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Thread: Physics and Sin

  1. #1

    Physics and Sin

    Has anyone here thought about sin as it relates to physics? I have been asking this question within myself for a very long time. I have studied a lot with people about the 10 commandments and why are they are commandments? What are the physical aspects of working to adhere to them? How does adherence effect others?

    No killing. envy, anger, sloth, gluttony, coveting, and, adultery. Do they break any laws of physics? According to Judeo/christian teaching sin = death. I keep wondering why they say that. I am trying to understand if it is possible to break the laws of physics and does sin have any connection to the laws of physics(LOP) or breaking them? What do other spiritual philosophies have to say about sin?


    To me the Tao adheres to the LOP and I feel that I gained more knowledge of LOP than thru other philosophies.Some say the Tao is the most ancient philosophy. Perhaps this is denied by many others. I read a book along time ago I can't even the remember the title but it was a study in the 10 commandments and we had an exercise to instead of saying shall not say can not. Which encouraged me to see if my own sin had any effect on my personal physics. Are Human rights in line with the laws of physics? How does human rights apply to laws of nature? Are the laws of nature in line with the LOP Has anyone else ever thought about this? Thank you for reading I look forward to your input.
    Last edited by Working Poor; 07-23-2020 at 10:28 PM.



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  3. #2
    Sin = Entropy


    sin affects everything, so that everything dies.

    Entropy affects everything in the Physical world right down to the orbital decay if electrons at the molecular level.

    a built in countdown clock.

    Entropy entered the world.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Sin = Entropy


    sin affects everything, so that everything dies.

    Entropy affects everything in the Physical world right down to the orbital decay if electrons at the molecular level.

    a built in countdown clock.

    Entropy entered the world.
    So although sin is entropic it is still in harmony with the laws of physics and nature right?

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    So although sin is entropic it is still in harmony with the laws of physics and nature right?
    Sin is what Broke everything.

    Sin=Death

    This physical World,,Psysics.. was broken by Satan's Rebellion..

    Entropy is the Physical Reality of sin. Decay and death.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Sin is what Broke everything.

    Sin=Death

    This physical World,,Psysics.. was broken by Satan's Rebellion..

    Entropy is the Physical Reality of sin. Decay and death.
    So what would happen to the laws of physics without entropy? Can or should it be stopped? Can we stop sinning? Did sin create entropy?

  7. #6
    I think you would like Peter Landsberg's "From Entropy to God". You can find it using Google Fu. He was a Physicist from the UK who passed away back in 2010.

    XNN
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by XNavyNuke View Post
    I think you would like Peter Landsberg's "From Entropy to God". You can find it using Google Fu. He was a Physicist from the UK who passed away back in 2010.

    XNN
    Thanks I will look it up.

  9. #8
    Working Poor, this doesn’t directly address your question, which I find fascinating, but I would recommending the works of Wolfgang Smith.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Working Poor, this doesn’t directly address your question, which I find fascinating, but I would recommending the works of Wolfgang Smith.
    I have seen a few videos on his stuff. He is right on how everything is upside down especially in our thinking and our spiritual lives. Evil wants us dead and thru our sin it is happening. It is so deep in us that we cannot even understand how sinful we actually are and how much it affects the physical world. There is no way we can survive it on the physical plane. As far as I can tell the science of physics is just describing evil in mathematical terms. I am extremely disappointed in science. Science should start with the 10 commandments. They are the laws of the universe.

    When are doctors going to stop killing people?

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    Has anyone here thought about sin as it relates to physics? I have been asking this question within myself for a very long time. I have studied a lot with people about the 10 commandments and why are they are commandments? What are the physical aspects of working to adhere to them? How does adherence effect others?

    No killing. envy, anger, sloth, gluttony, coveting, and, adultery. Do they break any laws of physics? According to Judeo/christian teaching sin = death. I keep wondering why they say that. I am trying to understand if it is possible to break the laws of physics and does sin have any connection to the laws of physics(LOP) or breaking them? What do other spiritual philosophies have to say about sin?


    To me the Tao adheres to the LOP and I feel that I gained more knowledge of LOP than thru other philosophies.Some say the Tao is the most ancient philosophy. Perhaps this is denied by many others. I read a book along time ago I can't even the remember the title but it was a study in the 10 commandments and we had an exercise to instead of saying shall not say can not. Which encouraged me to see if my own sin had any effect on my personal physics. Are Human rights in line with the laws of physics? How does human rights apply to laws of nature? Are the laws of nature in line with the LOP Has anyone else ever thought about this? Thank you for reading I look forward to your input.
    I was a Taoist before I was a Christian.

    I would encourage you to read the writings of Christian mystic and philosopher Simone Weil. Specifically, her work "Gravity and Grace". She relates the Christian concepts of faith and grace to the carnal world of raw natural forces, and talks about how you reconcile a "good God" with a seemingly impersonal and cruel natural order.

    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quote...ur-et-la-gr-ce

    That's kind of from a symbolic approach.

    If you want hard physics, like how to I reconcile "The world was created in six days" with the big bang and a 15 billion year old universe, I would point you towards Gerald Schroeder, author of The Science of God.

    https://www.goodreads.com/author/quo...rald_Schroeder

    There's a great one hour long youtube series where he explains that from the perspective of relativistic physics there is no contradiction.

    Here's part 1, you can search the rest:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfgIFuoIBs
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson
    I would encourage you to read the writings of Christian mystic and philosopher Simone Weil.
    I appreciate all theses suggestion for reading but I would really prefer to read your own thoughts on the matter.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    I have seen a few videos on his stuff. He is right on how everything is upside down especially in our thinking and our spiritual lives. Evil wants us dead and thru our sin it is happening. It is so deep in us that we cannot even understand how sinful we actually are and how much it affects the physical world. There is no way we can survive it on the physical plane. As far as I can tell the science of physics is just describing evil in mathematical terms. I am extremely disappointed in science. Science should start with the 10 commandments. They are the laws of the universe.

    When are doctors going to stop killing people?
    I’m not sure what videos you are mentioning. His explanation of vertical causality is potentially revolutionary with regards to the modern worldview, especially with regards to the dichotomy between the ‘quantum world’ and the corporeal world which we live, breath and have our being. There is a major crisis currently underway in multiple fields of science, notably quantum physics, cosmology, and evolutionary biology (many former presuppositions and theories are turning out to be untenable or simply absurd), where we may be entering into a new era of understanding of the world around us. His notion of vertical causality goes a long way in bridging the divide between the world of quantity and horizontal causation (which has been the prevailing worldview since the days of Galileo, Newton, and especially Descartes) and reaffirming what the ancients have known way back then, namely the tripartite ontology of humankind and nature. He reconciles the metaphysical kerygma which has been lost in the materialistic world of the past few centuries and reintroduces Aristotelean notions of potentia and hylomorphism which can provide a much more realistic understanding of who and what we are than what the modern physicist can offer. I think his genius won’t be fully appreciated by the public at large for another couple of decades. Very worthwhile reading if quantum mechanics, ontology, and metaphysics are subjects which interest you.

    As for the nature of sin, you will not find the ‘science of sin’ studying physics, since physics is nothing more than observational measurements of physical motion within the space time continuum. Sin on the other hand, is a spiritual condition/sickness, indeed, stemming from a lack of grace. It is the absence of the uncreated energy of God. It has no substance or existence in itself but is rather a state devoid of grace (not unlike how darkness has no substance in itself but it is rather the absence of light). Sin is a spiritual sickness and is thus something physics can never explain or make positive comments about. All it could ever (possibly) do is empirically demonstrate the effects of sin on the physical world. Again, not sure that could ever be done since we are speaking of things which have their origin outside the physical world, even as it effects our physical world. When Adam and Eve gleamed such knowledge through disobedience, the effects were all too obvious.

    If you wish to find more in-depth knowledge about this, then I refer you to the writings of St. Maximos the Confesssor and St. Gregory Palamas, who provide the best understanding of the nature of sin and its relation to the human condition. Nothing I might think personally comes close to their absolute genius which was born of ascetisicm, study, and above all, prayer, them having reached spiritual heights few in history have approached. Their wisdom was not born of scientific study (thought they were quite knowledgeable), but of discernment and illumination through divine revelation.

    As for the last comment regarding doctors killing people, I’m not sure of what that comment was born from. If you are asking when is tragedy going to end, or when is evil going to cease, or when will sin be completely destroyed, the answer given to us is that all corruption, sin, and death will end when Christ returns to establish the new creation and His eternal Kingdom. Until then, there will be poor people, their will be injustice, there will be sin, and there will be corruption.
    Last edited by TER; 08-16-2020 at 03:28 PM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TER
    As for the nature of sin, you will not find the ‘science of sin’ studying physics,
    @TER, thank you so much for jumping into this discussion I truly respect and trust your input. That being said I am not attempting to understand the nature of sin but the physical results of sin. Sin is a force like gravity it ties us to the earth. It almost seems like sin is gravity. I have been trying to understand gravity and magnetism since I first held a magnet in my hand when I was a child. I have read all this nonsense about negative and positive charged gravitron atoms. Na it is just sin. I have heard it said that God will weight our heart against a feather on judgement day. Sin is physical every sin we commit will cause physical results. Imagine how sin must be affecting the earth and the universe as it echos outward. Oh we are in for some big trouble. Forgiveness does neutralize sin and I believe that the only reason we have not destroyed ourselves yet is because of people asking Jesus for forgiveness of sin and praying for healing. One of the saddest things is that so many children are not being taught about it instead they are taught to enjoy sinning.

    Do you think disease has anything to do with sinning since we all sin and it is a sickness? What if doctors could acknowledge sin as the cause of their illness to their patients? I think their are laws against doctors calling sickness the result of sin but I am not sure since there are so many regulations I am tired of seeing my loved ones die and being crippled and maimed in the name of "science" since no doctor is going to say hey stop sinning to them. I know you work in the medical field TER given that you are a person of faith this must trouble you at times.

  16. #14
    Hi, I just wanted to touch base and say I will respond in the next couple of days. Didn’t want you to think I forgot. Just super busy and don’t want to rush a reply.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  17. #15
    Hello friend, I will try to reply what I can at this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    That being said I am not attempting to understand the nature of sin but the physical results of sin.
    What are you trying to understand? The physics behind sin? That is, the physical properties and movement of sin within the integral cosmos? Because studying the physical properties and it’s mechanics only brings greater knowledge of the ‘how’, as interesting as it is (and it is interesting)! Yet even in the ‘how’, it only reveals more questions and more enigmas. And either way, ultimately, it is the much less important question, which is “why?”

    That is the question we should be asking. Does knowing the ‘how‘ help? Yes, of course. It reveals the power and glory of God, and can help in our journey as saved sinners.

    But the superior question is to ask ‘why’!

    Because then we seek the reason, or logos, of God. And it is the Logos of God Who gives us divine understanding. Everything we have received which is good originated from God, the Father of lights.

    What then is gravity? How does it relate to sin? What is corruption and disease and is it a manifestation of sin, and is that applicable across the board with all diseases and disabilities?

    These are all good questions and worthy of meditation, but unless we look at the spiritual, which is above the corporal, we can get easily distracted with the lower and be fixated on mathematical proofs and causative explanations (or very often, false theories based on presuppositions).

    I do not mean of course to denigrate the flesh or the material world. For although it is the lower, it is still of vital importance and great value, a gift given to us. It is still worthy of veneration and glorification, for the Lord took upon Himself creation and human flesh, and ascended it to the Right Hand of the Father. Christ has made human nature and the created world sanctified by His Incarnation and Ascension. We are after all not docetists, which is a heresy. That is not Christ’s teachings. There is no dichotomy, there is rather unity and symphonia. It is us having flesh which made Satan so jealous so as to conspire against God and us. Our flesh and the material world is a great gift by God, and we should be grateful. For it teaches us the way back to God if we construct it as a temple for God, and allows us to share in His glory by grace. Our flesh is amongst our best teachers in patience, temperance, and perseverance. It can be a reason for humility and repentance, and thus a way back to our Creator. It can be a generator of charity and love towards our neighbor. We are not humans without our physical bodies, and we will not enter the eternal Kingdom without first having been resurrected in our bodies, in the image of the risen Christ, Who is the first fruits of the new creation.

    Remember that our battle is a spiritual one above all. The great lie of the past few centuries stem from materialism and relativism, the former being the idolization of the physical material world, and the latter being the ignorance of the spiritual world (which is indeed a consequence of said idolization of the physical world).

    Descartes is a pioneer in this cultural transformation, relegating quantities and matter as the objective and real, while denigrating the qualities and forms (which is in fact the higher and real!) as being subjective and relative. This bifurcation has helped engineer the current mainstream and popular presuppositions of today, and in myriad of ways, from scientific to philosophical, and from moral to ethical.

    Meanwhile, quantum physics, the more it is studied and ‘worked-out’, is demonstrating a ‘world’ of non locality, probabilities, and indeed non-existence until it is observed and measured! A great quantum enigma exists, and the deeper one goes, the more astonishing and bewildering it gets.

    Indeed, the further we grow in knowledge of the physical world, the closer we find that the glory and wisdom of God surpasses all human imagination and contemplation.

    And these reflect the glory and wisdom of God, and all which He made, He made good, including this flesh of ours which will eventually die and turn to dust.

    But what of this flesh, which goes hungry, grows thirsty, gets tired and feels pain? What is there to glory or find peace in? How is it that there is disease and sickness, and to sum it up tragedy and sorrow?

    And it is because of sin, as you rightly said. The sin in the world is the ‘why’ which we must first understand if we are to stop living as blind and distracted slaves in the city of man, full of fear and anxiety, and rather become illuminated citizens in the city of God, full of peace and joy.

    When sin entered the heart of Adam, who was the steward of creation, it transformed the entire cosmos and all that is in it. How did this happen in terms of etiology and ontology? It is beyond current human understanding. We do not have a mathematical equation to describe it. But it doesn’t matter if you don’t first understand the answer to the greater question, which is ‘why‘. It is interesting to learn the how, but it is vital to know the why.

    The effects of sin has been ubiquitous throughout creation, not at all exterminating the good in the divine image, but ‘pushing it down’ as you are alluding to, and inserting chaos in what was divine order, as pscomar has noted. Yes, now there is disease, decay and death, and forces which cause pain and suffering. Sin has diverted creation away from its source and sustainer, thus separating it from life, which in turn ultimately leads to death.

    Now it is extremely important to understand that this corruption and decay (which Christ came to heal us from and save us from) has permeated creation, and it’s reason is because of pride.

    There is much more I want to say in reply to your sincere post, and answers I wish to give to your primary question, but this already has become a wall of text and I have babbled enough for one night. I share your interest on the physical effects of sin and the nature of the world around us and how ontologically it is affected by sin. I will come back as time permits to further elaborate on the important statements you have made. Be well!
    Last edited by TER; 08-19-2020 at 12:13 AM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    @TER Sin is a force like gravity it ties us to the earth. It almost seems like sin is gravity. I have been trying to understand gravity and magnetism since I first held a magnet in my hand when I was a child. I have read all this nonsense about negative and positive charged gravitron atoms. Na it is just sin.
    We think very much alike. The atomist view of the cosmos, held by some Ancient Greek mathematicians/philosophers and which has been the prevailing scientistic worldview over these last few centuries (especially since Galileo, Descartes, Newton and Einstein) is more and more being scientifically demonstrated to be severely flawed. They have removed the aether and the classic physics which explains cogently the observational real world we live in in order to construct an irrational world of particle quantum physics which as time goes on is only showing more and more to be in fact substance-less, devoid of ‘real’ particles, a fantasy of no emission, and devoid of truth which is potentia and field perturbations, (as Tesla rightly taught). They try and find meaning with math, using quantity, while disregarding the metaphysical which gives ontological meaning and quality (indeed, the higher science because it describes the real universe and our conscious being). The modern dogmas of the modern physicists have constructed a worldview based on faulty presuppositions and have spent the past century only trying to vindicate the dogmas handed down to them, even as they construct more and more modifying calculation in order to make the square fit the circle. They construct orgies of mathematical equations until they can fit the square and at the same have lost bearing in common sense and rationality. So now ‘dark matter’, so now ‘multiverse’ theories. There is a major crisis in the world of quantum scientific academia. It’s not being much publicized, but hollow foundation walls are beginning to crumble.

    How does this relate to sin and it’s effects? I am not sure, but the effects of sin permeates the entire tripartite cosmos as it does the tripartite human, namely physically, noetically, and spiritually. Field perturbations of potentia within the aether? Why not? I’m sure Tesla would agree.
    Last edited by TER; 08-20-2020 at 09:27 PM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  20. #17
    I have heard it said that God will weight our heart against a feather on judgement day. Sin is physical every sin we commit will cause physical results. Imagine how sin must be affecting the earth and the universe as it echos outward. Oh we are in for some big trouble.
    Most assuredly, not one sin goes unnoticed, either from before the eyes of God or the balance of the universe. There is a reason why the Lord warns of the seismic events which will shake the world as we approach the end, and it is because of the amount of sin and lack of prayer, faith, and love (which are the forces which keeps the chaos at bay and the darkness away). It is the light which sustains, and sin, like darkness, ‘exists’ only in the absence of light. It is like the connection between the divine which is animating and life giving and makes incorruptible is interfered, and this lack of connection on account of sin (which is in fact existing only because of the lack of connection/divine acting) which allows the chaos to corrupt the image of the divine order. And what is separation from life but death? And from light but nothingness and darkness?

    Forgiveness does neutralize sin and I believe that the only reason we have not destroyed ourselves yet is because of people asking Jesus for forgiveness of sin and praying for healing. One of the saddest things is that so many children are not being taught about it instead they are taught to enjoy sinning.
    If all Christians on earth stopped believing and praying today, the world would be destroyed by tomorrow morning. It is the mercy of God and the prayers of the saints which has delayed the fearful judgment, allowing us more time for repentance.

    Do you think disease has anything to do with sinning since we all sin and it is a sickness? What if doctors could acknowledge sin as the cause of their illness to their patients? I think their are laws against doctors calling sickness the result of sin but I am not sure since there are so many regulations I am tired of seeing my loved ones die and being crippled and maimed in the name of "science" since no doctor is going to say hey stop sinning to them. I know you work in the medical field TER given that you are a person of faith this must trouble you at times.
    I will need to come back to this after some more thought. In the meanwhile I will say that sin affects not only us, but those around us, not unlike how Adam’s sin did not just create negative affects in him, but in the cosmos at large. Thus, while one can say “all diseases stem from sin”, it doesn’t mean one can necessarily say “this disease is because of this one’s sin”. Rather, disease, suffering and death in this world is account of sin in the world, and not necessarily the sin in the person (though of course that happens all the time). For example, the Lord suffered and died because of sin, but not because He sinned. Rather, He allowed the blameless passions (hunger, thirst, pain, etc) and sufferings and finally death because He willed it to affect Him. Why? Because sin has penetrated into the holistic nature of men and of creation in general, and the only way He could heal it was to merge it with His divine nature and restore it into a higher form.

    I will try and wrap up tomorrow. I wish you a good night!
    Last edited by TER; 08-20-2020 at 09:36 PM.
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    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  21. #18
    BTW, the Tao you mentioned in your OP is a glimpse of what the Lord would eventually come to reveal in fullness. This ancient Chinese work is a form of logos spermatikos (a spark and early discernment) of the Logos of God, Who is Christ Himself, the Word of God. Lao Tzu gleamed the Logos in the world just around the time the ancient Greeks half a world away were recognizing it within their own philosophical endeavors. His is an incomplete understanding of course, reaching such insights prior to the Incarnation and outside the historical knowledge of the Messianic promise of Israel. Nevertheless, he reached a closer understanding of life and the meaning of life than few did before him, having discerned the way (Tao) towards peace and fulfillment in the Logos (which is translated into Chinese as the same word, Tao).
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Hi, I just wanted to touch base and say I will respond in the next couple of days. Didn’t want you to think I forgot. Just super busy and don’t want to rush a reply.
    @TER I am so glad you are here expressing your thoughts on this matter. I was almost afraid to read your reply. I have tried to have a conversation many times about this. Many people do not believe that evil exist and that sin is the vehicle on which it rides. I would love to be able to prove to the world that there is scientific evidence of sin and what it does. I think one of the problems is that it would be difficult to find a physical place where sin has not yet touched. Since Jesus is the only person to ever have led a sinless life He is our only example of a man living in this way. So many people have decided that Jesus is just a myth.

    When I was a child I got kicked out of Sunday school because of my confessed sin. The teacher asked us to think of our worst sin and confess it. So I thought about it and said "procrastination" was my worst sin. My mother told me that the teacher did not know what it meant and that she thought it must be something unforgivable. I was really worried about it I was only 3 at the time but it really did shape my path to understanding how could I work out my sin. I have been shunned at church many other times because what I have said disrupted what was being taught.

    Is it possible to live without sin? Jesus said "go and sin no more" so to me that implies that it is possible to live without it. This is where there has been a real bone of contention between me and church because the teaching keep saying we are still sinners. Too many married pastors are committing adultery with their parishioners and so on and so forth. This type of thing has been going on for so long that it is not considered proper to call it out. People seem to think that their sin is ok but mine will send me to hell.

    If I have a real desire it is to follow Him and to live a sinless life. I can't accept that it is not possible to live a sinless life. I wonder if I have not really accepted the forgiveness yet.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    @TER Many people do not believe that evil exist and that sin is the vehicle which it rides.
    This is because it is a spiritual battle which is being fought in the fabric of creation and all that exists within creation. The ground cries out against the sins of the world. The blood of the innocents cry out.

    Everyone knows that evil exists and that sin exists. Instead, they choose to ignore it or worse, partake in it

    I would love to be able to prove to the world that there is scientific evidence of sin and what it does.
    For what reason though? It may be proof to you, but to those who willfully choose to ignore such proof, they will offer their own mathematical equations as ‘prove’ to their own positions. Do you know how many equations I can do to get the final answer of 10? In fact. I can make up my own mathematical models and symbols out of thin air to have the final answer of 10.

    Indeed, if they are so blind to not see that evil exists, at least in the contemporary understanding of existence, and so dumb to the presence of evil in the world around them and even in them, then no mathematical proof of anything will convince them of anything which does not confirms to their own religious materialistic beliefs.

    Don’t worry about proving sin. Those who have eyes will see, with math or without it. Resist and overcome sin in yourself, and that will be the greatest proof you can give.

    I think one of the problems is that it would be difficult to find a physical place where sin has not yet touched. Since Jesus is the only person to ever have led a sinless life He is our only example of a man living in this way. So many people have decided that Jesus is just a myth.
    Many think He is a myth because they fear the alternative, and think that if they can convince enough people, somehow their slander against God will be justified or vindicated. They know that if Christ is Who He says He is, then they would have to answer for all of their sins and the evil which they have done in this life given to them.

    Going further, I must, as an orthodox Christian (and I use the little ‘o’ orthodox because what I am about so say is orthodox in that it is the correct belief handed down by the saints since the early Christians, not selectively to the ‘Eastern Orthodox Church’, but common to all Christian churches which can historically and demonstrably trace themselves back, in time, to the very apostles), namely that the Virgin Mary, the God-birther, lived a sinless life. There is a reason God the Father chose her of all who ever lived in order to bring His beloved Son into the world. Sadly, many modern Christians reject this dogma of the ancient Christian teachings and instead themselves call it a mere myth. It is a myth in that it tells a pedagogic story, but it’s truth is what gives understanding of the divine providence of God and the love and glory of His beloved saints. For even the Holy Theotokos, whom lived sinless, felt and saw the effects of sin in the world. For she experienced hunger, and thirst in her exodus to Egypt. She experienced sorrow and pain at watching her Son executed on the Cross. Yet even so great a saint, the greatest who ever lived, she still had no escape from these effects and the final consequence of them which is sickness and death. So powerful is sin entwined into the substance in this creation, that there is no escape human can find, until of course the promised Messiah came in order to loose the chains of sin upon our nature and break the bind of death. And with the Virgin Mary, and all the saints, we sinners cry out to God “have mercy upon me and deliver me”.

    When I was a child I got kicked out of Sunday school because of my confessed sin. The teacher asked us to think of our worst sin and confess it. So I thought about it and said "procrastination" was my worst sin. My mother told me that the teacher did not know what it meant and that she thought it must be something unforgivable. I was really worried about it I was only 3 at the time but it really did shape my path to understanding how could I work out my sin. I have been shunned at church many other times because what I have said disrupted what was being taught.
    I am sorry about these personal experiences you have had. I can see why it could harm an impressionable young mind.

    Is it possible to live without sin? Jesus said "go and sin no more" so to me that implies that it is possible to live without it. This is where there has been a real bone of contention between me and church because the teaching keep saying we are still sinners. Too many married pastors are committing adultery with their parishioners and so on and so forth. This type of thing has been going on for so long that it is not considered proper to call it out. People seem to think that their sin is ok but mine will send me to hell.
    We can live sinlessly, and we will still grow old, suffer disease, and eventually die in the flesh. But the reality is that we are weak, and not one of us can live without doing sin. For we sin when we say we do not sin, as St. John said. If we need salvation from death even if we do not sin, how much more mercy and forgiveness do we need when we do in fact sin, and countless times at that?

    The Church is correct in saying that we are all sinners, for we all fall short to the purity and goodness of God. The creature who believed he had no sin was Lucifer, for the more one loves God and desires Him begins to more clearly see the sin they do and it’s effects it has in themselves and the world and people around them.

    The adulterous pastor you gave as an example is a hypocrite and a sinner, and unless he repents and seeks forgiveness and tries to ‘sin no more’, then he is not a pastor but a wolf in sheep’s clothing. But this does not mean that all pastors or priests live this way or do such evil. Your experiences are limited to your personal story, but they do not encompass the totality of creation and the individuals who live in it. I assure you, there are holy pastors who walk on this earth right now. Look to them as teachers and pastors and flee from those who speak from both sides of their mouth and who live as Pharisaical hypocrites.

    If I have a real desire it is to follow Him and to live a sinless life. I can't accept that it is not possible to live a sinless life. I wonder if I have not really accepted the forgiveness yet.
    Your desire to follow Him and live a sinless life is the very definition of the Way! It is the Christian ethos from A to Z! That is how every Christian should seek to live every moment of their life.

    You are correct in saying that we can live a sinless life, if we can truly do that, in likeness to the Virgin Mary. But do we? Do we fast and pray as we should? Do we live selfless lives, and give our wealth and clothing to live in poverty for the sake of others? Do we renounce the passions and the distracting delights in this world in total service and obedience to God? Dare I say, have we reached the purity of Christ?

    No we have not, none of us reading this has, and it is only through His mercy and forgiveness whereby we can find remission of sins and unity with the perfect and sinless God. Our efforts open the door and prepare the temple, but it is His grace which fills it up and purifies it and raises it up to His heavenly kingdom.
    Last edited by TER; 08-22-2020 at 02:27 PM.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  24. #21
    i
    t is His grace which fills it up and purifies it and raises it up to His heavenly kingdom.
    I hope I can have enough grace to be able to fight the good fight. For some reason I feel like I have some fight boiling up in me I feel like a warrior. I want to slay some dragons.Have you heard about Cern? The people who say they have found the God particle and have exploded it in a hrydron colider and claim they are creating other universes or some such stuff. I don't know why I get kinda angry about it.I don't know what they think they are doing but it sounds really hinky and the USA is probably paying for most of it about 10 billion or some such figure.. It really brings out the fight in me. It is dedicated to the goddess of destruction. I don't care to call her name.

    Most assuredly, not one sin goes unnoticed, either from before the eyes of God or the balance of the universe. There is a reason why the Lord warns of the seismic events which will shake the world as we approach the end
    Well I am pretty sure this Cern thing has something to do with all that.
    Below I have posted the latest video directly from The Cern Channel on youtube. It's not long thank God but it is interesting if nothing else. It looks lie the quantum physics of sin to me though.

  25. #22
    I have looked into the CERN collider. Seems like a modern iteration of the Tower of Babylon. I definitely get an uneasy feeling with it, especially with the symbolism they use (the Hindu goddess you described) and some of the reports which are alleged (demonic manifestations occurring at the site, paranormal occurrences, abnormal cloud formations and weather patterns over the area). I saw a video of a Luciferian sacrifice of a young lady/girl in front of the statue. The official response of this alleged leaked video was that it was an unauthorized staged event. Who knows? It may in fact however been real. God (and those people who participated) know. Nothing surprises me anymore.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  26. #23
    @TER It is easy to see someone elses sin but very difficult to see our own. How many Christians have a friend or family member who will actually help us to see our own sin? Yea Jesus offers the neutralization of our sin of our sin thru forgiveness. We have to confess it before He will. Our brains actually respond when we confess. How many of us as Christians pray that we stop sinning? Too many are over looked. we are allowing babies to be taught how to have sex and to explore if they are born into the wrong body in public schools how evil is that? I personally am so glad that most schools are shut down. I feel like I am sinning if I put up with it.

    Who is going to confront the pastor, the neighbor, the cashier at walmart, the doctor, the lawyer, the government official making laws, or the police officer enforcing them? Who is going to throw a little fertilizer on the seeds of righteousness? The chickens? Are we too PC to tell anyone Jesus saves? Are we going to teach the children to pray?

    We as Christians keep beating around the bush with this stuff. It is like a sin bomb has exploded in our world and everyone just accepts it like there is nothing that can be done about it.

    This thread has more than 600 views yet there are only 4 people talking about this. Why don't more people want to talk about it? Do a few agree with what is being said? Do any disagree? Is it too deep of a subject? SIn is deeply embedded in our society. Aren't we responsible to confront it? How many Christians put their daughters on birth control pills because they don't have the guts to explain why their children should not be having sex before marriage? How many doctors put these children on birth control and use the excuse of having menstrual troubles when all they are really doing is telling these children it is ok to have sex. why are doctors not finding real solutions to health issues instead of covering them up with a drug that mask symptoms and drives sickness deeper into the body?

    Oh we will mind our own business on these things alright saying it is not up to us to save our fellow human being from death. We treat other people who don't know the Lord as though they can't be saved. I have seen sin kill people there was no gun or bomb. God gave us everything we need to heal. One of those things is our own ability to open our mouths and confront sin. Why aren't Christians as angry as BLM?

    Being religious is not going to confront this. Jesus was not into religion or swearing oaths. The harvest is huge are we going to let the crop rot in the field? People are suffering because nobody will confront their sin and show them Jesus is the solution. The people I love the most are the ones who won't let me get away with sinning. All these children being taught that they have a "right" to have sex and to kill their unborn child OMG we are destroying innocence. Be thou perfect what about that? Love your enemy and confront sin.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jagrow View Post
    Well, some health issues require taking birth control pills, don't be like that...
    How am I being? I can't see how making the female body "think" it is pregnant is a medical necessity. This is what birth control pills do. Putting children on birth control is so wrong. Girls do need to be taught about their bodies and to learn to know when they are ovulating. I believe it is possible to learn how to control ovulation with our minds.
    I was reading about birth control pills before they were put on the market when they were doing experiments and clinical trials. You probably have no idea how much birth control pills have contributed to moral decline. I am old enough to remember how life was before women and men were being programed to believe that having sex is a recreational sport. I remember when most women stayed at home and raised their children. Life was so much easier back then children were more secure and healthier too. I remember when a penny was actually worth something. It was a sad day when women started being taught that being a wife and mother was bad. All manner of evil was planted on the earth.



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  29. #25

    Cool Physics Of Sin & 7Deadly Sins

    I am wondering if each person on the planet would work on reducing one of the 7 sins in their own life how would that impact the world? I bet if even 1% of the population did it that the impact would be felt thru out the world. I have to run but, I wanted to get this out there hopefully, I will be able to develop a formula to submit to statisticians while I am gone.

  30. #26
    The laws of physics and the Law are two different things.

    The laws of physics cannot be broken. It doesn't happen. Unlike physics, God in His grace allows us to violate the Law, and even suffers the devil to encourage us to do it.

    It's dangerous to conflate the two. There was a Texas cop who parked his Ford Exploder on a train track with the disco lights flashing and ran off after a suspect. When he got back, his cruiser was shaped like a banana. "I thought he'd stop for me." Even the shortest train can weigh a thousand tons (2,000,000 pounds). With steel wheels on steel rail, there's no way. It can take forever to stop from ten mph. The engineer could not cause that train to violate the laws of physics and spare that cruiser.

    When a government begins jailing that engineer because the cop didn't understand the laws of physics, then God's Law has no resemblance to the law of the land.

    Now arguably, the laws of physics were written by God, and deserve that capital L. I got nothing bad to say about that. But they're a whole different volume. This batch of Laws aren't broken. Ever.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 02-21-2022 at 09:39 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    The laws of physics and the Law are two different things.

    The laws of physics cannot be broken.


    Pretty sure Jesus broke ALL the laws when he resurrected from the dead...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ClaytonB View Post


    Pretty sure Jesus broke ALL the laws when he resurrected from the dead...
    So go juggle a mountain, Mohammed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    I am wondering if each person on the planet would work on reducing one of the 7 sins in their own life how would that impact the world? I bet if even 1% of the population did it that the impact would be felt thru out the world. I have to run but, I wanted to get this out there hopefully, I will be able to develop a formula to submit to statisticians while I am gone.
    This is a great thread and if I get time, I would like to give a detailed reply to your OP. Here are some thoughts that I hope will help you along the path you are thinking on...

    Note that sin/holiness do not inhere in any physical object or action:

    Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

    After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

    He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and defile a person.

    (Mark 7:14-23)
    So, sin originates within the heart. It is the choice/intentionality that makes something sin. In law, there is a concept called mens rea which means "guilty mind" and it is closely related to this concept. It is mens rea that differentiates between murder (which is always a crime) and homicide (which may or may not be a crime or have civil liability). The anti-gun nuts cannot understand this because they deny the soul (heart)... for them, the act of causing death is a crime, unless you are wearing a badge and gun. Notice how the fleshly mind always wants to "physicalize" moral law... they want a kind of moral law that can be measured in a laboratory. "Was the person who caused death wearing an official badge issued by the police department?" So this purely physical test becomes a sufficient condition for assessing guilt, which is insane. Rather, the real question is intent... what were the intentions (purposes) of the one who caused death? If they were evil purposes, then the death was a murder, full-stop. Otherwise, the situation might be more complicated (accident, negligence, crime of passion, etc.)

    A more theological way to think about this is to understand that God's power flows from his holiness. God is all-powerful because he is holy. Power flows from virtue, not the other way around. The fleshly mind wants to reverse this relation because it seeks to define all of reality (including moral/spiritual truth) in terms of physics. The Pharisees in the Gospels are the ultimate example of the fleshly mind. "Everything they do is done for people to see" (Matthew 23:5a) Why does it matter for people to see what they do?? Yes, because you can get rep and make yourself more influential, and so on, but there is something deeper at work here: "Woe to those who go to great depths to hide their plans from the Lord, who do their work in darkness and think, 'Who sees us? Who will know?'" (Isaiah 29:15) Jesus repeatedly calls the Pharisees blind, deaf, blind guides, and so on. How are they blind, specifically? Because they believe that God cannot see what they do in darkness, that is, in private. So they believe that God sees only what they do for men to see. Behind closed doors, they are demons from the pit of hell, because they falsely believe God does not see all. And when they go out in public, they believe that God's eyes can see them through the eyes of other men, and so they make a big show of how righteous they are. They reject the Scriptures which teach that God looks on the heart (Proverbs 21:2, 1 Sam. 16:7, Jer. 17:10, Prov. 16:2) and so they are blind.

    It is God's word which created all things, and upholds and sustains them. That includes not only the material stuff we can touch, but also the intangible creation that we cannot observe (the heavens), which are higher than space and more removed than the electromagnetic ether or even the quantum vacuum. God rules all of that, and it obeys his will without effort or resistance. God is light (1 John 1:5), and the meaning of this is not physical but, rather, it teaches us that God dispels the darkness without effort, just as light overcomes darkness without effort. No darkness can resist light, it is instantly overwhelmed and subjugated to the light. This physical picture teaches us about spiritual reality -- those who walk in the light are surrounded by divine protection which dispels that darkness around them without any effort at all, it simply collapses into nothingness like a house of cards built on the beach that is blown away without resistance by the constant winds.

    Even entropy is subject to the will of God. We can see this in Genesis as aging begins to overtake men. Adam and his immediate descendants lived to be nearly 1,000 years old. After the Flood, lifespans shortened but even Noah lived to be 950. His descendants would all have shorter lifespans until men lived as they do now, most less than 100 years, but a few longer. Even humans can reverse entropy, that's what a refrigerator is, it is a machine that reduces entropy within a confined space. Of course, we cannot do this at parity, meaning, there is always more waste heat (correlating to entropy) generated in the process, but the point is that entropy (disorder), in itself, is not something that is "above God". In fact, entropy is a perfect picture of the Old Covenant, the law of Moses. Without forgiveness, everything and everyone perishes. Entropy is inevitable in the evolution of any irreversible mechanical process. Reversibility requires that every event be remembered (in complete detail) forever, so that it can be undone. "If you, Lord, kept a record of sins, Lord, who could stand?" (Psalm 130:3) And mechanism is rigid law (no forgiveness) as in a game of chess with no take-backs. So eternal life (the elimination of the deadly effects of entropy) is only possible through forgetting, that is, discarding the memory of sin, and forgiving, that is, relinquishing our claims upon others for wrongs done.
    Last edited by ClaytonB; 02-21-2022 at 11:27 PM.
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    So go juggle a mountain, Mohammed.
    On it...
    Jer. 11:18-20. "The Kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

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