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Thread: Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

  1. #1

    Bitcoins: The Second Biggest Ponzi Scheme in History

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/11/...-ponzi-scheme/

    Nov 30, 2013 by Gary North

    I hereby make a prediction: Bitcoins will go down in history as the most spectacular private Ponzi scheme in history. It will dwarf anything dreamed of by Bernard Madoff. (It will never rival Social Security, however.)

    To explain my position, I must do two things. First, I will describe the economics of every Ponzi scheme. Second, I will explain the Austrian school of economics' theory of the origin of money. My analysis is strictly economic. As far as I know, it is a legal scheme -- and should be.

    PONZI ECONOMICS

    First, someone who no one has ever heard of before announces that he has discovered a way to make money. In the case of Bitcoins, the claim is literal. The creator literally made what he says is money, or will be money. He made this money out of digits. He made it out of nothing. Think "Federal Reserve wanna-be."

    Second, the individual claims that a particular market provides unexploited arbitrage opportunities. Something is selling too low. If you buy into the program now, the person running the scheme will be able to sell it high on your behalf. So, you will take advantage of the arbitrage opportunity.

    Today, with high-speed trading, arbitrage opportunities last only for a few milliseconds seconds in widely traded markets. Arbitrage opportunities in the commodity futures market last for very short periods. But in the most leveraged and sophisticated of all the futures markets, namely, the currency futures markets, arbitrage opportunities last for so brief a period of time that only high-speed computer programs can take advantage of them.

    The individual who sells the Ponzi scheme makes money by siphoning off a large share of the money coming in. In other words, he does not make the investment. But Bitcoins are unique. The money was siphoned off from the beginning. Somebody owned a good percentage of the original digits. Then, by telling his story, this individual created demand for all of the digits. The dollar-value of his share of the Bitcoins appreciates with the other digits.

    This strategy was described a generation ago by George Goodman, who wrote under the pseudonym of Adam Smith. You can find it in his book, Supermoney. This is done with financial corporations when individuals create a new business, retain a large share of the shares, and then sell the stock to the public. In this sense, Bitcoins is not a Ponzi scheme. It is simply a supermoney scheme.

    The Ponzi aspect of it comes when we look at the justification for Bitcoins. They were sold on the basis that Bitcoins will be an alternative currency. In other words, this will be the money of the future.

    The coins will never be the money of the future. This is my main argument.

    THE AUSTRIAN SCHOOL'S THEORY OF MONEY'S ORIGINS

    The best definition of money was first offered by Austrian economist Carl Menger in 1892. He said that money is the most marketable commodity. This definition was picked up by his disciple, Ludwig von Mises, who presented it in his book, The Theory of Money and Credit, published in 1912.

    In that book, Mises argued, as Menger had before him, that money arises out of market transactions. That which did not function as money before, now functions as money. Something that was valuable for its own sake, most likely gold or silver, becomes valuable for another purpose, namely, the facilitation of exchange. People move from barter to a monetary economy. This increases the division of labor. As more and more people use the money commodity in order to facilitate exchanges, the division of labor extends, and as a result, people's productivity increases. They can specialize. This specialization produces increased output per person, and therefore increased income per person.

    In this scenario, something that had independent value becomes the focus of traders, who find that their ability to buy and sell increases as a result of the use of this commodity. Money develops out of market exchanges. Money was not used for its own sake initially, but it becomes widely used as money as a result of innumerable transactions within the economy. (I discuss this in my chapter in Theory of Money and Fiduciary Media, published by the Mises Institute in 2012.)

    Here is the central fact of money. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time. It spreads slowly, as new people discover it as a tool of production, because it increases the size of the market for all goods and services. No one says, "I think I'll invent a new form of money."

    Note: any time you see a proposal of a new form of money, hold on to your old form of money.

    The central benefit of money is its predictable purchasing power. A monetary commodity is not easy to produce. The cost of mining is high. Money is slowly adopted by a large number of participants. These participants use money as a means of exchange. Why? Because it was valuable the day before. They therefore expect it to be valuable the next day. Money has continuity of value. This is not intrinsic value. It is historic value. So, a person can buy money by the sale of goods or services, set this money aside, and re-enter the markets in a different location or in a different time, in the confidence that he will probably be able to buy a similar quantity of goods and services.

    Money is not accumulated for its own sake. It is accumulated to buy future goods and services. It is useful in the facilitation of exchange precisely because its market value varies little over time. It is the predictability of money's market exchange rate that makes it money.

    BITCOINS ARE NOT MONEY

    Now let us look at bitcoins. The market value of one bitcoin has gone from about $2 to $1,000 in a year. This is not money. This commodity is not being bought for its services as money. It is unpredictable to a fault.

    Admittedly, those who got in early on this Ponzi scheme are doing very well. They will probably continue to do well for a time. As more people hear about this investment, which is justified in terms of its future potential as money, more people will buy it. Late-comers are not buying it because they understand its potential as future money, any more than the late investors in Charles Ponzi's scheme thought they were buying into the arbitrage potential of foreign postage stamps. They are buying Bitcoins because we are in the midst of a Ponzi scheme mania. They will continue to buy because they think this time it's different.

    This digital so-called money will not be used to facilitate exchange. Nobody is going to be getting rid of an asset that has moved from $2 to $1,000 in one year in order to buy pizzas. People want to hang onto it, refusing to sell, in the hopes that it will go to $2,000. This is the classic mark of Ponzi scheme psychology. People do not buy the investment for the benefits that the investment provides as an investment, in other words, because it is a capital asset. They buy it only because it has gone up in price. They expect this to continue.

    Here is the Austrian school's theory of money. People buy money because it has not fallen in price. But it has also not gone up in price much, either. It is predictable. Why? Because it is held in reserve by a large number of people over a large geographical area. It has become money through tradition, through experience, and through endless numbers of exchanges on a voluntary basis. It has proven itself in the marketplace as a means of facilitating exchange, and thereby as a means of preserving value over time. This is not the characteristic feature of a Bitcoin. People are not buying it to serve as money; they are buying it because they are in the midst of a mania, and they are gambling that the number of buyers will continue upward forever.

    Here is an economic fact: the number of fools is limited. They are a scarce economic resource. As the price of bitcoins rises, more fools will be lured into the market. But this is a finite market.

    In other words, bitcoins cannot possibly fulfill their supposed purpose: to serve as an unregulated currency unit. Bitcoins are not an alternative currency. They are something you buy in the midst of a mania, and you will sell at some point in order to get back your money. You are thinking of buying Bitcoins, not because Bitcoins will serve as a means of exchange, as originally argued, but because you want to get back lots more money than you paid for them. In other words, Bitcoins are not money; dollars are money. There has been no challenge from Bitcoins to the reign of the dollar.

    JUST SAY NO

    When you see an offer of an investment which inherently cannot possibly exist on its own merit, and yet lots of people are coming into the market to buy the item, you know, without any question, that this is a Ponzi scheme. In other words, people are buying into the program, not because of an arbitrage opportunity, and not because of a capital breakthrough in terms of technology, but because somebody else bought it cheaper yesterday. You buy it today, not because you think it is going to offer a stable value, but because you think you're going to make a bundle of money when more people come into the market. Again, this is the classic mark of a Ponzi scheme.

    In order for Bitcoins to become an alternative currency, there will have to be millions of users of the currency. There will have to be tens of millions of users of the currency. They will have to develop in a market on their merit as money, not as an investment of dollars in order to get more dollars back. It would have to develop through exchange, not bought as an investment. In other words, the free market will have to adopt Bitcoins as a means of increasing the division of labor.

    Bitcoins are not increasing the division of labor. They are bought on the basis that somebody can get into a game of musical chairs. Instead of running out of chairs, leaving one person the great winter, the promoters started with a given number of chairs, and then they hoped that lots would come and bid on the chairs. "If we issue it, they will come." This took place. The promoters creators are now very rich, as measured in dollars.

    The fact of the matter is this: Bitcoins will not increase the division of labor by serving as an alternative currency. Inherently, Bitcoins have made their mark, not on the basis of their stable value in exchange, that is, their value in increasing the division of labor in alternative markets that do not use the dollar. On the contrary, Bitcoins are being purchased for one reason only: to get in on the deal. Buy low; sell high. Buy with what? Dollars. Sell for what? Dollars.

    The mania has destroyed Bitcoins' use as money. Bitcoins are too volatile in price ever to serve as a currency.

    Which is money: dollars or Bitcoins? The answer is obvious: dollars.

    This is a Ponzi scheme.

    WHAT GOES UP COMES DOWN

    This will lead to the ruination of more people than any private Ponzi scheme in history. There will be the poor schnooks to get in at the end, paying perhaps thousands of dollars per Bitcoin. Then the market will unravel. It will unravel for the same reason that all Ponzi schemes have unraveled: not enough new buyers. When the new buyers do not show up in great numbers, the holders will start to dump them. What went up in price, as measured in dollars, the real money, will come down in price.

    This mania is going to be the stuff of best-selling books. This is going to be this stuff of Ph.D. dissertations in economics and psychology. This is going to be the equivalent of Mackay's book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds.

    The interesting thing is the mania started among the most technologically sophisticated people on earth: computer techies. The techies who got in early are going to be fabulously wealthy . . . if they sell. But the poor schnooks who come in at the and are going to lose money. Collectively, this will be the greatest single scheme for lots of people losing money that we have ever seen. This Ponzi scheme is not illegal . . . yet. It will spread. It has gone viral.

    Any time you buy an investment, you had better have an exit strategy. There is no exit strategy for Bitcoins.

    You must get out at the top, or you lose your shirt.

    CONCLUSION

    Anytime that anybody tries to sell you an investment, you have to look at it on this basis: "What are the future benefits that this investment will give final consumers?" In other words, how does it serve the final consumer? If it does not serve the final consumer, then it is a Ponzi scheme.

    Bitcoins cannot serve the consumer. There is nothing to consume. The only way that Bitcoins can work to the advantage of the consumer is that they provides the consumer with increased opportunities, based on Bitcoins' function as money. But the fundamental characteristic of money is its relatively stable purchasing power.

    Bitcoins will never achieve this. It is a mania going up. It will be a mania coming down. It will not increase the division of labor, because people will recognize it as having been a Ponzi scheme, and they will not again buy it. They will not use it in exchange. Companies will not sell goods and services based on Bitcoins. Bitcoins have to have stable purchasing power if they are to serve as money, and they will never, ever achieve stable purchasing power.

    Whenever somebody tries to sell you an investment that is based on the economic analysis of a market -- an analysis that cannot possibly be true -- do not buy the investment. This is a simple rule. I adhere to this rule.

    There has to be an economic justification for a capital investment, and there is no economic justification of buying Bitcoins as an alternative currency. That was how Bitcoins were initially sold, and it was impossible as an economic concept from the beginning. The Austrian theory of money shows why.

    I do not invest in capital that has no economic justification other than the greater fool theory. There are too few fools to keep the scheme going.

    Bitcoins are not illegal. They should not be made illegal. They should merely be avoided.



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  3. #2
    The dollar isn't used because of the market. The dollar completely changed when we split from the gold standard, that was wholly government action. The only reason the dollar is used nearly exclusively in the US, is you must use it to pay taxes, and they attempt to regulate any competitor out. Money as in our present dollar has jack $#@! nothing to do with evolving from the market.

    That article is as stupid as the Y2k stuff..... oh wait, yeah, that's the computer illiterate paranoid freak $#@!face Gary North again spreading fud, just like Y2K. He should jump off a bridge.

  4. #3
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  5. #4
    This scam has worked out really well for me. Paid off my student loans like they were chump change and that was just partial profit.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by FSP-Rebel View Post
    This scam has worked out really well for me. Paid off my student loans like they were chump change and that was just partial profit.
    What was electricity bill? $50,000?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    What was electricity bill? $50,000?
    You should really learn to defer to other people on the forum when it comes to economics.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by FSP-Rebel View Post
    This scam has worked out really well for me. Paid off my student loans like they were chump change and that was just partial profit.
    Lots of people made out like bandits with Madoff. The fact that you made a killing doesn't mean everybody of even a majority broken even. Your anecdote success story only tells me that some people do make it in a ponzi scheme which was never in doubt.

  9. #8
    The Ponzi aspect of it comes when we look at the justification for Bitcoins. They were sold on the basis that Bitcoins will be an alternative currency. In other words, this will be the money of the future.

    The coins will never be the money of the future. This is my main argument.
    Easy enough argument.

    This year Japan passed a law to accept bitcoin as a legal payment method. Australia treats it just like money as of this month.

    While many other countries view it as property or a commodity I'm sure there will be more official recognition of it as currency with time.



    Also... Y2K was an actual problem. However it was determined to be a problem, lots of work with time/expense was done to update old programs and overall the problem was averted. The hype hysteria was overkill, the underlying problem was actually real.
    “…let us teach them that all who draw breath are of equal worth, and that those who seek to press heel upon the throat of liberty, will fall to the cry of FREEDOM!!!” – Spartacus, War of the Damned

    BTC: 1AFbCLYU3G1dkbsSJnk3spWeEwpqYVC2Pq



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  11. #9
    Imagine the price of bitcoin does not fall below the cost of mining using the latest hardware. Almost everybody is mining. When will this scam be using all the electricity on the planet?

  12. #10
    lol this is hilarious.
    THE SQUAD of RPF
    1. enhanced_deficit - Paid Troll / John Bolton book promoter
    2. Devil21 - LARPing Wizard, fake magical script reader
    3. Firestarter - Tax Troll; anti-tax = "criminal behavior"
    4. TheCount - Comet Pizza Pedo Denier <-- sick

    @Ehanced_Deficit's real agenda on RPF =troll:

    Who spends this much time copy/pasting the same recycled links, photos/talking points.

    7 yrs/25k posts later RPF'ers still respond to this troll

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Imagine the price of bitcoin does not fall below the cost of mining using the latest hardware. Almost everybody is mining. When will this scam be using all the electricity on the planet?
    The more miners, the less miners make in rewards and so it would eventually fall below the price. Smarter people than you or I designed this.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    Smarter people than you or I designed this.
    Not very reassuring.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    Not very reassuring.
    It is open source code, you can read it yourself, it's not a secret how it works.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    You should really learn to defer to other people on the forum when it comes to economics.
    I'm with him. This is just another currency backed by absolutely nothing of value.. I'll stick with gold, and I'll continue to lobby for commodity-based currency.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I'm with him. This is just another currency backed by absolutely nothing of value.. I'll stick with gold, and I'll continue to lobby for commodity-based currency.
    So you want to send gold to people when you buy something on ebay or amazon? Or do you have to trust that somebody else is holding onto gold for you?

    Commodity currencies are essential, but for many types of transactions bitcoin holds greater value because you can read the code yourself and verify that you own it, but you can't always fly down to 'veryify' that your gold is being held onto when you do some transaction with somebody far away.

    These currencies should be existing side by side.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    So you want to send gold to people when you buy something on ebay or amazon? Or do you have to trust that somebody else is holding onto gold for you?

    Commodity currencies are essential, but for many types of transactions bitcoin holds greater value because you can read the code yourself and verify that you own it, but you can't always fly down to 'veryify' that your gold is being held onto when you do some transaction with somebody far away.

    These currencies should be existing side by side.
    Anytime a sentence starts with the word so, the odds are that the statement that follows is a red herring. Preferring a commodity-backed currency does not equate to sending people physical gold every time I buy something.

    I am fine with competing currencies. But I still think Bitcoin is....not for me.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Preferring a commodity-backed currency does not equate to sending people physical gold every time I buy something.
    I know, I addressed that, I came up with a solution (that has been tried before, MANY times, and typically has serious issues) where somebody holds onto your gold and you get a note that you can take back and exchange for the gold. You can say to a person, hey, I am "sending" you this certificate for the gold, it's there, I promise, now send me that thing from China you person on the other side of the country. How do you verify that? You can't unless you get a plane ticket across the country to pickup the gold yourself, or you sell the gold certificate to someone else for slightly less gold (because there is a cost to verifying and transporting the gold if they want to hold it themselves).

    Bitcoin gets around all of these problems of verification and transportation, it HAS value as a currency. It has a widely used network of computers aiding in transactions. You can't say it doesn't have value. People use it. That goes against the very definition.


    I am fine with competing currencies. But I still think Bitcoin is....not for me.
    You can adopt it after everybody else does, that's fine. The early adopters are here because we think it is a good idea and will eventually have a high adoption rate, either in their locale or some other places in the world. You can already buy a lot of stuff on the internet. But more importantly, I think people can use it to overthrow their fiat currencies when there is a crisis, or otherwise.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post

    Bitcoin gets around all of these problems of verification and transportation, it HAS value as a currency. It has a widely used network of computers aiding in transactions. You can't say it doesn't have value. People use it. That goes against the very definition.




    .
    You keep accusing me of saying things I didn't say. I never said Bitcoin does not have value. Clearly it has a value to you. I am not saying Bitcoin has no value as a currency. Just has no value to me. That's how markets work - speculation.

    Fiat dollars also have a value because people can verify it, store it and easily transport it.

    I see speculators equate making money to turning Bitcoin into dollars. That looks an awful lot like a bubble.

    If the price of Bitcoin goes up, why would anybody spend it instead of using dollars?
    Last edited by angelatc; 07-20-2017 at 11:37 AM.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    You keep accusing me of saying things I didn't say. I never said Bitcoin does not have value.
    You said it is backed by nothing of value - but it is backed by the code and the network infrastructure, which is the currency itself and does have value.



    I see speculators equate making money to turning Bitcoin into dollars. That looks an awful lot like a bubble.
    Just because people are speculating doesn't mean it's a bubble, that is a sign that people think it will hold greater value in the future. If fiat currencies start failing and people turn to bitcoin, they can save their country and save millions of lives. All because people like us decided to build and invest this valuable currency.


    If the price of Bitcoin goes up, why would anybody spend it instead of using dollars?
    What? I bought bitcoin at $70 and in a matter of days or weeks it went to $1200 and I went out and bought gold and silver with some of it. The price went up, I spent it. What's the problem? It actually encourages people to spend it.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post

    You said it is backed by nothing of value - but it is backed by the code and the network infrastructure, which is the currency itself and does have value.
    AH yes, but there's nothing to stop the banks and governments from creating their own blockchains. Heck, in 20 years everybody might have their own little local currencies.
    What? I bought bitcoin at $70 and in a matter of days or weeks it went to $1200 and I went out and bought gold and silver with some of it. The price went up, I spent it. What's the problem? It actually encourages people to spend it.
    Well, that isn't really spending it. That's diversifying your investments. I'm basing this position on the assumption that the long term goal is to create a commonly used alternative currency.

    Here's what I'm thinking: The dollar is structured to depreciate as more currency is introduced into the system. If there were commodity backed currencies in circulation, I think we could assume their values would fluctuate along with the demand of the underlying commodity.

    But Bitcoin is structured so that it should never go down in value.

    If I have $20 in fiat currency, and $20 in Bitcoin, why would I spend the Bitcoin when I know the dollar is going to depreciate? Answer is: I won't.

    Therefore, I don't think that it will become a common currency because the finite design will encourage hoarding.
    Last edited by angelatc; 07-20-2017 at 12:56 PM.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    AH yes, but there's nothing to stop the banks and governments from creating their own blockchains. Heck, in 20 years everybody might have their own little local currencies.
    There are already hundreds if not thousands of legitimate competing crypto-currencies, but they have to be adopted to be successful. Bitcoin is the most widely adopted at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Well, that isn't really spending it. That's diversifying your investments. I'm basing this position on the assumption that the long term goal is to create a commonly used alternative currency.
    You don't need a common currency, fewer is more convenient but there can always be exchanges.


    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Here's what I'm thinking: The dollar is structured to depreciate as more currency is introduced into the system. If there were commodity backed currencies in circulation, I think we could assume their values would fluctuate along with the demand of the underlying commodity.

    But Bitcoin is structured so that it should never go down in value.

    If I have $20 in fiat currency, and $20 in Bitcoin, why would I spend the Bitcoin when I know the dollar is going to depreciate? Answer is: I won't.

    Therefore, I don't think that it will become a common currency because the finite design will encourage hoarding.
    Bitcoin has gone down in value, due to demand, it went from $1200 down to around $300.

    What you are referring to is the fact that bitcoin has controlled inflation, which is slower than the rate of inflation of fiat currencies. So over time it will gain value over fiat currencies, that is correct.

    So what will happen in a hyper-inflation scenario is you will go out one day and be like, ahh man, a burger costs $600.. The next day you will be like, ahh man, a burger costs $800... I better spend these dollars I have now before they become more worthless, and I don't want to replace the dollars with more dollars because they just go down in value, so if I ever get dollars, I'm going to immediately exchange them for bitcoin. If everybody did this, then eventually what will happen is nobody wants the fiat currency and everybody wants the crypto.. That's when things get exciting, and that is when the early adopters get rewarded for investing in something that people needed before they knew they needed it.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post

    . If (for any reason) nobody wants the fiat currency and everybody wants the crypto.. That's when things get exciting, and that is when the early adopters get rewarded for investing in something that people needed before they knew they needed it.
    That's the argument of people who claim this is a Ponzi scheme - that the people who got in early aren't in it to use it as a currency. It's an investment.

    What will the BTC holders get rewarded with? Dollars?

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    That's the argument of people who claim this is a Ponzi scheme - that the people who got in early aren't in it to use it as a currency. It's an investment.
    It's both. It is a currency when it can be and an investment if you are holding onto it. I spend it when I can, besides gold and silver you can buy all sorts of vaping equipment, electronics and whatnot online. Not a lot of places to spend it locally where I am yet. But it is also an investment. When I spend BTC I usually replenish it because like you said it is better to hold BTC than dollars.

    But the reason I don't use it as a currency that often is because it isn't widely used yet.. the reason is because most people don't know about it and what the advantages are. At some point, that may become more clear to more people, at which point it will be very easy to accept and spend BTC because a lot of other people will be doing it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    What will the BTC holders get rewarded with? Dollars?
    Probably not, they will have BTC that is worth a LOT. They will be able to buy gold, silver, property, businesses, equipment, etc.. and whatever they can't buy with BTC they can buy with gold, bought with BTC.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    It's both. It is a currency when it can be and an investment if you are holding onto it. I spend it when I can, besides gold and silver you can buy all sorts of vaping equipment, electronics and whatnot online.
    Where do you shop online that accepts it?



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    IProbably not, they will have BTC that is worth a LOT. They will be able to buy gold, silver, property, businesses, equipment, etc.. and whatever they can't buy with BTC they can buy with gold, bought with BTC.
    How would people put money into it (and drive up value) if the people holding it won't sell it for dollars?

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Where do you shop online that accepts it?
    https://www.fasttech.com/

    https://www.misthub.com/

    https://www.amagimetals.com/


    Can buy on amazon using:

    http://bitcoinist.com/2-3-billion-pe...itcoin-amazon/


    Can buy at Home Depot, CVS, etc using:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoc.../#61b3fc002de2
    Last edited by dannno; 07-20-2017 at 03:47 PM.
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  31. #27
    Looking more for a way to accept it, I guess. I am not going to build a site, and none of the listing sites I use allow it.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Looking more for a way to accept it, I guess.
    At an online store or for individual transactions?
    "He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
    "dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
    "You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
    "When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q

    "Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul

    "Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by dannno View Post
    At an online store or for individual transactions?
    I sell stuff online. But none of the venues I use allow it. I don't have much interest in investing much time in it, but I'd be open to accepting payment.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I sell stuff online. But none of the venues I use allow it. I don't have much interest in investing much time in it, but I'd be open to accepting payment.
    Although we made it available years ago as an option, we have never had any of our hundreds of customer request being able to accept it yet.

    With that said, both https://www.coinbase.com and https://bitpay.com/
    make it super simple to accept it. I preferred coinbase, fwiw.

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