Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 61 to 90 of 90

Thread: Proportional speeding ticket fines

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    To Coin is to cast metal into a coin.
    coin
    koin

    noun
    1. a flat, typically round piece of metal with an official stamp, used as money.
    synonyms: penny, nickel, dime, quarter; More
    verb
    1. make (coins) by stamping metal.
    synonyms: mint, stamp, strike, cast, punch, die, mold, forge, make
    "dimes were coined"

    2. invent or devise (a new word or phrase).
    "he coined the term “desktop publishing.”"
    synonyms: invent, create, make up, conceive, originate, think up, dream up
    "he coined the term"



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    coin
    koin

    noun
    1. a flat, typically round piece of metal with an official stamp, used as money.
    synonyms: penny, nickel, dime, quarter; More
    verb
    1. make (coins) by stamping metal.
    synonyms: mint, stamp, strike, cast, punch, die, mold, forge, make
    "dimes were coined"

    2. invent or devise (a new word or phrase).
    "he coined the term “desktop publishing.”"
    synonyms: invent, create, make up, conceive, originate, think up, dream up
    "he coined the term"
    A metaphor is not legally operative.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    coin
    koin

    noun
    1. a flat, typically round piece of metal with an official stamp, used as money.
    synonyms: penny, nickel, dime, quarter; More
    verb
    1. make (coins) by stamping metal.
    synonyms: mint, stamp, strike, cast, punch, die, mold, forge, make
    "dimes were coined"

    2. invent or devise (a new word or phrase).
    "he coined the term “desktop publishing.”"
    synonyms: invent, create, make up, conceive, originate, think up, dream up
    "he coined the term"
    2. invent or devise (a new word or phrase)
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    FALSE the alternative is a sales tax/tariff, minimum intrusion, and the rich who buy more pay more.
    Sales taxes affect consumer choices by discouraging consumption. Specifically domestic consumption. Income taxes do not. As an econ dork, I prefer the tax scheme that influences/disrupts the market least.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.



  6. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Sales taxes affect consumer choices by discouraging consumption. Specifically domestic consumption. Income taxes do not. As an econ dork, I prefer the tax scheme that influences/disrupts the market least.
    All taxes discourage consumption, and if sales taxes do it more that might just be a good thing, people waste too much money and get into too much debt, this warps culture, the economy and politics in too many ways to count.
    And I would prefer the taxation method that gets the government's nose out of everybody's bank statements.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    All taxes discourage consumption
    No. Income taxes reduce consumption but do not discourage it. In economic terms, they reduce the quantity demanded but not the demand itself.

    Sales taxes encourage consumers to redistribute their spending to non-taxed uses, reshaping consumer demand in an artificial way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    if sales taxes do it more that might just be a good thing, people waste too much money and get into too much debt, this warps culture, the economy and politics in too many ways to count.
    I don't agree because I'm not a statist.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    I don't agree because I'm not a statist.
    Says the guy who wants big brother (The State) to stick his nose into my finances.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Says the guy who wants big brother (The State) to stick his nose into my finances.
    Says the guy who thinks that the federal government should decide what consumer spending is good and bad for 'muh culture' and use the power of the government to change society in the image that they think is correct.


    Next to that, reporting your income to the government is nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Says the guy who thinks that the federal government should decide what consumer spending is good and bad for 'muh culture' and use the power of the government to change society in the image that they think is correct.


    Next to that, reporting your income to the government is nothing.
    They don't do that with the income tax code?
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    They don't do that with the income tax code?
    They do it with all of the funky exemptions and loopholes to the income tax, but that's 'muh special interests' and not 'muh culture.'

    However, that's beside the point. What they actually do with the current, universally hated tax code and what I think they should do with the income tax are entirely different things. I don't think that the government should encourage or discourage market behavior via the tax code. You, on the other hand, directly said that the social engineering that the government currently does with the tax code is a good thing and should be continued, though with your goals and pet projects instead of the current ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    They do it with all of the funky exemptions and loopholes to the income tax, but that's 'muh special interests' and not 'muh culture.'

    However, that's beside the point. What they actually do with the current, universally hated tax code and what I think they should do with the income tax are entirely different things. I don't think that the government should encourage or discourage market behavior via the tax code. You, on the other hand, directly said that the social engineering that the government currently does with the tax code is a good thing and should be continued, though with your goals and pet projects instead of the current ones.
    No I said that it was a beneficial side effect. And government will try to encourage or discourage market behavior via the tax code, no matter what kind of tax is used.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    The big problem with that (besides the blackmail/bribe problem with all fines) is that the government has to know what your income is or what your total wealth is or both. Neither one is the government's business, this is actually one of the biggest reasons the income tax is evil.
    The income tax system is less intrusive than a fee system. In a fee-based system, the government would have to know everything about you and all of the government services that you consume. That would be an enormous amount of detail.

    For example, roads: The best possible way to charge people for road use would be to place a monitoring device in every car and track, in detail when, where, how, how far, etc. the person drives, along with how heavily loaded the vehicle is. That would be "fairest" but I don't think anyone would be willing to bear such an intrusion, and would be willing to bear a "less fair" tax system that was also less intrusive.
    I can't resist the temptation to point out that this is an excellent illustration of why "the best possible way to charge people for road use" is actually to fully privatize muh roads ...

    Acme Road Co. would just quote a schedule of prices. There would be no need for tracking devices or privacy invasions or etc.
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·



  15. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    FALSE the alternative is a sales tax/tariff, minimum intrusion, and the rich who buy more pay more.
    One thing I don't like about the sales tax is that it disproportionally affects retailers. But I'd probably still take it over a flat income tax.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    No.

    I said "as it's commonly used" because it seemed to me that you were saying that a different fine amount would be progressive. I was trying to make the comparison that if a percentage-based tax rate is not considered progressive, a percentage-based fine could also be considered not progressive. It's a little more complicated, as I've heard it argued that a person of a higher income is receiving different/more services from the government to explain why a percentage tax is as suitable as a fee-based tax. Obviously, with a fine there's no such service.
    That's a good point. A true non-progressive tax would be a flat amount, say $1000 that we all have to pay. A flat tax is really a compromise. It's still progressive in a way since some people pay more than others. I think a progressive tax may actually be worse than a progressive fine. A progressive fine is changing the penalties for breaking the law depending on the person. A progressive tax is actually changing the LAW depending on the person. That seems worse to me.

    As I've said before, the real flaw is the 1 man 1 vote democracy. It's a logical flaw to have a majority vote to steal from the minority. That's why in unchecked democracies you get tax rates of more than 50% on the most productive citizens, $100,000 speeding fines, antitrust laws, discrimination laws, etc.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    As I've said before, the real flaw is the 1 man 1 vote democracy. It's a logical flaw to have a majority vote to steal from the minority. That's why in unchecked democracies you get tax rates of more than 50% on the most productive citizens, $100,000 speeding fines, antitrust laws, discrimination laws, etc.
    When things go the other way, then the minority steals from the majority.

    The solution is limitation of government power to prevent such theft, not implementation of reforms that just hand the weapons of government to the people that we deem most fit to utilize them against their neighbors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Acme Road Co. would just quote a schedule of prices. There would be no need for tracking devices or privacy invasions or etc.
    Smart meters and vehicle-tracking devices for auto insurance purposes seem to be counterexamples to your theory.


    I can't envision a system through which Acme Road Co. could charge legitimate users and also prevent free riders on their road network without some level of tracking and privacy invasion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    When things go the other way, then the minority steals from the majority.
    If you only allow net taxpayers to vote the minority won't be able to steal from the majority because they'll lose their voting privilege. It's self correcting.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    The solution is limitation of government power to prevent such theft, not implementation of reforms that just hand the weapons of government to the people that we deem most fit to utilize them against their neighbors.
    How can you limit government power in a democracy where everyone can vote? It's impossible as far as I can tell. You can make rules but they'll eventually get eroded away by politicians that buy votes by stealing from the few to give to the many. You need to fundamentally change the election process to fix it.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    If you only allow net taxpayers to vote the minority won't be able to steal from the majority because they'll lose their voting privilege. It's self correcting.




    How can you limit government power in a democracy where everyone can vote? It's impossible as far as I can tell. You can make rules but they'll eventually get eroded away by politicians that buy votes by stealing from the few to give to the many. You need to fundamentally change the election process to fix it.
    Limiting voting is not a democracy. It becomes government by the elites for the elites.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    If you only allow net taxpayers to vote the minority won't be able to steal from the majority because they'll lose their voting privilege. It's self correcting.
    They'll steal in indirect ways. Contracts to their companies and friends and whatnot. See the Russian oligarchs for an example.


    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    How can you limit government power in a democracy where everyone can vote? It's impossible as far as I can tell. You can make rules but they'll eventually get eroded away by politicians that buy votes by stealing from the few to give to the many. You need to fundamentally change the election process to fix it.
    No matter who you give the power of the vote, it's possible for them to erode the protections built into the government over time. I don't see how it would be different if it were a majority or minority of the population. Arguably, a small minority would have an easier time of working together in that direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

  23. #80
    Posh and flim flam in this thread.

    You want to reduce overall taxation, the size and scope of government and possibly the very concept of income taxation?

    Eliminate the "temporary" WW2 measure of "incoming withholding" and employer "matching".

    Other than that, don't change a thing.

    Force Boobus to cut a check, for the full freight of FedGov taxation, every single month to Uncle Sucker.

    Oh, and while we're at it, pass a federal law banning the practice of escrow accounting to "bundle" mortgage and property tax payments.

    Force Boobus to cut a check every month to his local Liege Lords as well.

    Watch how fast this $#@! would change.

    Even idiot Kalifornians are up in arms over a relatively minor increase in gas taxes. Go figure, they vote, in overwhelming numbers, for liberal progressives, and then get upset when they do liberal progressive things.

    And the reason why is because they see it.



  24. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Posh and flim flam in this thread.

    You want to reduce overall taxation, the size and scope of government and possibly the very concept of income taxation?

    Eliminate the "temporary" WW2 measure of "incoming withholding" and employer "matching".

    Other than that, don't change a thing.

    Force Boobus to cut a check, for the full freight of FedGov taxation, every single month to Uncle Sucker.

    Oh, and while we're at it, pass a federal law banning the practice of escrow accounting to "bundle" mortgage and property tax payments.

    Force Boobus to cut a check every month to his local Liege Lords as well.

    Watch how fast this $#@! would change.

    Even idiot Kalifornians are up in arms over a relatively minor increase in gas taxes. Go figure, they vote, in overwhelming numbers, for liberal progressives, and then get upset when they do liberal progressive things.

    And the reason why is because they see it.
    I like that idea but it would only work if there was a flat tax. What is it? Half the population that doesn't pay any income tax?

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    They'll steal in indirect ways. Contracts to their companies and friends and whatnot. See the Russian oligarchs for an example.
    How do you know this? Does Russia only allow net taxpayers to vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    No matter who you give the power of the vote, it's possible for them to erode the protections built into the government over time. I don't see how it would be different if it were a majority or minority of the population. Arguably, a small minority would have an easier time of working together in that direction.
    Except that it WOULDN'T be a minority. The current minority of taxpayers would vote to spread the tax burden to the entire population and taxpayers would soon become the majority. The way it should be. And it's not just some random group we're talking about. It's taxpayers. People that are FORCED to give up their property. How can you give the guy who receives stolen goods that same voting power as the guy who gets the goods stolen from him?

    What's your idea? Or do you think "socialism", "class envy", "soaking the productive" are not a problem? In my opinion it's the number one problem in most countries, by far.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I like that idea but it would only work if there was a flat tax. What is it? Half the population that doesn't pay any income tax?
    Oh yes they do...they pay FICA and Medicaid taxes.

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Oh yes they do...they pay FICA and Medicaid taxes.
    That's true and I agree I like the idea, but I don't know if it will help lower the taxes on the most productive. It'll definitely lower taxes on the middle class. Look at the UK. I remember they were talking about switching to withholding maybe 10-15 years ago. So I'm assuming they've had to write a check and I they don't seem to be all that capitalistic to me.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    That's true and I agree I like the idea, but I don't know if it will help lower the taxes on the most productive. It'll definitely lower taxes on the middle class. Look at the UK. I remember they were talking about switching to withholding maybe 10-15 years ago. So I'm assuming they've had to write a check and I they don't seem to be all that capitalistic to me.
    They have withholding, they just don't call it withholding.

    They call it Pay As You Earn, also instituted during WW2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay-as-you-earn_tax

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    They have withholding, they just don't call it withholding.

    They call it Pay As You Earn, also instituted during WW2.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay-as-you-earn_tax
    Thanks, I don't know what the hell I was remembering.

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Madison320 View Post
    I was arguing with some friends who thought the proportional fines for speeding are a good idea. Their argument is that the penalty should "hurt" the same for everyone. My argument is that one of the benefits to working hard and accumulating wealth is that things DON'T hurt as much. Isn't that the point of hard work, savings and delayed gratification? As far as I'm concerned making cost proportional is just another disguised form of communism.
    woah,,

    this is a thread about the correct or incorrect manner of Highway Robbery

    It is theft. Period.
    It has been theft since roadways were co-opted and fines imposed.

    The roads are stolen.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Sales taxes affect consumer choices by discouraging consumption. Specifically domestic consumption. Income taxes do not. As an econ dork, I prefer the tax scheme that influences/disrupts the market least.
    Isn't a sale tax the least intrusive tax?

    Income taxes discourage production. A consumption tax discourages consumption. If you are going to discourage one or the other discouraging consumption would be preferable. An income tax is entirely bad. A sales tax might shift behavior toward investment over consumption which offset the negative effects of the tax.



  33. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Isn't a sale tax the least intrusive tax?

    Income taxes discourage production. A consumption tax discourages consumption. If you are going to discourage one or the other discouraging consumption would be preferable. An income tax is entirely bad. A sales tax might shift behavior toward investment over consumption which offset the negative effects of the tax.
    And you get Uncle Sam's nose out of everybody's finances.
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Isn't a sale tax the least intrusive tax?
    Depends on how you define intrusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    Income taxes discourage production. A consumption tax discourages consumption.
    Discouraging production is the same as discouraging consumption. Also, I'm skeptical that a flat percentage tax would be as discouraging as a progressive tax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    If you are going to discourage one or the other discouraging consumption would be preferable. An income tax is entirely bad. A sales tax might shift behavior toward investment over consumption which offset the negative effects of the tax.
    The income tax would affect all things equally, hampering the economy, but in an equal manner across all sectors of the economy, favoring none. As you begin to point out, the consumption tax would disproportionately only affect certain things, favoring the financial sector, as well as all of the initial and intermediate stages of industry (unless it's a VAT), and potentially parts of the services sector such as education, depending on how and to what the sales tax is applied.

    If you asked which would be 'less intrusive' to my ability to run, I would choose a ten pound weight on each leg over a twenty pound weight on just one leg.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Pinochet is the model
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Liberty preserving authoritarianism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Enforced internal open borders was one of the worst elements of the Constitution.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 05-21-2014, 11:58 AM
  2. Police don’t have to witness speeding to issue a speeding ticket
    By aGameOfThrones in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 02-11-2014, 10:05 PM
  3. How to Beat a Photo-Enforced Speeding Ticket (or Red Light Ticket)
    By Anti Federalist in forum Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-16-2013, 10:41 AM
  4. My son just got a speeding ticket.
    By kathy88 in forum Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 01-23-2013, 03:15 PM
  5. So I got a speeding ticket...
    By DamianTV in forum Individual Rights Violations: Case Studies
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 12-05-2008, 08:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •