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Thread: Sen. Flake says he'll retire

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Back in the day when RP was still in congress and the freedom index voting evaluation always scored him a 100%, Jeff Flake was the 80% which was better than 98% of congress. Jeff really is a man of character.
    I think I’ve called his office a couple dozen times and over the course of many months I never got a hold of anyone.

    He’s on the wrong side of many key issues. His resignation is welcomed as far as I’m concerned.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump



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  3. #62
    Oh, sorry, I thought that read "Snow Flake" retires. Which I thought to be weird, and I don't mean that to just mean "weird", I mean it as being really, really, really weird. Because everybody knows that snowflakes cannot retire!
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  4. #63
    Those who do not know of Kelli Ward might want to check her out. She has introduced bills to get rid of traffic cams, to bring back a Constitutional currency, to imprison public servants who violate their Oath of Office with regards to the Second Amendment, to defund the NSA at a state level etc.

    Certainly not things that most are offering.

    She is better than Flake.

    The only issue she isn’t solid on is immigration. That is to say, she wants a wall.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    The only issue she isn’t solid on is immigration. That is to say, she wants a wall.
    So you are saying that the wall she wants is not solid? Because usually, walls are pretty solid.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    So you are saying that the wall she wants is not solid? Because usually, walls are pretty solid.
    I am saying that advocating for a wall is not a liberty position, though many might like that idea.

    The wall is already laughably un-solid. As evidenced by the recent video of the guy easily scaling the wall and then even more easily walking around it.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  8. #66
    Flake won’t rule out 2020 presidential bid

    http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/357037-flake-wont-rule-out-2020-presidential-bid
    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    I am saying that advocating for a wall is not a liberty position, though many might like that idea.

    The wall is already laughably un-solid. As evidenced by the recent video of the guy easily scaling the wall and then even more easily walking around it.
    If walls are not a “liberty position” then why do people put fences, stone, and concrete walls around their property? Are gates and keep out signs against a liberty position? What if a group of people want to build a wall around all of their property? Should they be forbidden to do so?

    And if walls don’t work, what about fences? What about walls that are connected to ceilings and doors (called homes)? Are they laughably un-solid?
    Last edited by Gumba of Liberty; 10-25-2017 at 12:42 PM.

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    Flake won’t rule out 2020 presidential bid

    http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/357037-flake-wont-rule-out-2020-presidential-bid
    Flake has a MAGA deficiency.

    He and Little Marco can play grab-ass with each other at the little kids table.

    Should be fun and painful to watch.

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    If walls are not a “liberty position” then why do people put fences, stone, and concrete walls around their property? Are gates and keep out signs against a liberty position? What if a group of people want to build a wall around all of their property? Should they be forbidden to do so?

    And if walls don’t work, what about fences? What about walls that are connected to ceilings and doors (called homes)? Are they laughably un-solid?
    It has to do with the forced extraction of wealth.

    If private owners of private land wished to erect a wall, more power to them.

    If a forced, fictitious union of some unaccountable so called representatives who themselves are ‘elected’ in secret, bearing no allegiance to any document they supposedly represent gather round and bicker over whether to steal money from private individuals or to debase the currency to further enclose their tax slaves, well, that’s not morally legitimate.

    It’s laughable because of tunnels, boats, airplanes, helicopters, submarines, and the kicker, they let people in anyways who then overstay their VISAs.

    Socialism is bad.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    If walls are not a “liberty position” then why do people put fences, stone, and concrete walls around their property? Are gates and keep out signs against a liberty position? What if a group of people want to build a wall around all of their property? Should they be forbidden to do so?

    And if walls don’t work, what about fences? What about walls that are connected to ceilings and doors (called homes)? Are they laughably un-solid?
    Ron Paul cautioned that walls can be used to keep us in if we want to leave. He has also said:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201

    "Now there's a lot of antagonism and resentment turned just automatically on immigrants," he continued. "You say, no not immigrants, it's just illegal immigrants. I do believe in legal immigration. I want to have a provision to obey those laws. You have to understand this in the context of the economy."

    Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

    What the country does need, he said, is "a much better immigration service" fed by more resources. Not that he'd "vote for extra money." But he does, he told the crowd, have a plan.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    It has to do with the forced extraction of wealth.

    If private owners of private land wished to erect a wall, more power to them.

    If a forced, fictitious union of some unaccountable so called representatives who themselves are ‘elected’ in secret, bearing no allegiance to any document they supposedly represent gather round and bicker over whether to steal money from private individuals or to debase the currency to further enclose their tax slaves, well, that’s not morally legitimate.

    It’s laughable because of tunnels, boats, airplanes, helicopters, submarines, and the kicker, they let people in anyways who then overstay their VISAs.

    Socialism is bad.
    Force wealth extraction is not exclusively a “Wall” issue, it’s what the State does. You could say the same thing about the police, military or education. Regardless, even in a stateless world, I still want defense against foreign nations, internal enforcement of natural laws and an educated society. In this day and age, where the State activity violates my property rights and imports foreigners on my dime, a wall to stem the invasion seems less and less “forced” from my POV.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumba of Liberty View Post
    Force wealth extraction is not exclusively a “Wall” issue, it’s what the State does. You could say the same thing about the police, military or education. Regardless, even in a stateless world, I still want defense against foreign nations, internal enforcement of natural laws and an educated society. In this day and age, where the State activity violates my property rights and imports foreigners on my dime, a wall to stem the invasion seems less and less “forced” from my POV.
    Indeed. It is what the state does.

    Are there moral ways to defend oneself or a group of people who identify as a collective? Yes. The state does not get a pass for _____ because of ____. The same reasoning behind supporting a wall could be logically extended to virtually anything the state does. And it is.

    My opposition to the wall is that it is rather ineffective, it is politicized, it corrupts markets, I am robbed to pay for it, and there is a morally superior and logically sound way to deal with the question of immigration. Namely private property and the abolition of the welfare state.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump



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  16. #73
    She loves the wall alright. She favors the proposed southern border wall too.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Ron Paul cautioned that walls can be used to keep us in if we want to leave. He has also said:

    http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb...forum-20120201
    Thanks for the rep.

    Thread: Sen. Flake says he'll retire 10-25-2017 03:53 PM
    People like you really shouldn't quote RP. Go away. sparebulb
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-25-2017 at 05:07 PM.

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Thanks for the rep.
    No problem.

    You earned it.

    Please tell us again just how Rand Paul is actively working to preserve Obamacare.

    Forgive me for my vomit when you quote the Pauls.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by sparebulb View Post
    No problem.

    You earned it.

    Please tell us again just how Rand Paul is actively working to preserve Obamacare.

    Forgive me for my vomit when you quote the Pauls.
    He said he was against Obamacare Lite because it did not get rid of Obamacare. Then he voted for it- a bill which preserves more than 90% of the original. That isn't repealing Obamacare. It would have let it continue (the bill didn't pass anyways).

    http://www.businessinsider.com/rand-...-repeal-2017-9

    "I can't support a bill that keeps 90% of Obamacare in place," Paul said. "#GrahamCassidy is not repeal or replace, it is more Obamacare Lite."
    http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/04/politi...aul/index.html

    3 reasons Rand Paul calls GOP repeal plan "Obamacare Lite"

    Republicans want to repeal Obamacare, but are they replacing it with Obamacare Lite?

    So say Sen. Rand Paul and other conservatives, who are not happy with the plan to replace Obamacare that's being crafted -- some argue hidden -- by GOP House leaders.

    A 106-page draft version of the leadership bill was leaked last week, providing more details into how the House would dismantle major provisions of the Affordable Care Act and what would come in its stead. A closely held update has circulated among a select few in recent days. Conservatives and Democrats have demanded to see the new version but have had little success in ferreting it out.

    In response, Paul has gone on a Twitter and media blitz, saying the bill does not accomplish Republicans' mission of repealing Obamacare. That's because many of the GOP replacement measures are too similar to the landmark health reform law.


    "What we think is being hidden from conservatives is there's a lot of 'Obamacare Lite' in their bill," the Kentucky Republican said on CNN's "New Day" Friday. "There's a new entitlement program. ... There is also a Cadillac tax or something similar to the Cadillac tax that was in Obamacare. And there's also an individual mandate, believe it or not. Instead of paying the mandate to the government, they're going to tell you you have to pay the mandate, by law, to an insurance company."


    My apologies for quoting Rand Paul.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 10-25-2017 at 05:26 PM.

  20. #77
    If you are so critical of the Pauls, then why are you here, Zippy?

    It is bad form to criticize the Pauls on one hand, and then quote them on the other.

    You can have it both ways everywhere in the world without challenge.....

    Except on a Ron/Rand Paul enthusiast website.

    Why are you really here?
    Last edited by sparebulb; 10-25-2017 at 05:37 PM.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    Kelli Ward the candidate being pushed on these forums is a card carrying Trump Republican.
    She is campaigning right now, and while she does overdo the Trump support, it is the smart thing to do. She wants to get the votes of those same abandoned middle class voters and anti-establishment types. And don't doubt for a second that the establishment is going to aim both barrels at her, most likely with an MSM supported smear campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    Those who do not know of Kelli Ward might want to check her out. She has introduced bills to get rid of traffic cams, to bring back a Constitutional currency, to imprison public servants who violate their Oath of Office with regards to the Second Amendment, to defund the NSA at a state level etc.

    Certainly not things that most are offering.

    She is better than Flake.

    The only issue she isn’t solid on is immigration. That is to say, she wants a wall.
    Agree. I would anticipate Ward being somewhere in between Thomas Massie and Dave Brat if elected to the Senate. She should be a good ally to Rand, rather than huddling in corners with McCain, Graham and Rubio as Flake often did.
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    The RP republicans are Rand, Amish, Massie. Trump has attacked and tried to defeat 2 out of three. Trump is loved on these forums.
    Quote Originally Posted by klamath View Post
    The face of the forum is SOLIDLY pro trump. If Trump was being scored on voting he would probably at 30%.
    Care to give some examples?

    In two pages of the most recent posts (50 threads), these are the ones that mention Trump. Two are by Zippy, our resident secret Trump agent. Which of the other threads are "SOLIDLY pro-Trump"? Where is the outrageous Trump love?

    - Turns out, it was the Clinton's using the Russians to discredit Trump

    - Trump Gets Standing Ovation

    - NFL HELL: Owners/TV networks face mounting losses as Trump called boycotts spread

    - Republican tax plan could affect 401(k) plans, despite Trump assurances

    - President Donald J. Trump Proclaims October 24, 2017, as United Nations Day

    - Is President Trump acting on his recent ultimatum for India's Modi?
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  23. #80
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Yeah I don't think this is good. Ward is running on being a yes woman. Flake seemed to be taking a stand against the bad path (imo) the GOP has started on. He wasn't perfect but I thought he was a voice of reason.
    Senator Flake a "Voice of Reason"? LOL. Flake is no libertarian. Flake as senator is at best run of the mill big government loving Republican who unfortunately chose to be another warmonger and hitched his wagon to the neocon train. When he reached the senate he became mini-McCain. Flake see the writing on the wall, and rather than go out in a humiliating defeat chose not to run.
    Flake is a voice of reason if one thinks:
    • being a warmongering neocon is a voice of reason;
    • opposing Rand Paul's attempt to sunset the AUMF (lauding Paul's goal while actively opposing the amendment) is the a voice of reason;
    • perpetual support for continued new AUMF;
    • supporting warmongering William Kristol’s neocon nutcase candidate ex-CIA and former Goldman Sachs banker Evan McMullin is a voice of reason; ...
    • supporting increase federal gun control with the post-Sandyhook federal gun grab bills is a voice of reason;
    • extending the Patriot Act's roving wiretaps;
    • supported making the Patriot Permanent'
    • voting against requiring a FISA warrant for wiretaps in US;
    • opposed the veto override for Congressional oversight of CIA interrogations;
    • voted in favor of continued intelligence gathering with no civil oversight;
    • voted in favor of federal rules for driver's licenses;
    • opposing the bill to defund Obamacare is a voice of reason;
    • supporting the 1.1 trillion Cromnibus spending bill;
    • funding Obama's unconstitutional executive amnesty;
    • supporting a Clean debt limit suspension;
    • supporting the Ryan-Murray budget lifting spending limits and raising taxes;
    • opposed removing troops back fork Afghanistan;
    • opposed removing troops from Iraq;
    • supported declaring Iraq occupation part of "war on Terror" with no exit date;
    • supports Israel campaigns against Palestinians, supports Israel on virtually everything, affirms his "commitment to the unbreakable US-Israeli bond";
    • supported sanctions on Iran as Senator;


    Getting into a pissing contest with Trump does not make Flake a "voice of reason."
    Some here appear to be blinded into thinking that anyone the Trump doesn't like must automatically be good. By that standard McCain and Graham must be angels, and Rand Paul one of the worst. Rand however is a great voice of reason in the senate.

    While Flake as senator had his lips glued to McCain's rear, here is some Kelly Ward by contrast:

    Dr. Kelli Ward, "John McCain is directly responsible for the rise of ISIS."

    "John McCain is 'directly responsible' for the rise of ISIS. Without his dangerously distracted foreign policy, we would not have this ruthless Islamic extremist organization that crucifies children, systematically rapes women, oppresses Christians, and throws homosexuals off rooftops.

    Libya and Iraq would not be the “Harvard of terrorism” they are now if it were not for his knee-jerk, trigger-happy foreign policy of promiscuously arming the supposedly moderate militants he says he is “intimate with” and overthrowing stable, albeit unsavory regimes. He even wants to stay in Iraq for 100 years and joked about risking military lives to “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.” Even George W. Bush and Tony Blair have admitted that the 2003 invasion of Iraq created a vacuum which allowed jihadist ideologies to flourish. Our open border has given those emboldened elements access to our country and our citizens. McCain has been complicit in all of it."

    https://causes.anedot.com/ward-for-senate?sc=home


    At the state level, she introduced The Arizona Fourth Amendment Protection Act to withdraw state support for collection of metadata and ban the use of warrantless data in courts. It also would have "ban the state from engaging in activities which help the NSA carry out their warrantless data-collection programs, or even make use of the information on a local level.

    Her first bill introduced at the state level was The Second Amendment Protection Act, which would make unconstitutional federal gun control laws and executive orders void and of no effect in AZ.

    GOA has endorsed Dr. Kelli Ward.

    Dr. Ron Paul has endorsed Dr. Kelli Ward:
    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...r-john-mccain/

    "As a physician, you have seen first*hand how ObamaCare has reduced our liberties in just a few short years. During your time as state senator, you have fought to reduce the size of government and restore the liberties of Arizonans. We need to elect more people into the U.S. Senate to stand alongside my son, Rand Paul. Because of your dedication to smaller government and restoring more of our personal liberties, I am proud to endorse your campaign for the U.S. Senate."



    Last edited by AZJoe; 10-25-2017 at 11:00 PM.
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing." - Dr. Ron Paul. "Stand up for what you believe in, even if you are standing alone." - Sophie Magdalena Scholl
    "War is the health of the State." - Randolph Bourne "Freedom is the answer. ... Now, what's the question?" - Ernie Hancock.

  26. #82
    Hopefully if he's gearing up for a 2020 run he'll have Amash as his running mate.

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by P3ter_Griffin View Post
    Hopefully if he's gearing up for a 2020 run he'll have Amash as his running mate.

    Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

    Robert Heinlein

    Give a man an inch and right away he thinks he's a ruler

    Groucho Marx

    I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.

    Linus, from the Peanuts comic

    You cannot have liberty without morality and morality without faith

    Alexis de Torqueville

    Those who fail to learn from the past are condemned to repeat it.
    Those who learn from the past are condemned to watch everybody else repeat it

    A Zero Hedge comment

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We ain't getting where 'we want to go' in one stop. Currently I think we're spiralling in the other direction.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by kcchiefs6465 View Post
    I am saying that advocating for a wall is not a liberty position, though many might like that idea.

    The wall is already laughably un-solid. As evidenced by the recent video of the guy easily scaling the wall and then even more easily walking around it.
    Just make it twice as tall and twice as long, problem solved.
    It's all about taking action and not being lazy. So you do the work, whether it's fitness or whatever. It's about getting up, motivating yourself and just doing it.
    - Kim Kardashian

    Donald Trump / Crenshaw 2024!!!!

    My pronouns are he/him/his

  30. #86
    I am not a Trump lover but, it does seem like this "Flake" guy has not done me any big favors good riddance MFer. Why don't you take your buddy McCain and his girl friend Lindsey with you?

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Raginfridus View Post
    Trump is also self-righteous; maybe he and Flake aren't so different at heart. I don't know if Rand stood for Flake's speech or he didn't, but I'd sooner assume that if Rand didn't stand, it was just a crappy speech. Or maybe Rand was kind of pissed Flake is leaving, only for a Trumpster to take his vote. Maybe he's essentially gambling a liberty-leaning(?) seat, so as Brian4Liberty says Flake steal the election back. Maybe Rand doesn't like that kind of politics. Though like nobody's_hero pointed out, maybe Flake doesn't belong if he's got a career politician's mindset - let him find a career in some anti-populist populist lobby. Those are only a couple reasons Rand could have for choosing not to stand and applaud Flake.
    For politicians like Flake, "Moderation" is heralded as the cornerstone of "good governance." Being able to compromise is the hallmark of American government, so they think. I heard this quite a bit in 2012 as a delegate for Ron Paul, I was accused of being 'too stubborn'.

    As for me, moderation and willingness to compromise are not characteristics I find desirable in a politician. We've had well over 100 years of compromise with the left and they've never given real conservatives anything in return. When the liberals unapologetically take everything they want, while 'moderates' are willing to give up ground for the sake of 'compromise', and conservatives get nothing, ever, that combination causes a leftward shift. So a "moderate" republican might as well be a democrat these days.

    What was it Goldwater said?: "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice . . . and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." I'm not terribly torn up over the announced retirement of a Rockefeller republican.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 10-27-2017 at 08:23 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me

    Quote Originally Posted by Philhelm
    I part ways with "libertarianism" when it transitions from ideology grounded in logic into self-defeating autism for the sake of ideological purity.

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by nobody's_hero View Post
    For politicians like Flake, "Moderation" is heralded as the cornerstone of "good governance." Being able to compromise is the hallmark of American government, so they think. I heard this quite a bit in 2012 as a delegate for Ron Paul, I was accused of being 'too stubborn'.

    As for me, moderation and willingness to compromise are not characteristics I find desirable in a politician. We've had well over 100 years of compromise with the left and they've never given real conservatives anything in return. When the liberals unapologetically take everything they want, while 'moderates' are willing to give up ground for the sake of 'compromise', and conservatives get nothing, ever, that combination causes a leftward shift. So a "moderate" republican might as well be a democrat these days.

    What was it Goldwater said?: "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice . . . and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." I'm not terribly torn up over the announced retirement of a Rockefeller republican.
    Can echo a lot of this. At the primaries I went to, it was the same thing. Santorum delegates were screaming at the rest of us to unite the party and stop standing on principle (and vote for their guy of course) and no one would budge because standing on principle was why most of us were there supporting RP.

    We've all been lied to our entire lives that we need to compromise, and most people living in this country have indeed compromised their morality and humanity, and what we have received in exchange is a never ending growth of tyranny. Doesn't seem like a very good deal.



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