with those other points, like you see that as a negative. Kinda makes me wonder what the "4paul" part of your handle is for. Or maybe you've just decided to quit pretending you belonged here.

[phill4paul]

It's kind of weird how you lumped in "anti-war" with those other points, like you see that as a negative. Kinda makes me wonder what the "4paul" part of your handle is for. Or maybe you've just decided to quit pretending you belonged here.

Because Democrats are seen as the anti-war party. Though we know it isn't true. So go $#@! yourself.

[r3volution 3.0]

Are you not aware of Ron Paul's journey from the GOP to the Libertarian party and back to the GOP?

I am.

You can leave if you want to, but I won't be following you. It is clear to me that the ONLY path to advance libertarian ideas through the GOP. As messed up as the GOP is, it is the best option available. Rand Paul has the right idea and we need more of that (and less Amash stupidity).

You can do whatever you please.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[euphemia]

Given that we are only about 8 months from the primaries and 17 months to the general election, this question is a moot point. It is something to talk about now and get busy doing for 2024, or maybe for midterms in 2022. But we have to think about funding and ballot access.

Under no circumstances should we give any support or money to GOP, Dems, or LP. They jolly well better know we mean businesss.

[Warlord]

If Amash loses his seat he should run for president in 2020 and get his own back on Trump. This is becoming personal and I prefer to stand with Amash

[Sammy]

Time For Libertarians To Leave The GOP?

No! No!No! We need to kick out the Neocons from the GOP..
Libertarians,Paleo-Conservatives & even the alt right should work together.