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Thread: How many of you understand the USA just elected a (potentially) brutal dictator?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    Anyone who looks to some third party to save them from tyranny betrays that they were never a libertarian to begin with.

    Just as I had called out, appropriately, and in a timely manner.
    Was that before you went full, screeching melt down mode? Or after?



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  3. #122

    Thanks to Obama and his supporters

    The Intercept describes this well, thanks to Obama and his supporters:

    [Trump will] control an unaccountable drone program, and the prison at Guantanamo Bay. His FBI, including a network of 15,000 paid informants, already has a record of spying on mosques and activists, and his NSA’s surveillance empire is ubiquitous and governed by arcane rules, most of which remain secret. He will inherit bombing campaigns in seven Muslim countries, the de facto ability to declare war unilaterally, and a massive nuclear arsenal …

    Democrats who defended these powers under President Obama may suddenly be having second thoughts as the White House gets handed over …

    The Democrats went silent on executive overreach when Obama was elected …

    When the New York Times revealed Bush’s warrantless wiretapping program in 2005, 60 percent of registered Democrats thought the program was “unacceptable.” But after NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden revealed a dramatically larger surveillance apparatus in 2013, a 61 percent of Democrats said the opposite …

    To make matters worse, the Obama administration has convinced courts that citizens cannot challenge the legality of NSA programs until they can prove they are under surveillance. … [G]overnment secrecy makes that generally impossible …

    The Obama administration has also convinced courts that they have no role to play in reviewing the legality of drone strikes – even when it involves killing a U.S. citizen. …

    Obama has continued the Presidential tradition of going to war without Congress …

    Trump will inherit a Justice Department that has waged an unprecedented war on press freedom. Rather than shut down the Bush-era office that prosecuted leaks to the press, Obama made it his own, and has prosecuted more than twice as many people under the Espionage Act … than all of his predecessors combined. …

    President Obama has spent much of his time as commander in chief expanding his own military power, while convincing courts not to limit his detention, surveillance, and assassination capabilities. …
    "

    https://theintercept.com/2016/11/11/...-thanks-obama/

    They are not against dictatorial powers. They have expanded dictatorial powers far beyond even Bush II's era, and that was horrendous enough. They just want “our guy” to have them. When your system depends upon having the “right” person(s) in power, you have a failed system.

    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Every tool has the potential for misuse and abuse.

    The Office of the President of the United States is a tool. Not the person, but the power that the position offers. What determines if that tool will be misused is the person that wields that power.
    "In vain do you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing, the Thing itself is the Abuse!"
    -- Edmund Burke
    The Bastiat Collection · FREE PDF · FREE EPUB · PAPER
    Frédéric Bastiat (1801-1850)

    • "When law and morality are in contradiction to each other, the citizen finds himself in the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense, or of losing his respect for the law."
      -- The Law (p. 54)
    • "Government is that great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
      -- Government (p. 99)
    • "[W]ar is always begun in the interest of the few, and at the expense of the many."
      -- Economic Sophisms - Second Series (p. 312)
    • "There are two principles that can never be reconciled - Liberty and Constraint."
      -- Harmonies of Political Economy - Book One (p. 447)

    · tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito ·

  5. #124
    he's pro 2A = not a brutal dictator.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Lookie sweet-pea I'm not the one getting my knickers in a twist over a politician runnin' his mouth..

    How about you take your "irrational" and shove it right up your ass...

    My postings about Obama are still here and unedited, go have a read, he was afforded the same wait-n-see attitude I'm giving Trump....

    Rational behavior isn't getting ones self all aflutter over hyperbole, take a breath, calm down and then try really hard to sound logical when you post an opinion...Or live up to "superfluous" in the emotional department.

    Even if Trump is Hitler incarnate what could you..............Or I, actually do?

    I'll be the first to condemn actions that I disagree with, but the guy isn't even in office yet.
    So that's a yes. You really did give Obama that same irrational benefit of the doubt.

    I wonder if it's possible to search the archives that far back and see if that's the case. I'll take your word for it, but I'm skeptical.

    And while that kind of credulity of politicians may be your M.O. it's not mine. I think the best way to treat them is as guilty until proven innocent.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by newbitech View Post
    he's pro 2A = not a brutal dictator.
    You know Trump is ardently anti-2nd Amendment. Right?

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    You know Trump is ardently anti-2nd Amendment. Right?
    stereo positions

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by newbitech View Post
    he's pro 2A = not a brutal dictator.
    http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016/...hts-stop-frisk
    “You know, [the police are] proactive and if they see a person possibly with a gun or they think may have a gun, they will see the person and they’ll look and they’ll take the gun away,”
    Nationwide "Stop and Frisk".
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  11. #129
    It's like if you had 1000 prisons & 1 million inmates & Trump is only advocating enhanced stuff with a dozen of them in 1 prison. That's not the civil rights issue.
    BOWLING GREEN, Kentucky – Washington liberals are trying to push through the so-called DREAM Act, which creates an official path to Democrat voter registration for 2 million college-age illegal immigrants.
    Rand Paul 2010

    Booker T. Washington:
    Cast it down among the eight millions of Negroes whose habits you know, whose
    fidelity and love you have tested in days when to have proved treacherous meant the ruin of your firesides.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    So that's a yes. You really did give Obama that same irrational benefit of the doubt.

    I wonder if it's possible to search the archives that far back and see if that's the case. I'll take your word for it, but I'm skeptical.

    And while that kind of credulity of politicians may be your M.O. it's not mine. I think the best way to treat them is as guilty until proven innocent.
    Maybe you'd be so kind as to point to the credulity you claim I have exhibited?

    I'll wait........

    Just like I wait to see what a politician does instead of getting all wound up over what he says...

    Feel free to stuff that second "irrational" right beside the first Mr. Sane-n-Sensible.

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Maybe you'd be so kind as to point to the credulity you claim I have exhibited?
    Right in the post I was replying to.

    That's the point of using these reply-with-quote boxes.

  14. #132
    When the New York Times revealed Bush’s warrantless wiretapping program in 2005, 60 percent of registered Democrats thought the program was “unacceptable.” But after NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden revealed a dramatically larger surveillance apparatus in 2013, a 61 percent of Democrats said the opposite …
    And this is why we can't have nice things.

  15. #133
    When the New York Times revealed Bush’s warrantless wiretapping program in 2005, 60 percent of registered Democrats thought the program was “unacceptable.” But after NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden revealed a dramatically larger surveillance apparatus in 2013, a 61 percent of Democrats said the opposite …
    And this is why we can't have nice things.

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    You know Trump is ardently anti-2nd Amendment. Right?
    “ardently anti 2nd Amendment”

    Not at all from his platform and specific written policy positions on the Second Amendment. It’s actually very good.

    Campaign platform: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policie...cond-amendment

    • Defend the Second Amendment of our Constitution. The right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed upon. Period.
    • Nominate United States Supreme Court justices that will abide by the rule of law and the Constitution of the United States that includes upholding the Second Amendment.
    • Empower law-abiding gun owners to defend themselves. Law enforcement does a tremendous job, but they can’t be everywhere all of the time.
    • Defend the rights of law-abiding gun owners:
      • Military bases and recruiting centers - to have a strong military, we need to allow them to defend themselves
      • National right to carry – should be legal in all 50 states
      • Background checks - we need to fix the system we have and make it work as intended. What we don’t need to do is expand a broken system.
      • Gun and magazine bans - the government has no business dictating what types of firearms good, honest people are allowed to own


    From his written policy position on the Second Amendment: https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/Seco...ent_Rights.pdf

    “The Second Amendment guarantees a fundamental right that belongs to all law-abiding Americans. The Constitution doesn’t create that right – it ensures that the government can’t take it away. Our Founding Fathers knew, and our Supreme Court has upheld, that the Second Amendment’s purpose is to guarantee our right to defend ourselves and our families. This is about self-defense, plain and simple. It’s been said that the Second Amendment is America’s first freedom. That’s because the Right to Keep and Bear Arms protects all our other rights. We are the only country in the world that has a Second Amendment. Protecting that freedom is imperative. …

    Here’s another important way to fight crime – empower law-abiding gun owners to defend themselves. … Our personal protection is ultimately up to us. That’s why I’m a gun owner, that’s why I have a concealed carry permit, and that’s why tens of millions of Americans have concealed carry permits as well. It’s just common sense. …

    GUN AND MAGAZINE BANS. Gun and magazine bans are a total failure. That’s been proven every time it’s been tried. Opponents of gun rights try to come up with scary sounding phrases like “assault weapons”, “military-style weapons” and “high capacity magazines” to confuse people. … Law-abiding people should be allowed to own the firearm of their choice. The government has no business dictating what types of firearms good, honest people are allowed to own.

    NATIONAL RIGHT TO CARRY. The right of self-defense doesn’t stop at the end of your driveway. That’s why I have a concealed carry permit and why tens of millions of Americans do too. That permit should be valid in all 50 states. A driver’s license works in every state, so it’s common sense that a concealed carry permit should work in every state. If we can do that for driving – which is a privilege, not a right – then surely we can do that for concealed carry, which is a right, not a privilege.

    MILITARY BASES AND RECRUITING CENTERS. Banning our military from carrying firearms on bases and at recruiting centers is ridiculous. We train our military how to safely and responsibly use firearms, but our current policies leave them defenseless. … “
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    “ardently anti 2nd Amendment”

    Not at all from his platform and specific written policy positions on the Second Amendment. It’s actually very good.
    Did you neglect to copy the part about banning guns for anyone on the no-fly list? Or is it Trump who neglected to admit it on his website?

    What about the stop and frisk part, where according to Trump's own words this very campaign, he wants the police literally to take guns from people.

    And what's this about a national concealed carry permit? Sounds like a good way for him to keep track of gun owners in a national database, which seems like just the kind of thing Trump would love. I'm guessing that a gun registry would be included. Notice how something that's not mentioned anywhere in what you say is "actually very good" is anything repudiating gun registration.

    Another thing that's missing is any mention of the so-called gun show loophole. That's strange. That's the biggest 2nd-Amendment issue out there right now. That's the top of the gun grabbers' agendas. Is Trump for closing that loophole like they want? Or is he against doing that? And if he is against it, then why in the world wouldn't he want to say so when he's listing off the reasons gun rights supporters should like him? The truth is, you and I and everyone here already knows the answer. The answer is yes, he does want to close the loophole. He wants to make it impossible for a gun to change hands without that information being passed on to the federal government so that they can keep a careful and exhaustive record of who owns what. That kind of surveillance-state mentality is at the very center of everything Trump means when he talks about America being great.

    "Actually very good?" Hardly.

    And then there's this:
    Background checks - we need to fix the system we have and make it work as intended. What we don’t need to do is expand a broken system.
    Just what does he want there when he says "work as intended"? And why is he so afraid to say whatever it is?

    So thanks for helping prove the case that yes, he is ardently anti-2nd Amendment.

    In fact, I predict that because of how he pretends to support the 2nd Amendment (take a second to look at his history on this issue to see how ridiculous that is), and because he has the support of the NRA and so many naive gun right's supporters, he will be able to succeed where Obama failed at getting more restrictive gun laws passed, especially when it comes to laws involving federal collection of information on gun owners and the weapons they own.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 11-12-2016 at 10:14 PM.

  18. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Did you neglect to copy the part about banning guns for anyone on the no-fly list? Or is it Trump who neglected to admit it on his website?

    What about the stop and frisk part, where according to Trump's own words this very campaign, he wants the police literally to take guns from people.

    And what's this about a national concealed carry permit? Sounds like a good way for him to keep track of gun owners in a national database, which seems like just the kind of thing Trump would love. I'm guessing that a gun registry would be included. Notice how something that's not mentioned anywhere in what you say is "actually very good" is anything repudiating gun registration.

    Another thing that's missing is any mention of the so-called gun show loophole. That's strange. That's the biggest 2nd-Amendment issue out there right now. That's the top of the gun grabbers' agendas. Is Trump for closing that loophole like they want? Or is he against doing that? And if he is against it, then why in the world wouldn't he want to say so when he's listing off the reasons gun rights supporters should like him?

    "Actually very good?" Hardly.

    And then there's this:

    Just what does he want there when he says "work as intended"? And why is he so afraid to say whatever it is?

    So thanks for helping prove the case that yes, he is ardently anti-2nd Amendment.

    In fact, I predict that because of how he pretends to support the 2nd Amendment (take a second to look at his history on this issue to see how ridiculous that is), and because he has the support of the NRA and so many naive gun right's supporters, he will be able to succeed where Obama failed at getting more restrictive gun laws passed, especially when it comes to laws involving federal collection of information on gun owners and the weapons they own.
    You don't think the 2nd amendment is for revolution against the government when it becomes too tyrannical, do you? Do you think propaganda agents would also be lined up and shot by rebels? Or do you think they would stop at loyalist soldiers only?



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    You don't think the 2nd amendment is for revolution against the government when it becomes too tyrannical, do you?
    Yes, I do. What's wrong with that?

  21. #138
    I keep noticing more things in that 2nd Amendment position summary. Notice this part:

    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    The government has no business dictating what types of firearms good, honest people are allowed to own.
    Interesting that he includes the qualifiers "good, honest." Let me guess who gets to decide who counts as good and honest. You, Donald?

    Yeah. And if you decide we're not good and honest, you'll just put us on that list, with no due process, and voila, no guns for us.

  22. #139
    @AZJoe, just what were you talking about when you said that stuff was actually very good?

    I'm not seeing whatever it was you were seeing.

    All I see is the anti-gun screed of somebody who is ardently anti-2nd Amendment, dressed up in NRA fluff.

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Did you neglect to copy the part about banning guns for anyone on the no-fly list? ... What about the stop and frisk part,

    And what's this about a national concealed carry permit?

    Here is the second amendment platform: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policie...cond-amendment
    And the rest of the platform: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policie...cond-amendment

    Superfluous neglected to quote from the parts of the platform he "refers" to. Maybe because it isn't in there.

    Yes in Trump's speaking comments he has been bad about no fly and stop and frisk. That is an issue with interpretation of due process however, not an interpretation of the Second Amendment. Due process issues overlap all rights (speech, travel, etc.). His off the cuff commentary has been very bad on due process no doubt.

    Superfluous also makes up a false issue of "national concealed carry permit". That is not part of the platform. The platform refers to full faith and credit reciprocity recognition of state concealed carry permits just like driver's licenses. There is nothing about a "national concealed carry permit.

    There are valid criticism to focus on with Trump, but superfluously making things up does not serve them. Trump's platform is not "ardently anti-Second Amendment" in the least. It beats all the democrats and all but a select handful of republicrats on capital hill.
    Last edited by AZJoe; 11-12-2016 at 10:46 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    @AZJoe, just what were you talking about when you said that stuff was actually very good? I'm not seeing whatever it was you were seeing..
    Well, try reading:

    • Recognizing the individual right to self-defense with firearms
    • Ending federal gun and magazine bans, such as “assault weapons”, and “high capacity” magazines
    • Insuring any Supreme Court nominees recognize the individual right to keep and bear arms
    • Insuring full faith and credit recognition of state concealed carry permits.
    • Recognizing the rights of indiviual military personnel to keep and bear personal weapons on military bases and recruitment centers
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Well, try reading:

    • Recognizing the individual right to self-defense with firearms
    • Ending federal gun and magazine bans, such as “assault weapons”, and “high capacity” magazines
    • Insuring any Supreme Court nominees recognize the individual right to keep and bear arms
    • Insuring full faith and credit recognition of state concealed carry permits.
    • Recognizing the rights of indiviual military personnel to keep and bear personal weapons on military bases and recruitment centers
    Obviously he doesn't recognize the individual right with self-defense with firearms, or else he wouldn't think you needed a permit for it.

    The other points you mentioned. Seriously? Those things are your idea of "actually very good"?

    And again, the most incriminating parts are all the things he doesn't address.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 11-12-2016 at 10:49 PM.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Here is the second amendment platform: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policie...cond-amendment
    And the rest of the platform: https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policie...cond-amendment

    Superfluous neglected to quote from the parts of the platform he "refers" to. Maybe because it isn't in there.

    Right. So it isn't there.

    Now why not? If he's so great, why does he need to hide his positions from us?

    If that's supposed to be the webpage where he provides his position on the Second Amendment, why does he leave off so much of what one can find actually to be his position by digging around elsewhere?

    And perhaps a better question, why are you so trusting of his campaign propaganda in the face of so much evidence that shows that when he claims to support the right to keep and bear arms, he clearly either has no idea what that means or is lying?

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Superfluous also makes up a false issue of "national concealed carry permit". That is not part of the platform. The platform refers to full faith and credit reciprocity recognition of state concealed carry permits just like driver's licenses. There is nothing about a "national concealed carry permit.
    I just did a search of both of your links for the word "faith," and it never once appears in either. So this is a lie.

    Nor can I see anything suggesting that you're right about this in the words he uses.

    Reciprocity of state licenses would go against his whole agenda here. He's obviously not doing it because he supports the 2nd Amendment. You have to ask yourself what the catch is. What is it he's really after? Once you do that it becomes obvious what he's up to.

    Incidentally, just like with Real ID, these permits could be run on the state level and still be connected to a federal database.
    Last edited by Superfluous Man; 11-12-2016 at 10:55 PM.



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  29. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    The other points you mentioned. Seriously? Those things are your idea of "actually very good"?
    Yes. I think most people here can agree he is strongly second amendment.
    Good enough for me. Better than good enough.

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    Yes in Trump's speaking comments he has been bad about no fly and stop and frisk. That is an issue with interpretation of due process however, not an interpretation of the Second Amendment.
    Here we have the real answer to my question.

    The reason you think his position seems "actually very good" is that you yourself don't support the right to keep and bear arms.

  31. #147
    Remember this?
    Trump Would Resume Sales of Militarized Gear to Police
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...Gear-to-Police
    No one here wanted to be the Billionaire.

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Yes. I think most people here can agree he is strongly second amendment.
    Good enough for me. Better than good enough.
    The problem is that good enough for you is really terrible.

  33. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superfluous Man View Post
    Right. So it isn't there.

    Now why not? If he's so great, why does he need to hide his positions from us?

    If that's supposed to be the webpage where he provides his position on the Second Amendment, why does he leave off so much of what one can find actually to be his position by digging around elsewhere?

    And perhaps a better question, why are you so trusting of his campaign propaganda in the face of so much evidence that shows that when he claims to support the right to keep and bear arms, he clearly either has no idea what that means or is lying?
    why do you ask so many rhetorical questions?
    Is there some reason you can't just make statements?
    Has it ever occurred to you asking rhetorical question after rhetorical question is really dishonest and tiring?
    Do you even have any positions or objections, or are you just trying to waste everyone's time?

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJoe View Post
    There are valid criticism to focus on with Trump, but superfluously making things up does not serve them. Trump's platform is not "ardently anti-Second Amendment" in the least. It beats all the democrats and all but a select handful of republicrats on capital hill.
    Using your own sources, we can safely say that very few Republicans are as terrible as Trump on the 2nd Amendment. He would fit right in with the average NRA-endorsed Democrat.

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