Let us thank ICE Officers for helping to rid our cities of criminal illegal entrants

[dean.engelhardt]

Enlighten me.
But if you are saying that there is no liberty without wide open borders that allow the enemies of liberty in don't bother.

Liberty cannot be obtained without walls and strong law enforcement presences checking the legality of each person with in walls.

Wait...that is not liberty, that is prison.

[Swordsmyth]

Liberty cannot be obtained without walls and strong law enforcement presences checking the legality of each person with in walls.

Wait...that is not liberty, that is prison.

You don't need "strong law enforcement presences checking the legality of each person with in walls" if you properly control who is let through the gates in the first place.

[H_H]

The Articles of Confederation was the first written constitution of the United States. Stemming from wartime urgency, its progress was slowed by fears of central authority and extensive land claims by states before was it was ratified on March 1, 1781.

Under these articles, the states remained sovereign and independent, with Congress serving as the last resort on appeal of disputes. Congress was also given the authority to make treaties and alliances, maintain armed forces and coin money. However, the central government lacked the ability to levy taxes and regulate commerce, issues that led to the Constitutional Convention in 1787 for the creation of new federal laws.

Umm, is your brain on Jimmy Wales' server?

And here I was congratulating you for putting yourself out there.

Ahh well. We work with what we have.

Have you ever asked yourself, Ender, to what degree George Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had the "ability to levy taxes and regulate commerce" in the American colonies?

[phill4paul]

Incorrect in my opinion, even under the Articles taxes were higher and government more intrusive than before the revolution, but thank you for not being afraid to put yourself out there!

For the powers of government which where thrown off I refer you to the Declaration of Independence.

[Ender]

Umm, is your brain on Jimmy Wales' server?

And here I was congratulating you for putting yourself out there.

Ahh well. We work with what we have.

Have you ever asked yourself, Ender, to what degree George Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had the "ability to levy taxes and regulate commerce" in the American colonies?

ID. 10. t

The Central government under the Articles had no power to tax. Only the separate states could tax.

Only the states, not Congress, had the authority to impose taxes and raise revenue. Accordingly, Congress had to request funds from the separate states.

Article VIII: these funds “shall be supplied by the several States in proportion to the value of all land within each State.”

How that money was raised, within each state, was up to the state legislatures.

[Ender]

Liberty cannot be obtained without walls and strong law enforcement presences checking the legality of each person with in walls.

Wait...that is not liberty, that is prison.

Exactly.

[H_H]

For the powers of government which where thrown off I refer you to the Declaration of Independence.

Dude, were they thrown off?

Like are you all, sure and junk?

[H_H]

ID. 10. t

The Central government under the Articles had no power to tax. Only the separate states could tax.

Only the states, not Congress, had the authority to impose taxes and raise revenue. Accordingly, Congress had to request funds from the separate states.

Article VIII: these funds “shall be supplied by the several States in proportion to the value of all land within each State.”

How that money was raised, within each state, was up to the state legislatures.

Mine dude, you're just, like, pasting words. Words of junk that, like, I already know and junk.

You are not obligated to be the reproductive organ of dry congloterations of words. They can't reproduce themselves across the internet, it's true. And that's sad for them. But that doesn't mean you have to take on the task of doing it for them. That does not have to be your life. You can say No.

[Ender]

Mine dude, you're just, like, pasting words. Words of junk that, like, I already know and junk.

You are not obligated to be the reproductive organ of dry congloterations of words. They can't reproduce themselves across the internet, it's true. And that's sad for them. But that doesn't mean you have to take on the task of doing it for them. That does not have to be your life. You can say No.

Helmuth- take your junk elsewhere.

[H_H]

Helmuth- take your junk elsewhere.

Where?

I was just trying to have a real conversation. Basically, I can respect your point of view, I just consider it to be (slightly) misinformed. Here's an interesting exercise:

Find the typical tax levy for a Massachusetts farmer in 1760. Then find the typical tax levy for that same farmer in 1787.

You will not do this. But, hazard a guess. What do you think you would find, Ender?

[Ender]

Where?

I was just trying to have a real conversation. Basically, I can respect your point of view, I just consider it to be (slightly) misinformed. Here's an interesting exercise:

Find the typical tax levy for a Massachusetts farmer in 1760. Then find the typical tax levy for that same farmer in 1787.

You will not do this. But, hazard a guess. What do you think you would find, Ender?

Your talking of a state problem & one that was about the financial recession & people not being paid after the Revolution, that caused Shay's Rebellion. This has nothing to do with Federal Gov taxes.

[Ender]

You don't need "strong law enforcement presences checking the legality of each person with in walls" if you properly control who is let through the gates in the first place.

So much for:

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

[Swordsmyth]

So much for:

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

Which was always progressive propaganda.

[Ender]

Which was always progressive propaganda.

Maybe you should redevelop the Know-Nothings.

The refugees seeking haven in America were poor and disease-ridden. They threatened to take jobs away from Americans and strain welfare budgets. They practiced an alien religion and pledged allegiance to a foreign leader. They were bringing with them crime. They were accused of being rapists.

And, worst of all, these undesirables were Irish.

The discrimination faced by the famine refugees was not subtle or insidious. It was right there in black and white, in newspaper classified advertisements that blared “No Irish Need Apply.”

The image of the simian Irishman, imported from Victorian England, was given new life by the pens of illustrators such as Thomas Nast that dripped with prejudice as they sketched Celtic ape-men with sloping foreheads and monstrous appearances.

In 1849, a clandestine fraternal society of native-born Protestant men called the Order of the Star Spangled Banner formed in New York. Bound by sacred oaths and secret passwords, its members wanted a return to the America they once knew, a land of “Temperance, Liberty and Protestantism.” Similar secret societies with menacing names like the Black Snakes and Rough and Readies sprouted across the country.

Within a few years, these societies coalesced around the anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant American Party, whose members were called the “Know-Nothings” because they claimed to “know nothing” when questioned about their politics.

Party members vowed to elect only native-born citizens—but only if they weren’t Roman Catholic. “Know-Nothings believed that Protestantism defined American society. From this flowed their fundamental belief that Catholicism was incompatible with basic American values,” writes Jay P. Dolan in “The Irish Americans: A History.”

[Swordsmyth]

Maybe you should redevelop the Know-Nothings.

Sorry but I want some immigration and the limits I want have nothing to do with race, culture is what is important.

[FvS]

[Danke]

So much for:

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

The only problem is the gas tank is full. We don't want to have to be taxed ever more to support this ideal.

[FvS]

Replace the population of Japan with Mexicans. Does Japan stay the same? Obviously not, it would look more like Mexico. Increase the percentage of Mexicans in the U.S. Does the U.S. stay the same? Obviously not, it will look more like Mexico. Should libertarians want the U.S. to become more like Mexico? Why the hell would any sane person want that? Also, how does letting in millions of Democrat voters help the libertarian movement? Do you think Democrats are for open borders because they care about liberty!?

[The Rebel Poet]

Hey, somebody had to do it.

#1 I'm not going to 'thank' any government functionary for anything, ever.

WTF is wrong with you?

Alphabet agencies are the enemy of freedom, there's not one of the $#@!s employed by them who is worthy of simple politeness let alone 'thanks'.

Thank a tick next time one burrows into the very underside of your nut-sack, at least they're industrious and accept full responsibility for their actions.

Good God man.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tod evans again.

This post can't be +repped enough. We seem to have a severe defficiency of simple sanity like this around here nowadays. What the hell is wrong with people on this board lately?

Thank YOU, tod evans. Thank YOU.

YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

Thank you for some sanity!

Covered.

Thank heavens we still have a few liberty lovers left here!

lol brainless authoritarians. At least there is still some pushback here against you cretins

... and......................... covered.

Covered with +rep for all.

[johnwk]

You don't need "strong law enforcement presences checking the legality of each person with in walls" if you properly control who is let through the gates in the first place.

Don't offer common sense to anarchists, it plays no part in their decision making when it comes to immigration. Aside from that, let us take a look at the clear thinking of one of our forefathers stated during our nations first rule on naturalization.

Mr. BURKE thought it of importance to fill the country with useful men, such as farmers, mechanics, and manufacturers, and, therefore, would hold out every encouragement to them to emigrate to America. This class he would receive on liberal terms; and he was satisfied there would be room enough for them, and for their posterity, for five hundred years to come. There was another class of men, whom he did not think useful, and he did not care what impediments were thrown in their way; such as your European merchants, and factors of merchants, who come with a view of remaining so long as will enable them to acquire a fortune, and then they will leave the country, and carry off all their property with them. These people injure us more than they do us good, and, except in this last sentiment, I can compare them to nothing but leeches. They stick to us until they get their fill of our best blood, and then they fall off and leave us. I look upon the privilege of an American citizen to be an honorable one, and it ought not to be thrown away upon such people. There is another class also that I would interdict, that is, the convicts and criminals which they pour out of British jails. I wish sincerely some mode could be adopted to prevent the importation of such; but that, perhaps, is not in our power; the introduction of them ought to be considered as a high misdemeanor. ____RULE OF NATURALIZATION, FEB. 3RD, 1790


JWK



There is no better way to weaken, destroy and subjugate a prosperous and freedom loving country than by importing the world’s poverty stricken populations into that country and making the country’s existing citizens tax-slaves to support the economic needs of such an invasion.

[johnwk]

So much for:

Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door.

I see the social democrats mantra has once again found its way into a discussion about illegal immigration.


Just for the record, Emma Lazarus, who wrote the words which appears on the Statute of Liberty was a well-known socialist, and the “poem” which she wrote was suggested to be used to raise funds to build the statue’s pedestal.

Additionally, immigrants coming to America who passed the statute on their way to Elis Island were not granted entry into the United States for a number of reasons. One reason to be rejected was the likelihood of becoming a ward of the state and a public charge.


JWK




Our civil rights ought not be based upon the perverted desires of sexual deviants who now impinge upon the inalienable right of mankind being free to mutually agree in their contracts and associations.

[Ender]

I see the social democrats mantra has once again found its way into a discussion about illegal immigration.


Just for the record, Emma Lazarus, who wrote the words which appears on the Statute of Liberty was a well-known socialist, and the “poem” which she wrote was suggested to be used to raise funds to build the statue’s pedestal.

Additionally, immigrants coming to America who passed the statute on their way to Elis Island were not granted entry into the United States for a number of reasons. One reason to be rejected was the likelihood of becoming a ward of the state and a public charge.


JWK




Our civil rights ought not be based upon the perverted desires of sexual deviants who now impinge upon the inalienable right of mankind being free to mutually agree in their contracts and associations.

And, just for the record, socialist minister Francis J. Bellamy wrote the Pledge of Allegiance in the 1890s in an effort to paper over the post-Civil War divisions; to accompany it, he devised the "Bellamy Salute": "raise your right hand, flip your palm down, point it toward the flag in a salute and recite the words."

Fifty years later, Americans switched to holding their hands over their hearts, a gesture that was formally legislated in the US Flag Code in 1942, as Americans were struck with the hipster's horror of having their OG style ripped off by crass newcomers (Hitler, Mussolini, et al).

[H_H]

Your talking of a state problem & one that was about the financial recession & people not being paid after the Revolution, that caused Shay's Rebellion. This has nothing to do with Federal Gov taxes.

Well great. Just to be clear:

You are claiming the American Revolution was a case of a revolution which decreased government.

[You are also claiming the War of Yankee Aggression was such a case, but by this you (presumably; filling in lots of gaps here) are leaving the realm of the historical, in which the 'revolution' (I'd contest this categorization) failed, and the result was significantly more government. I will grant you that in Turtledove novels, the WoYA may have resulted in less government, depending on the novel.]

This claim of yours for the Am Rev appears to amount to: "On paper, things seem to me as if they were super-ideal, quasi-anarchist for a couple years, until the revolutionaries got around to setting up a real government, at which point I will agree with you, Helmuth: they were even worse and more tyrannical than the British had been." Is that about it? And furthermore, you concede that this very brief moment of on-paper awesomeness only even applied to one particular division/level of the government. And that all the rest of the government were just as trash as ever, probably more-so actually, compared to before the Revolution.

OK, so that's a position. And I guess it makes sense. In a way. But can you see how weak that is? Let's say you were talking about some other revolution:

"The Ultra-Vedic Revolution of India shrunk the government. Now it's true real overall tax rates rose. It's true the overall number of government officials skyrocketed. However the Posits of Foundation clearly state that the Krishnic branch of government shall only collect tax via the Shivic limbs and never ever from the people directly, we promise. And it was only the Shiva limbs and also the Ganesh twigs of the government that got bigger and more intrusive, not the Krishnic branch. And yes, the Krishnic branch it too became horrible and tyrannical almost immediately, but that was after the Posits of Foundation were replaced by the Bloodtruce of Deva, which was totally different and not True vedism -- it was actually the opposite and a betrayal of the Vedic way!"

'Twould seem a bit... esoteric and technical, a bit like special pleading, yes? The bottom line is : Freer, yea or nay?

[H_H]

Also, great, Ender, on the Pledge!

Thing is, if you're edgy enough to reject The Pledge of Allegiance, surely you can imagine how someone might be edgy enough to reject some lame Non-American lesbian's transparently self-serving, drug-addled screed that somehow sneaked on (years later) to the Statue of Liberty. Eh?

Or can you truly not imagine anyone edgier than yourself?

Have some imagination!

[Ender]

[FONT=Verdana]
Well great. Just to be clear:

You are claiming the American Revolution was a case of a revolution which decreased government.

It did- for about 6-8 years- until TPTB got upset and formed the CONstitution.

The CONstitution was specifically for increased power to a central gov. and it worked perfectly.

[Swordsmyth]

It did- for about 6-8 years- until TPTB got upset and formed the CONstitution.

The CONstitution was specifically for increased power to a central gov. and it worked perfectly.

The joke was on them however, the Anti-Federalists managed to include the Bill of Rights and other protections that slowed down the pace of decay so that in time America became the least fouled up country in the world as everyone else went totally off the cliff.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

lol no, the biggest authoritarians are already here,...

Says the guy who is paid to promote division.

[TheCount]

Says the guy who is paid to promote division.

Everyone I disagree with is a paid shill!

-NorthCarolinaLiberty, probably

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Everyone I disagree with is a paid shill!

LOL No, just you and a handful of your comrades. Nice try, chief!

(edit): By the way, I just got a PM and a thank you from a real RPF member. That RPF member was at odds with one of the paid shills on here. I pointed out the paid shill to the RPF member (in a + rep). The RPF member was glad to learn he was replying to a known shill.

[Influenza]

LOL No, just you and a handful of your comrades. Nice try, chief!

(edit): By the way, I just got a PM and a thank you from a real RPF member. That RPF member was at odds with one of the paid shills on here. I pointed out the paid shill to the RPF member (in a + rep). The RPF member was glad to learn he was replying to a known shill.

OMG that means you must be right!! Someone sent a thank-you note!!! I've gotten private messages from people calling you and swordsmyth complete idiots. Whose private messages should we trust?