"From this point onward, your opinion does not matter!"

[Natural Citizen]

Alot of people tend to incorrectly criticize libertarianism when comparing it to/measuring it against whatever faithism they have a problem with at a given moment but those people don't generally understand what libertarianism actually is at its core anyway. At least that's my observation. Not only that but true and fundamental libertarianism most often gets misrepresented as a consequence of someone's squabbles with another over who is worthier than thou or whose interpretation of scripture is right or wrong. Of course, it's fair to conclude that many people who identify as libertarian don't, themselves, understand what libertarianism is either. Is what it is. Seems like this is likely why/how libertarianism is so easily misrepresented.

[hells_unicorn]

To us the five points are simply an over reaction to Rome.

To be technical, the five points are a reaction to something created by Rome, namely a revival of the Pelagian heresy. The theology that led to the 5-points goes back to when Rome and Constantinople were still in communion, but the specific points themselves were developed to answer a very specific mutation of said ancient errors. The Synod of Dort was validly called and deliberated, and while the five points themselves are not germane to the ongoing disagreements between Eastern Orthodoxy and the western church, they are hardly an overreaction. The goofy theological liberalism that dominates modern "Christianity" is rooted in Arminian errors and Jesuit casuistry, so I would argue against calling them an overreaction, though I will admit that people tend to be overly reliant upon them and use them as a crutch to avoid deeper theological issues.

[hells_unicorn]

Many things, not just from you.

The question to Eduardo about, "why is eating meat on Fridays in Lent a sin?" His response was that it denied the authority of the Church.

Most people fast to get closer to God. Most Roman Catholics will say that too. That's why I fasted as a Catholic, but underlying it was the legalism that lead to the Reformation. It's also why the fasts in the Catholic Church are so watered down as to be meaningless.

One of the primary factors of me leaving Roman Catholicism was the notion that the authority of the Church was not historically consistent, particularly on the matter of official church doctrine. I found the whole notion of a church council or the Roman Bishop having carte blanche without any regard for scripture and existing precedents via ecumenical council disturbing.

But I definitely feel your pain, I was myself an atheist for several years and I still tend to exhibit the tendency to lash out in a snarky and sarcastic manner whenever dealing with opponents. I tend to be the worst when dealing with atheists, perhaps because I have a desire to go back in time and rebuke myself into oblivion for buying into all the rubbish that goes with being a secular humanist, skeptic and materialist.

The beatitudes are a continual reminder of our need to grow in faith, and Calvin's work on the beatitudes appealed to me greatly given their harmony with Augustine's views regarding sanctification, it just plays perfectly to my hyper-logical and meticulous way of thinking. We ebb and flow in our process of growth, and it is both humbling and even a bit intimidating when contemplating the whole scope of what the beatitudes imply.

[Sola_Fide]

To be technical, the five points are a reaction to something created by Rome, namely a revival of the Pelagian heresy. The theology that led to the 5-points goes back to when Rome and Constantinople were still in communion, but the specific points themselves were developed to answer a very specific mutation of said ancient errors. The Synod of Dort was validly called and deliberated, and while the five points themselves are not germane to the ongoing disagreements between Eastern Orthodoxy and the western church, they are hardly an overreaction. The goofy theological liberalism that dominates modern "Christianity" is rooted in Arminian errors and Jesuit casuistry, so I would argue against calling them an overreaction, though I will admit that people tend to be overly reliant upon them and use them as a crutch to avoid deeper theological issues.

Limited Atonement is a crutch? There's something deeper than that? What is it, because I have no idea what could be deeper than that.

What is deeper than the gospel?

[jmdrake]

So the slaves of sin set themselves free with their own choice.

I don't know how in the world you could get that from that passage. Make no sense from the text. Do slaves set themselves free?

Either your logic circuits are broken or your reading comprehension circuits are broken or both. At the end of the civil war the American Negros were set free but they had a choice. They could stay on the plantation and basically continue to be slaves. Some did.

[jmdrake]

"America is mostly a Democracy, but our God runs a Theocracy and your opinion is not important" ~Bill Winston (paraphrase)
"From this point onward, your opinion does not matter!" ~Bill Winston (exact quote)
^^^
FYI: This is a TV preacher, not my local family church.

I have recently been looking into the deep "rabbit-hole" of faith, and need to know something:

• How does anyone believe in individual freedom, while accepting "slavery" to religion?

Note: There is, at least one, actual Bible verse which specifically asks us to be SLAVES to God and/or Jesus.

My/your opinion doesn't matter?
Really?
I am not trying to cause a bloody debate, but really do not understand how any self-identified Libertarian can be OK with being a SLAVE.

Let me answer your question with a question. If religion is so anti liberty than why do communist regimes suppress religion? Also would you say that democratic-socialist Western Europe is more "free" than the United States? Guess which place is more religious? It's the ultimately reality that we answer to a Higher Power that stops the tyranny of the majority. If our rights derive from laws passed by a "democracy" than those rights can be taken away by a simple majority vote. If they depend on the constitution then they can be taken away by a simple majority vote plus a 5-4 decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. If they come from God then they can never be taken away, only temporarily suppressed.

[pcosmar]

[pcosmar]

[I]
I am not trying to cause a bloody debate, but really do not understand how any self-identified Libertarian can be OK with being a SLAVE.

You can come talk to me.
sit.relax..and I could try to explain.

I am in that very position. Voluntary servitude.
Yes,, I believe in Free Will.

and in Faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

come on by and talk.

[Sola_Fide]

Either your logic circuits are broken or your reading comprehension circuits are broken or both. At the end of the civil war the American Negros were set free but they had a choice. They could stay on the plantation and basically continue to be slaves. Some did.

Great, but who cares? When you are a slave to sin, you do what your master wants, and you can't but do what your desires want.

Slaves to sin can't do something good like want to seek God.

Jesus can't be any more clear.

[TER]

Hi HU, excellent questions! I will try to take them one at a time, and answer you with whatever little knowledge I have.

TER, I wanted to throw a question your way regarding the nature of the human will just to see if we are beginning from a similar premise. Do you see a perfect compatibility between human volition and God's eternal decree from creation? Or to put it in less lofty terms, do you acknowledge that human action and choice conforms to God's divine plans?

Really tough question I wish I didn't have to answer! Definitely above my pay grade! We know that God is Almighty and that nothing happens apart from His will. At the same time, we learn that Adam was made in His image and likeness, with freedom, responsibility and occupation. We know that God allows man to turn their back on Him and at the same time He desires all to come to Him and be saved. We understand that there is a plan of God, a divine blueprint and workshop, and that it will be fulfilled, and at the same time Christ says "How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Luke 13:34)

We also believe that God is good and just. Thus we know He would not allow someone to suffer for the sins of another. That is why the son shall not pay for this sins of the father, for this is unfair and unjust and not good. We know we will not be judged for sins we didn't commit or even the nature we were born it (for Christ, having raised from the dead, has destroyed bodily death and made resurrection possible for everyone, Saint and sinner). (BTW, the doctrine of Original Sin by St. Augustine is different from the teachings of the earlier Saints. We do not share in the guilt or responsibility of Adam's sin. That is why we are regenerated in baptism, and the original sin is destroyed. Nevertheless, we share in the sinful condition, because ontologically, we are born as children of Adam, but after baptism, our sins are our own and Adam's sins are his. Each will give an account before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and pointing our fingers at another (such as Adam) is exactly what Adam did which caused him to be fasted out of paradise).

So how our collective choices will ultimately conform with God's eternal will is a mystery. Human logic cannot apprehend it or understand it. Human words and terms cannot define it or reveal. It is something which can only be revealed in the heart of a person who has been illuminated by the Holy Spirit. And since I am not such a person, I look towards the teachings of those who are Saints. From how I am reading your question, they proclaim it a mystery. Perhaps in the end it will do something with the multiple universe theories which scientists are hypothesizing these days, I have no idea! The best I can personally do is bow down before the feet of God.

Likewise, would you agree that the sanctifying grace bestowed by The Holy Spirit restores the freedom of the will that is lost on account of sin? Sola approaches the question of sovereign grace from a Hard Determinist mindset, whereas I take more of a compatibilist view of man's will, both in a fallen state and a regenerate state, which is the position that I understand that the Scottish Reformers and the early Latin fathers of the church held.

The Orthodox Church does not teach that "freedom of will is lost on account of sin". This is the ripe fruits of Augustinian theology which the eastern Church never proclaimed. The Scots Confession took the extreme position that the Fall fully eradicated the divine image from human nature: “By this transgression, generally known as original sin, the image of God was utterly defaced in man, and he and his children became by nature hostile to God, slaves to Satan, and servants to sin.” This is not consistent with th theology of the early Church Fathers, which taught that man, though sick and dying, has not lost the image of God in them, which includes reason and free will. Yes, they are corrupted and unhealthy at times, but these attributes which make a human a human still exist, though powered over by death and sin.

[Sola_Fide]

Hi HU, excellent questions! I will try to take them one at a time, and answer you with whatever little knowledge I have.



Really tough question I wish I didn't have to answer! Definitely above my pay grade! We know that God is Almighty and that nothing happens apart from His will. At the same time, we learn that Adam was made in His image and likeness, with freedom, responsibility and occupation. We know that God allows man to turn their back on Him and at the same time He desires all to come to Him and be saved. We understand that there is a plan of God, a divine blueprint and workshop, and that it will be fulfilled, and at the same time Christ says "How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Luke 13:34)

We also believe that God is good and just. Thus we know He would not allow someone to suffer for the sins of another. That is why the son shall not pay for this sins of the father, for this is unfair and unjust and not good. We know we will not be judged for sins we didn't commit or even the nature we were born it (for Christ, having raised from the dead, has destroyed bodily death and made resurrection possible for everyone, Saint and sinner). (BTW, the doctrine of Original Sin by St. Augustine is different from the teachings of the earlier Saints. We do not share in the guilt or responsibility of Adam's sin. That is why we are regenerated in baptism, and the original sin is destroyed. Nevertheless, we share in the sinful condition, because ontologically, we are born as children of Adam, but after baptism, our sins are our own and Adam's sins are his. Each will give an account before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and pointing our fingers at neither (such as Adam) is exactly what Adam did which caused him to be fasted out of paradise).

So how our collective choices will ultimately conform with God's eternal will is a mystery. Human logic cannot apprehend it or understand it. Human words and terms cannot define it or reveal. It is something which can only be revealed in the heart of a person who has been illuminated by the Holy Spirit. And since I am not such a person, I look towards the teachings of those who are Saints. From how I am reading your question, they proclaim it a mystery. Perhaps in the end it will do something with the multiple universe theories which scientists are hypothesizing these days, I have no idea! The best I can personally do is bow down before the feet of God.




The Orthodox Church does not teach that "freedom of will is lost on account of sin". This is the ripe fruits of Augustinian theology which the eastern Church never proclaimed. The Scots Confession took the extreme position that the Fall fully eradicated the divine image from human nature: “By this transgression, generally known as original sin, the image of God was utterly defaced in man, and he and his children became by nature hostile to God, slaves to Satan, and servants to sin.” This is not consistent with th theology of the early Church Fathers, which taught that man, though sick and dying, has not lost the image of God in them, which includes reason and free will. Yes, they are corrupted and unhealthy at times, but these attributes which make a human a human still exist, though powered over by death and sin.

Ok HU.

In that post, TER denied total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistable grace.

How is that a Christian theology again?

[Natural Citizen]

total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistable grace.

All of which are philosophical conjecture. And anti-biblic.

How is that a Christian theology again?

Perhaps it's you to whom the question should be directed. You consistenly misrepresent the Bible. And for what? To create division among Christians? To establish some anti-biblic notion that some Christians are worthier than others? Heh. That's all I can gather from it.

[TER]

Ok HU.

In that post, TER denied total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, and irresistable grace.

How is that a Christian theology again?

The same way it was for 1500 years before the Reformers came and made new dogmas.

[Sola_Fide]

All of which are philosophical conjecture. And anti-biblic.



Perhaps it's you to whom the question should be directed. You consistenly misrepresent the Bible. And for what? To create division among Christians. That's all I can gather from it.

Biblic?

Weren't you defending atheism a few months ago?

Entertain the thought that you should sometimes sit back and watch the exchange instead of getting involved.

[Natural Citizen]

Biblic?

Weren't you defending atheism a few months ago?

Entertain the thought that you should sometimes sit back and watch the exchange instead of getting involved.

You've been measured and weighed consistently here, S_F. And your anti-biblic five points collapse under the weight of their own illegitimacy.

Again, you consistently misrepresent the Bible in your attempt to divide Christians. Most everyone here sees it. You serve Satan to create division among Christians. The problem with it is that you'll likely never come to know the error in your ways. You're too prideful in your ignorance and self-righteousness. You do not know God, my friend.

[TER]

Biblic?

Weren't you defending atheism a few months ago?

Entertain the thought that you should sometimes sit back and watch the exchange instead of getting involved.

In his short time as a faithful Christian, he seems to have learned much and should be commended.

[lilymc]

Yet another potentially interesting thread hijacked. : /

Don't encourage him, people.

[Natural Citizen]

Don't encourage him, people.

Why? It's the only way to demonstrate him for the misrepresenter of God and the Bible that he is.

[Sola_Fide]

In his short time as a faithful Christian, he seems to have learned much and should be commended.

No. He is still a functional atheist. In fact all theologies which deny the sovereignty of God in all things are functionally atheistic.

[Sola_Fide]

In his short time as a faithful Christian, he seems to have learned much and should be commended.

No. He is still a functional atheist. In fact all theologies which deny the sovereignty of God in all things are functionally atheistic.

[Natural Citizen]

No. He is still a functional atheist. In fact all theologies which deny the sovereignty of God in all things are functionally atheistic.

That's quite an assertion. It's very prideful. And arrogant. Obtuse. God has not told us whether or not there are conditions attached to election. So how is it that you come to know such things? Hm? How is it that you are of the position to judge other Christians? Did God appoint you to be the great divider and decider? Did He give you a secret note with all of the conditions of election on it? How is it that you've come to be the great decider of who is and isn't a Christian? How?

[Natural Citizen]

In his short time as a faithful Christian, he seems to have learned much and should be commended.

Thanks, TER. I'm doing the best I can, man. And I have a ways to go yet. But you know how it is. Everybody's a critic. Well...most anyway.

[lilymc]

"America is mostly a Democracy, but our God runs a Theocracy and your opinion is not important" ~Bill Winston (paraphrase)
"From this point onward, your opinion does not matter!" ~Bill Winston (exact quote)
^^^
FYI: This is a TV preacher, not my local family church.

I have recently been looking into the deep "rabbit-hole" of faith, and need to know something:

• How does anyone believe in individual freedom, while accepting "slavery" to religion?

Note: There is, at least one, actual Bible verse which specifically asks us to be SLAVES to God and/or Jesus.

My/your opinion doesn't matter?
Really?
I am not trying to cause a bloody debate, but really do not understand how any self-identified Libertarian can be OK with being a SLAVE.

I would have to see the bigger context, to say for sure what he was trying to get across... But based on a short clip I just watched (posted below) I think you have completely misunderstood.

I think he was simply saying that God = objective truth, and if our opinions conflict with what God says, then our opinion is false. Ultimately opinions don't matter, only truth does. You disagree with that? Even if you're a nonbeliever, if we for the sake of argument presuppose God exists, how can you dispute that God has the final say, that God is the source of objective truth?

Also, you did not simply paraphrase his quote, you completely changed it. (Unless he said that in another place, if so please cite your source.)

Here is what he did say:

"In the kingdom it is not a democracy, it is a theocracy, and it is one God, one opinion."

He was not talking about America. Again, unless he said that somewhere else. If so, please post the exact quote and where you found it.

[TER]

Thank you for clarifying that Lily! In the context which you describe after watching the video, it seems he is spot on in saying that in the Kingdom of Heaven, His will is supreme. Opinions have value and meaning only when they adhere to the good will of God.

[lilymc]

Why? It's the only way to demonstrate him for the misrepresenter of God and the Bible that he is.

I was talking about this thread. This thread is not about Calvinism or the "five points" or whatever he wants to call it.

I wasn't saying to not have a dialogue with him at all, just don't encourage hijacking of other threads. He has a long-standing habit of hijacking any and all threads to argue about Calvinism. It could be about under-water basket weaving, and he'd find a way to derail it into a debate on Calvinism.

[lilymc]

Thank you for clarifying that Lily! In the context which you describe after watching the video, it seems he is spot on in saying that in the Kingdom of Heaven, His will is supreme. Opinions have value and meaning when they adhere to the good will of God.

You're welcome. It's actually a good topic for some of our nonbelievers here to think about / discuss.

[TER]

You're welcome. It's actually a good topic for some of our nonbelievers here to think about / discuss.

If we look for the Reason for existence, we look to Christ, Who is the Reason (Logos) of God, and the Source of existence.

If we look for the Life and Light of existence, we come to Christ, Who is the Life and Light of all things.

If we look for what our goal is and who we are meant to be, we see Christ, Who is the Firstfruits of the New Man, the eternal Man, raised from the dead and ascended on high.

The best way for us to look, come, or see, is to come to ourselves, realize how far we are from such glory and peace, and repent of our sins which we have done against the world and against God, and live a new life, of mercy, love and forgiveness, obeying His commandments which lead to everlasting life.

When we align our opinions and our own wills with the will of Christ, and become healed of our passions and spiritual disease, then we become purified and illuminated. For it is the pure in heart who see God, according to our Lord. For it will be God Himself filling the heart as if tabernacled within the body of man, and heavenly and eternal things are revealed, and the fruits of the Spirit are experienced, and the joys and blessing are celebrated and revered.

These are some of the treasures of the Christian faith.

[lilymc]

If we look for the Reason for existence, we look to Christ, Who is the Reason (Logos) of God, and the Source of existence.

If we look for the Life and Light of existence, we come to Christ, Who is the Life and Light of all things.

If we look for what our goal is and who we are meant to be, we see Christ, Who is the Firstfruits of the New Man, the eternal Man, raised from the dead and ascended on high.

The best way for us to look, come, or see, is to come to ourselves, realize how far we are from such glory and peace, and repent of our sins which we have done against the world and against God, and live a new life, of mercy, love and forgiveness, obeying His commandments which lead to everlasting life.

When we align our opinions and our own wills with the will of Christ, and become healed of our passions and spiritual disease, then we become purified and illuminated. For it is the pure in heart who see God, according to our Lord. For it will be God Himself filling the heart as if tabernacled within the body of man, and heavenly and eternal things are revealed, and the fruits of the Spirit are experienced, and the joys and blessing are celebrated and revered.

These are some of the treasures of the Christian faith.

Amen. Eloquently stated.

Also, when we consider that God created us and knows us better than we know ourselves... I think that we can only be our true self when we come to God and allow Him to restore us and (like a diamond in the rough) refine us into the person He designed us to be. That's why I love reading what God says about our true identity. I did a blog post about that a few years ago, here.

[TER]

Amen. Eloquently stated.

Also, when we consider that God created us and knows us better than we know ourselves... I think that we can only be our true self when we come to God and allow Him to restore us and (like a diamond in the rough) refine us into the person He designed us to be. That's why I love reading what God says about our true identity. I did a blog post about that a few years ago, here.

Well said! We pray for His will to be done every time we say the Lord's Prayer. We should learn to live a life in such prayer, unceasingly, submitting to His holy will.

We do our part the best we can in life, carrying our cross and navigating through this journey, knowing that only through Him will we find true rest and fulfillment. We do the best we can with the soil and the seeds we have available, yet it is still God above who is the rain and the sun who will lead to life and good fruit.

When we submit to Him and give over ourselves to His holy will, we are strengthened by Christ, and 'can do all things' as St. Paul says.

It is through humility whereby we come to the knowledge of God.

[TER]

By the way lily, I loved the blog post which you linked to!