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Thread: A new site vision; a new era

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by opal View Post
    so.. when you go with the new domain - what will happen to ronpaulforums.com?* Are you selling it?* Going to maintain the domain registry?
    Could just be me, but I'd rather be a part of this one than theguidepoint - which still.. after contemplating it for a few days sounds like a publication that the Jehovah's witnesses would leave at the front door.
    The Jehovah’s Witnesses publication is “The Watchtower”, so I’m not seeing a strong correlation. Yesterday I found a pretty good list of new age type churches, I didn’t see any that really correlated to guide point. This is something that I am concerned about, per the point of not conflicting with others, so I understand the issue and concern, I’m just not sure if it is a big enough concern in this case. My bigger concern is something that would have a left or right connotation.

    We’re approaching this change in a very pragmatic manner, there is no emotional attachment to any new branding; if something better comes up before a roll-out we can go with that. At this point we at least have a baseline, and people can be prepared for Liberty Forest to go away, which, BTW, we will maintain that URL as well.

    Thank you for the input.
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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Michael View Post
    I like this line of thought. Something like a digest. Or journal. A magazinish web site of sorts.
    I like this idea. We should have many planks... A forum for discussion. A "Liberty News Aggregate" (something like a Drudge Report for Liberty-related news stories). An education section... etc etc.

    We SHOULD be so much more than simply a forum.

    I do think we should honor Dr. Paul's name, but the lead site-name should be more general as to appeal to the most people possible.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    The Jehovah’s Witnesses publication is “The Watchtower”, so I’m not seeing a strong correlation. Yesterday I found a pretty good list of new age type churches, I didn’t see any that really correlated to guide point. This is something that I am concerned about, per the point of not conflicting with others, so I understand the issue and concern, I’m just not sure if it is a big enough concern in this case. My bigger concern is something that would have a left or right connotation.

    We’re approaching this change in a very pragmatic manner, there is no emotional attachment to any new branding; if something better comes up before a roll-out we can go with that. At this point we at least have a baseline, and people can be prepared for Liberty Forest to go away, which, BTW, we will maintain that URL as well.

    Thank you for the input.
    Yeah I don't know if I like the sound of "The Guidepoint"... doesn't have much bite or appeal or even any reference to our aims. Can't we think of something more appealing than that? Just my opinion...
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by undergroundrr View Post
    In your discussion about a Foundational Knowledgebase, you mentioned building it on a wiki platform. I got the impression that would displace or at least lessen the prominence of the web forum side of things. Am I reading that right?
    That would not be the intent nor hope. The base idea with the wiki would be to collect the wisdom of the forum for very stable subject matters. In a certain way, it is designed to enhance and leverage the forum since that is where the debate and discussion on the content of the wiki will take place, vs. using the wiki discussion pages.
    The wiki certainly won’t touch the news cycle or any specific activism effort, the forum is ideal for that.


    Wikis are useful for me, but I've never been able to see them as communities. I'll dip into a wiki on, say, Frank Zappa's music to pick up information on a band member's involvement on a certain track, and then I'm gone. Maybe that's just me.
    Different people can end up with different reasons to read our knowledgebase. One main purpose will be to pick up information on a specific topic, but the design will allow to picking up other information in an easy way as well. Others may be interested to learn on a deeper level, while others could have interest to contribute to the knowledgebase development. All of this will become clearer once it starts to take shape, it’s had to take a little bit of a back seat to deal with a few other site issues first.


    When the Mises Institute shuffled off its forum (now the very sparse libertyhq.freeforums.org), it was to purify a knowledge platform so that it could proactively provide information with little opportunity for unedited feedback. Instead of a 50 or 100 people posting multiple times a day (as with rpf), mises.org has 15 or 20 people who provide a post once a week or once a month. That to me is stiffer and less resilient.
    I have no real information on why mises removed their forum, but can speculate that it was too low of a return for their effort, it generally is for any business or group with their level of funding. User content can also conflict with their core message.


    I would also point out that "Liberty Forest" didn't become a very significant brand for anybody here that I know of. Nobody seems to refer to it as such.
    It hasn’t, and you won’t find it on the web either (do a search). So it’s seen as expendable. It’s not a bad name but it hasn’t added much either, we can do better.


    I presume everybody still thinks of it as Ron Paul Forums. And I think that's because the words "Ron" and "Paul" when joined together don't really encapsulate an individual human's identity any more as much as they are shorthand for a kind of compassionate conservatism where all the stupid fascist bits have been corrected by sensible libertarian and constitutionally derived solutions.
    Interesting perspective, food for thought.


    Replacing "Liberty Forest" with "Guide Point" is neither here nor there. Replacing "Ron Paul Forums" with "Guide Point" presents a couple of problems -

    1. It will seem like a little bit of a betrayal to some.
    2. You will unnecessarily have to build public perception of a brand from the ground up, probably with no significant marketing capital, instead of just using the words "Ron Paul" to signify the same brand.
    As said, there has been no decision to this end, but changing the main URL in the future is not out of the realm of possibilities. Per point one, I’d understand that, but Ron always said it was about the message and not the person. He wants to see liberty, so the question is how do we best pick up the torch? I could certainly see a betrayal if we started to trash him on the site; we haven’t and won’t, even if he’s not perfect.

    Point two is certainly a strategical matter, and something well considered. There are many pieces needed to determine a best path; for starters, consider how many people are coming in and going out with our current branding? How many people are searching for “Ron Paul”? (I can tell you that). How many people are leaving, thinking, “OK, this campaign failed, time to move on.” So if a new brand helps here, we’re a step ahead. Another part is our outreach, and being pro-active as a site. As I mentioned previously, I put the brakes on reaching out to candidates back in 2013, this was in part due to our branding, candidates were/can be hesitant to be associated with Ron Paul due to how badly he was smeared in the media. This is one of the consequences of having a legacy.

    If there is a complete change in the URL (which remains to be seen) we will first be developing out the alternate branding first, build brand equity, and when the balance is right, we would switch. We would not just switch without some criteria and analysis. As an example, one consideration is to put the wiki on the new site and then later have the forum move over to it-- if it ever makes sense. Again, to be seen.


    It's very valuable to know there's a place I can go where people are trying their best to perpetuate the ideals that Ron Paul espoused in the 2008 & 2012 presidential elections and during his terms as congressman. … RPF is my newspaper, because I know if something happens in the world that champions or threatens my values, I can pop onto the forums and people are probably already actively commenting on it and sharing information.
    Thanks, and we certainly don’t intend to change that.


    That said, if it can't earn its keep on that basis the owners have the right and legitimate motivation to change it how they see fit.
    It’s hard to know this for sure, but the trends aren’t favorable. It’s worthy of discussion and contemplation.

    Thanks.
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  7. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    I like this idea. We should have many planks... A forum for discussion. A "Liberty News Aggregate" (something like a Drudge Report for Liberty-related news stories). An education section... etc etc.

    We SHOULD be so much more than simply a forum.
    Agreed.


    I do think we should honor Dr. Paul's name, but the lead site-name should be more general as to appeal to the most people possible.
    This will be a more pressing question for us moving forward.


    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Yeah I don't know if I like the sound of "The Guidepoint"... doesn't have much bite or appeal or even any reference to our aims. Can't we think of something more appealing than that? Just my opinion...
    The general problem is that if you go with a name that has a lot of bite or appeal for a certain group it will equally turn off another group. If you really consider our Mission, we have a message that appeals to everyone. So how do we encapsulate that? Encapsulate our message with “liberty” seems to make sense, but I don’t see it working. With such great appeal, why hasn’t Campaign for Liberty taken off? Everyone should be on board, right? I think it's time for a different approach.

    There are a lot of brand names that have no inherent appeal. Why would Dell have appeal? Or HP? Or Google? Or Adobe? Or The Blaze? Or Breitbart? What’s important is the associations which the company is able to develop. With success, the brand name becomes more than what the names is.

    Part of the problem with a political site, which is only part of our Mission, is that if you have a political sounding name within it you are at the mercy of how the media characterizes the words in your name. What may sound good today could be the next terrorist group. If we picked something too overused, it will end up being too left or right and we are turning people off at the start.

    So these are part of the reasons why I don’t like names that have a direct and specific characterization. It is easier to up start, but for long term value and sustainability, building your own brand is a very good route.

    Of course one of the biggest problems is that you not only need a good name, you need the URL to go with it. Of all of the TLDs out there, I only liked .com. A .org name is good, but we’re not an org. I like .us in some ways, but it also implies just a United States web site, which we’re not. The .com namespace has been pretty well picked over.
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  8. #66
    I'd like to set forth the idea of plagiarizing Ron Paul's slogan for a new moniker if it must be changed;


  9. #67
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    As a general FYI, I'm not going to get into a public discussion on potential URLs, and posting something will only do harm to an idea.

    If you have a serious idea PM or e-mail me, just remember the criteria in the OP. I also would exclude anything that has any sort of negative connotation such as fighting against the government or whatnot.

    Thanks.
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  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    The Jehovah’s Witnesses publication is “The Watchtower”, so I’m not seeing a strong correlation. Yesterday I found a pretty good list of new age type churches, I didn’t see any that really correlated to guide point. This is something that I am concerned about, per the point of not conflicting with others, so I understand the issue and concern, I’m just not sure if it is a big enough concern in this case. My bigger concern is something that would have a left or right connotation.

    We’re approaching this change in a very pragmatic manner, there is no emotional attachment to any new branding; if something better comes up before a roll-out we can go with that. At this point we at least have a baseline, and people can be prepared for Liberty Forest to go away, which, BTW, we will maintain that URL as well.

    Thank you for the input.
    Sorry but I had to chuckle at Opal's comment as I thought the same thing, though not re the JWs (because, as you say, their magazines are Watchtower & Awake!). What GuidePoint.com made me think of is another Christian magazine(s) publisher/group that has been around for 71 years called GuidePOSTS.org. From their "About Us" page:

    "Our Founders' Timeless Vision: Dr. Norman Vincent Peale and his wife Ruth Stafford Peale cofounded Guideposts in 1945. They envisioned an organization that would help people from all walks of life achieve their maximum personal and spiritual potential. The Peale legacy continues powerfully today in our vision for the future — to offer people products and services that inspire, encourage, and uplift..."
    https://www.guideposts.org/about-us

    So I'm not sure if the masses-in-general would ever confuse the two...(?) and/or whether it might help vs. hinder.

    I'm all for .com's vs. ALL the other TLDs. .COM is the original & perpetual ace, no doubt about it. True about slim pickings in .com's, though.

    I was looking at the thesaurus for synonyms for liberty. There were pages & pages, so I didn't look through all of the associated possibilities. But the word Independence stuck out, though looking at .com's, it's pretty much covered, such as:

    IndependencePoint (sounds like a mountain peak, I suppose; the .com is taken, but the .net is available, defeating my own argument).

    IndependenceSquare (a gathering place to meet & share knowledge; .com is taken, though .net is available).

    IndependenceSchool (sold out, .com, .net, .org).

    My favorite, since having two words begin with the same letter is always a good memory enhancer:

    IndependenceIntel.com is available ($8.99 at namesilo.com; the entire string of TLDs for that are available: .com, .net, .org, .biz, .info, .us, .pro, .club, .co).

    Ditto the longer version, IndependenceIntelligence.com, all the above TLDs are also available for this one.

    Independence has a historic, nostalgic, "Founding Fathers" ring to it (maybe only for us "old-timers"?), and the Intel part is for your database of knowledge. It also signifies "self-reliance," self-determination, etc.

    Just an idea. I confess I'm more inclined toward "niche marketing" (specifics-branding) than the "open-ended" non-specific, but I understand your point that being "too specific" will turn-off one group or another, especially those Bernie-Brainwashed youngins'.

    Lastly, this was a hot & hopping place when I first discovered it in the Fall of 2007 and it was a blast! Though RP turned out to be a heartbreaker for many. (Whatever happened to Granny with the big RP Class-A RV painted red-white-blue who traveled all over the country with her monkey?)

    Even though I haven't commented much since then, I have continued to visit here over the years knowing I could find great discussions & opinions by the RPF "old-timers" on various news topics of the day, including the most recent Rand vs. Trump vs. Cruz, etc.

    So thank you for all the chills & thrills!
    Politics 'N Proverbs
    "When the RIGHTEOUS are in authority, the people REJOICE, but when the WICKED beareth rule, the people MOURN." -Proverbs 29:2

  11. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by politicsNproverbs View Post
    Sorry but I had to chuckle at Opal's comment as I thought the same thing, though not re the JWs (because, as you say, their magazines are Watchtower & Awake!). What GuidePoint.com made me think of is another Christian magazine(s) publisher/group that has been around for 71 years called GuidePOSTS.org. From their "About Us" page:

    "Our Founders' Timeless Vision: Dr. Norman Vincent Peale and his wife Ruth Stafford Peale cofounded Guideposts in 1945. They envisioned an organization that would help people from all walks of life achieve their maximum personal and spiritual potential. The Peale legacy continues powerfully today in our vision for the future — to offer people products and services that inspire, encourage, and uplift..."
    https://www.guideposts.org/about-us

    So I'm not sure if the masses-in-general would ever confuse the two...(?) and/or whether it might help vs. hinder.
    Thanks for all of the input -- and you should post more.

    I'm well aware of the guidepost site as I did a lot of research on usage of the word "guidepost" - which was an earlier base word that was considered. It was ruled out for a variety of reasons but its association to the Christian site never come up as an issue with the advisors and experts I talked with. Guidepost is a common dictionary term with a concrete meaning and is well used in many things. So while there is a minor connection I don't see it as very strong, and I'm not seeing how they have a bad reputation that we'd want 100% distance from. Most people don't know about it.
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  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Michael View Post
    Hey, let's do a podcast.

    Just put it up in the corner some place.
    This 100x.

    This is what people want nowadays. Convenient and entertaining content. They want something they can listen to while they are busy with their career or life in general or a video to look at while lounging at home in front of the tv/computer. Some type of video podcast that keeps us in the loop on current events from a liberty minded perspective.

    We already have the Ron Paul Channel and excellent podcasts like the one Tom Woods provides, but there is still no comprehensive video podcast that incorporates both techniques that would appeal to an average citizen. The Young Turks appeals to progressive lefties, Glenn Beck appeals to tea party conservatives, yet there is still nothing like either of those for true libertarians. We have a mish mash of that content among many different podcasts, it just needs to get consolidated and easily accessible via Youtube.

    Easier said than done, I know. Start small, see where it goes, work on it, build it up.

    Still, I can't think of a better way to spread the message using popular modern forms of media and technology. I had high hopes that Truth In Media, Ben Swann's project was going to become something like this, it was arguably well funded, using kickstarter cash, but it ended up being just a basic news site, with a greater emphasis on articles, rather than videos and Ben is now working with another local news station. Ah well.

    Just my two cents.

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Yeah I don't know if I like the sound of "The Guidepoint"... doesn't have much bite or appeal or even any reference to our aims. Can't we think of something more appealing than that? Just my opinion...
    I'D HAVE GONE WITH 'BLACK LIVES MATTER'

    ANYONE WHO WON'T CLICK ON THAT IS HOPELESS ANYWAY

  14. #72
    BUTSRSLY,

    THE FIRST QUESTION IS

    IS IT GOOD FOR PEOPLE TO DO FORUMING

    THE NEXT QUESTION IS

    WHERE SHOULD I LOCATE MY FREE HUGS CONVENTION



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  16. #73
    My question in all this is what will you contrive that stands some chance to have an actual, palpable effect?

    Look at Black Lives Matter. Someone vomited forth this idiot hashtag from their shriveled intellect and it caught. Now, countless dullards of all manner of denominations are on board this derailed freight train to hell, marching, whining, threatening, demanding, twittering, mastur... oh never mind.

    The point is that all high-minded philosophizing aside, a simple, clear thing is what is needed. Something that will cause people to act. Something that will catch people's imaginations. This is a tall order because you do not have stupidity on your side, which makes things tons easier in a culture now and apparently hopelessly addicted to idiocy of almost any form.

    Is there anything sane, rational, and decent that would bring people together to make themselves heard and felt to the end of furthering the cause of human freedom?

    That is the question you need to answer.
    Last edited by osan; 04-27-2016 at 08:08 PM.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    My question in all this is what will you contrive that stands some chance to have an actual, palpable effect?

    Look at Black Lives Matter. Someone vomited forth this idiot hashtag forth from their shriveled intellect and it caught. Now, countless idiots of all manner of denominations are on board this derailed freight train to hell, marching, whining, threatening, demanding, twittering, mastur... oh never mind.

    The point is that all high-minded philosophizing aside, a simple, clear thing is what is needed. Something that will cause people to act. Something that will catch people's imaginations. This is a tall order because you do not have stupidity on your side, which makes things tons easier in a culture now and apparently hopelessly addicted to idiocy of almost any form.

    Is there anything sane, rational, and decent that would bring people together to make themselves heard and felt to the end of furthering the cause of human freedom?

    That is the question you need to answer.
    The absolute first thing that needs to happen is for people to come back together here. Or just call it quits and separate if they feel it isn't worth it anymore. No sense in hanging around just to be a Debbie Downer.There is a great deal of division. Some natural and some manufactured. This division is a product of politics. What needs to happen (and this is just me talking) is to return to things that are meaningful. I'm not offering the notion that things that have been discussed and done here over the last couple of years aren't meaningful. I'm just saying that we are at a crossroads where it is likely best to get back to grassroots philosophy. That in itself is of great importance. An "effect" in itself.

    I'll tell you something, osan. I read most of your postings. I don't disagree with you too often. But they're too damn wordy. So is Bryan. In fact, I'm still wading through the fundamental knowledgebase stuff. Between the two of you in the same thread yuns give me a headache sometimes. I used to be like that myself. It became more of a barrier in discussion with others for the simple fact that they just didn't understand what I was talking about. Or where I was headed. Or why. And people told me this. So, then, I had to work back to the basics in order to be able to talk with them on their level. And it worked. Prior to that, I'd more likely have just said to heck with it and not bother wasting my time. Which I did. Often. This is/was a mistake. We need to get back to normal, basic stuff that everyone understands. Most here, I accept, do and are able to comprehend elevated language and concepts. But not in the real world, man. They just don't. And I say this respectfully. I mean no ill will in saying this. Best to take a good look in the mirror (me included) and try to figure out what we can do better. That's what has to happen first.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-27-2016 at 01:26 PM.

  18. #75
    Great idea! I hope it works out!

    However, I personally think the time for Liberty is past and we as a nation are far beyond repair. It was a good run guys but I think our time should now be spent trying to survive what's to come.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Unknownuser View Post
    Great idea! I hope it works out!

    However, I personally think the time for Liberty is past and we as a nation are far beyond repair. It was a good run guys but I think our time should now be spent trying to survive what's to come.
    Okay. Later. Check in once in a while and let us know how things are going for you.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-27-2016 at 12:35 PM.

  20. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    My question in all this is what will you contrive that stands some chance to have an actual, palpable effect?

    Look at Black Lives Matter. Someone vomited forth this idiot hashtag forth from their shriveled intellect and it caught. Now, countless idiots of all manner of denominations are on board this derailed freight train to hell, marching, whining, threatening, demanding, twittering, mastur... oh never mind.

    The point is that all high-minded philosophizing aside, a simple, clear thing is what is needed. Something that will cause people to act. Something that will catch people's imaginations. This is a tall order because you do not have stupidity on your side, which makes things tons easier in a culture now and apparently hopelessly addicted to idiocy of almost any form.

    Is there anything sane, rational, and decent that would bring people together to make themselves heard and felt to the end of furthering the cause of human freedom?

    That is the question you need to answer.
    An excellent question, which I will examine within framework of the Liberty Blueprint that I put forward.

    You are correct that the high-minded philosophizing won’t get the job done, but it does serve as a foundation for all other things to come from it. The Foundational Knowledgebase, Part #1 of the Liberty Blueprint [1. Educational guide points on the definition of liberty.], will have two level of explanation, one is a short form that is easy to read and gives simple explanations of the material. The long form will get into the cutting edge of liberty thought and be geared for the die-hard high-minded philosophizing type. The simple form however is still not a tool to win people over to liberty beyond being used as an educational point for a single issue. The Foundational Knowledgebase can serve as an education system for certain analytical learning styles but the point stands, the high-minded philosophizing won’t get the job done.

    To seize the moment or capture an audience, we do need as you say, something that will catch peoples imagination. This is Part #5 of the Liberty Blueprint [5. a) Outreach to connect our educational programs to new people. b) Execution of the programs], where Part a) is the development of the marketing campaign material and Part b) is the executing of the campaign. Exactly what that is, how it will look like is something that no one person can define. This is its own process and can change daily based on the news cycle. Ideally the site and the liberty movement can do better to coordinate with this.

    What we have found however, is that this is not enough. In the “state of the movement” thread @presence pointed out (to which I’d agree) that a lot of the liberty movement was lost since they did not get entrenched into the liberty mindset, some were single issue voters, some just caught on to the Ron Paul campaign. This is why Part #4 of the Liberty Blueprint is important [4. Educational programs to teach what liberty is, why it’s important and how to defend it.] Once we do capture peoples imagination, then what? We can’t just send them off to the Foundational Knowledgebase and say “read all of this” – no, we need structured and well thought out educational material and pathways that will drive people to change their viewpoints on a fundamental level.

    One key however is that all of the material within Part #4 and Part #5 of the Liberty Blueprint has to be philosophically sound within the Foundational Knowledgebase, Part #1. Without this, the message gets confused and obfuscated; people in our own ranks won’t even be aligned.

    This also assures we have real substance to our Mission and campaigns. With lots of other movements, if you look under the hoods, they aren’t based on much substance; we are, we just have to communicate that.

    So in this way there are three very separate layers of effort and material: captivate, educate and foundation. The captivate layer is very dynamic and creative. The educate layer is stable but adapts to the times, technology and learning styles. The foundation layer is left for the high-minded philosophizing and should hit a very stable state. Without all three, we get nowhere, or gains are limited. This can be seen within the Ron Paul 2008/2012 campaigns; the campaigns were part of the outreach (part #5), but we lacked in the other areas.

    Another important part of #5 is that once we have someone’s attention and they are in our camp, we need a way to make sure that people progress within the education material. This can be done with having mentors, structured programs, progress tracking and monitoring and the like. This also has to be done in a palpable manner, but the point is, once someone is done with an education program the success rate that they are really onboard the movement is much higher. Putting together a successful educational system is also its own challenge. Of course there is a lot of education material out there within Part #4, it wouldn’t make sense to redevelop that, but it’s not well structured, vetted or packaged up within a system that is easy to use.

    So in a nutshell, we need lots of pieces to come together. I can’t do it all, but want to structure the site to be a hub to get this done for the people who actually want to make a difference. This is where the Mission Advancement Framework (MAF) comes in, which really has a few goals:

    -- Make it desirable for people to want to contribute.

    -- Plan before action is taken, including setting goals, expectations and making sure efforts play a proper role within the big picture.

    -- Make it easy for people to contribute by having connecting workflows between different functional needs. In this way, it’s easy to do one small thing and have that effort benefit the whole; it can be similar to an assembly line, but not exactly either.

    -- Limit failure points within groups.


    If someone has a better plan, great, let’s discuss it. If someone can develop a better Liberty Blueprint, I’ll be willing to debate that too.

    Rather than seeing thing as being over-thought, as some here have suggested, I think the movement has done the exact opposite, these issues have been completely under-thought. We need a holistic master plan; I submit the Liberty Blueprint as being it.
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  21. #78
    Great thread Bryan. This almost makes me feel like I want to be back and involved... I know the liberty movement is very right leaning, I also know it was not always the case. I will always claim that you need liberty minded liberals to bring perspective and passion.

    Everyone has their input about what...caused some of all this... I don't know how it started, but seeing things written on this board like "I think Left wing political positions of any kind should be banned" was a nice, firm, and 'point taken' sorta ending for me.

    I'm very effective at getting Bernie Supporters to our way of thinking.. so my activism has been mostly focused there.

    Society will never be ruled by one reality.

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


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  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    Great thread Bryan. This almost makes me feel like I want to be back and involved... I know the liberty movement is very right leaning, I also know it was not always the case. I will always claim that you need liberty minded liberals to bring perspective and passion.

    Everyone has their input about what...caused some of all this... I don't know how it started, but seeing things written on this board like "I think Left wing political positions of any kind should be banned" was a nice, firm, and 'point taken' sorta ending for me.

    I'm very effective at getting Bernie Supporters to our way of thinking.. so my activism has been mostly focused there.

    Society will never be ruled by one reality.

    This is one of the common problems I see these days. People throwing these Bernie supporters to the sideline. We know that their socialist beliefs are opposite to our free market individualistic philosophy, but many of us do share one crucial element. That is hate for the status quo. Just look at how mad Bernie supporters are at the current electoral government system. We need to find an effective way to tell these people that yes, the government is corrupt, but what you want to replace it with is not a realistic and free solution.

    I personally find it hard to appeal to these people as they love entitlement rather then independence. I just know there must be a way.

  23. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by younglibertarian View Post
    This is one of the common problems I see these days. People throwing these Bernie supporters to the sideline. We know that their socialist beliefs are opposite to our free market individualistic philosophy, but many of us do share one crucial element. That is hate for the status quo. Just look at how mad Bernie supporters are at the current electoral government system. We need to find an effective way to tell these people that yes, the government is corrupt, but what you want to replace it with is not a realistic and free solution.

    I personally find it hard to appeal to these people as they love entitlement rather then independence. I just know there must be a way.
    Among other things, they are rip$#@!. I see more anger and motivation in this group than the post Boston 2007 liberty movement. We need each other, it just means compromising on things, like, I don't know, Theocracy language, banning people from speaking language (both sides FFS?!)... the usual suspects.

    "The essence of the Liberal outlook lies not in what opinions are held, but in how they are held: instead of being held dogmatically, they are held tentatively, and with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment."

    -Bertrand Russell


    I received positive rep for extreme sarcasm from a person who thought I was serious ... please look up Poe's Law



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    I'm very effective at getting Bernie Supporters to our way of thinking.. so my activism has been mostly focused there.
    Hm. Me, too. It's interesting that you bring that up. But even before Bernie came along. I've found that a lot of young people accept the label of "liberal" or "socialist"without really understanding what it means. And so many of them really do like Ron Paul particularly, I've found. Of course, that's without even getting into discussion on a deeper level. Seems like you have to kind of help them to better understand what it is that they already know and want but in a way that leads them to accept that they've done so on their own. Maybe you know what I mean by that. Is weird, really. Tough to explain.

    Democracy is an interesing term that a lot of them just don't understand yet have been kind of trained to use and forward onto others. Is simple coercion but so many young people (and even older folks, I suppose) kind of get sucked into becoming robots. Of course, most don't understand coercion either. Although they have been trained to participate in it. So, then, that's a small task to help them figure out on their own, too.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-27-2016 at 04:27 PM.

  26. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Michael View Post
    I'll tell you something, osan. I read most of your postings. I don't disagree with you too often. But they're too damn wordy. So is Bryan. In fact, I'm still wading through the fundamental knowledgebase stuff. Between the two of you in the same thread yuns give me a headache sometimes.
    As I've said, much of the knowledgebase material is just setting up the framework, it's not the actual content (and a bit dry). More content is coming. Otherwise, yes, when osan and I get after it, it's not going to be easy reading.

    To your other points, you're right that we need to talk a language that others understand, and some people are really good at that. For others, they fit in better with the deep philosophy material. It's good to be able to do both.
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  27. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unknownuser View Post
    Great idea! I hope it works out!

    However, I personally think the time for Liberty is past and we as a nation are far beyond repair. It was a good run guys but I think our time should now be spent trying to survive what's to come.
    One can argue that liberty has past us as nation, but the real question is, has it past your heart? If it has not, the only question is how you will fight. If you think it has past us as a nation and it is beyond repair, spread liberty outside of politics, don't bother with elections and such. Such an effort will always been necessary, and when done right, will always bear fruit.

    Otherwise, per my OP, I do agree that it's good to plan for hard time that may come to pass. Let's hope they don't, but there can still be room to do more.
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  28. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kade View Post
    Great thread Bryan. This almost makes me feel like I want to be back and involved...
    Thanks, great to hear from you.... so what will it take to remove that "almost"?

    I know the liberty movement is very right leaning, I also know it was not always the case. I will always claim that you need liberty minded liberals to bring perspective and passion.
    Agreed, we do need liberty minded liberals. In a certain sense, we learn some to the right, but we also lean in other ways too.


    Everyone has their input about what...caused some of all this... I don't know how it started, but seeing things written on this board like "I think Left wing political positions of any kind should be banned" was a nice, firm, and 'point taken' sorta ending for me.
    I'm not aware of that ever being a site policy, it all depends on the situation and what someone brings to the table.

    I'm very effective at getting Bernie Supporters to our way of thinking.. so my activism has been mostly focused there.

    Society will never be ruled by one reality.
    Nice, agreed with the point. Could you start a new thread and talk about your experiences with Bernie supporters? What motivates them? How educated are they? Etc, etc, etc...

    Thanks!
    This site has a specific purpose defined in our Mission Statement.

    Members must read and follow our Community Guidelines.

    I strive to respond to all queries; please excuse late and out-of-sequence responses.

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    As I've said, much of the knowledgebase material is just setting up the framework, it's not the actual content (and a bit dry). More content is coming. Otherwise, yes, when osan and I get after it, it's not going to be easy reading.

    To your other points, you're right that we need to talk a language that others understand, and some people are really good at that. For others, they fit in better with the deep philosophy material. It's good to be able to do both.
    Yeah, I know. On both points. But I'm glad that you didn't take that the wrong way. As I'd mentioned, my thought there wasn't meant to be critical of anyone. I agree that it's good to be of the means to do both depending on the circumstance. But, again, this is a forum. Which means that there is a lot of debate. Disagreement. Intellectual contests more often than not these days. And that's where it tends to get freaking Einsteinian. You know? No way that isn't intimidating to new people trying to blend in and whatnot. Of course, the platform itself and the vision you've introduced are two different beasts. I get that. My thoughts on it were geared more toward the former, I suppose.

  30. #86
    Maybe gear up for Adam Kokesh?



  31. #87
    Heh. I saw that Adam was logged in here a few days ago. Folks gave him the business last time he was active here if I recall correctly.

    Anyway. Maybe better to think about what we can do for and among ourselves for the moment instead of looking to follow others' plan/vision/platforms that may exist and function outside of our little circles. If Adam wants to join in, then, he knows where we are.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 04-27-2016 at 07:54 PM.

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    An excellent question, which I will examine within framework of the Liberty Blueprint that I put forward.

    You are correct that the high-minded philosophizing won’t get the job done, but it does serve as a foundation for all other things to come from it. The Foundational Knowledgebase, Part #1 of the Liberty Blueprint [1. Educational guide points on the definition of liberty.], will have two level of explanation, one is a short form that is easy to read and gives simple explanations of the material. The long form will get into the cutting edge of liberty thought and be geared for the die-hard high-minded philosophizing type. The simple form however is still not a tool to win people over to liberty beyond being used as an educational point for a single issue. The Foundational Knowledgebase can serve as an education system for certain analytical learning styles but the point stands, the high-minded philosophizing won’t get the job done.

    To seize the moment or capture an audience, we do need as you say, something that will catch peoples imagination. This is Part #5 of the Liberty Blueprint [5. a) Outreach to connect our educational programs to new people. b) Execution of the programs], where Part a) is the development of the marketing campaign material and Part b) is the executing of the campaign. Exactly what that is, how it will look like is something that no one person can define. This is its own process and can change daily based on the news cycle. Ideally the site and the liberty movement can do better to coordinate with this.

    What we have found however, is that this is not enough. In the “state of the movement” thread @presence pointed out (to which I’d agree) that a lot of the liberty movement was lost since they did not get entrenched into the liberty mindset, some were single issue voters, some just caught on to the Ron Paul campaign. This is why Part #4 of the Liberty Blueprint is important [4. Educational programs to teach what liberty is, why it’s important and how to defend it.] Once we do capture peoples imagination, then what? We can’t just send them off to the Foundational Knowledgebase and say “read all of this” – no, we need structured and well thought out educational material and pathways that will drive people to change their viewpoints on a fundamental level.

    One key however is that all of the material within Part #4 and Part #5 of the Liberty Blueprint has to be philosophically sound within the Foundational Knowledgebase, Part #1. Without this, the message gets confused and obfuscated; people in our own ranks won’t even be aligned.

    This also assures we have real substance to our Mission and campaigns. With lots of other movements, if you look under the hoods, they aren’t based on much substance; we are, we just have to communicate that.

    So in this way there are three very separate layers of effort and material: captivate, educate and foundation. The captivate layer is very dynamic and creative. The educate layer is stable but adapts to the times, technology and learning styles. The foundation layer is left for the high-minded philosophizing and should hit a very stable state. Without all three, we get nowhere, or gains are limited. This can be seen within the Ron Paul 2008/2012 campaigns; the campaigns were part of the outreach (part #5), but we lacked in the other areas.

    Another important part of #5 is that once we have someone’s attention and they are in our camp, we need a way to make sure that people progress within the education material. This can be done with having mentors, structured programs, progress tracking and monitoring and the like. This also has to be done in a palpable manner, but the point is, once someone is done with an education program the success rate that they are really onboard the movement is much higher. Putting together a successful educational system is also its own challenge. Of course there is a lot of education material out there within Part #4, it wouldn’t make sense to redevelop that, but it’s not well structured, vetted or packaged up within a system that is easy to use.

    So in a nutshell, we need lots of pieces to come together. I can’t do it all, but want to structure the site to be a hub to get this done for the people who actually want to make a difference. This is where the Mission Advancement Framework (MAF) comes in, which really has a few goals:

    -- Make it desirable for people to want to contribute.

    -- Plan before action is taken, including setting goals, expectations and making sure efforts play a proper role within the big picture.

    -- Make it easy for people to contribute by having connecting workflows between different functional needs. In this way, it’s easy to do one small thing and have that effort benefit the whole; it can be similar to an assembly line, but not exactly either.

    -- Limit failure points within groups.


    If someone has a better plan, great, let’s discuss it. If someone can develop a better Liberty Blueprint, I’ll be willing to debate that too.

    Rather than seeing thing as being over-thought, as some here have suggested, I think the movement has done the exact opposite, these issues have been completely under-thought. We need a holistic master plan; I submit the Liberty Blueprint as being it.
    OK, that's pretty good, but I must reiterate a point - not to be downer, but to be certain we are all aware of that against which we seek to move: a mindset that wants wants wants without having to work. Why do so many people want to have Bernie Sanders' babies? Because he is telling them what they want to hear. They want it all to happen on someone else's back so they can be there to reap the benefits. We are talking about a nation dangerously infested with lazy, avaricious people who have no knowledge of the basics of proper human relations, no interest in such knowledge when it conflicts with their wants or requires work to obtain, and have no moral compunction so see their desires fulfilled through the application of force against those who have that which they desire to obtain without work.

    I believe the truth of this is far worse than most people realize, even in these forums. We are talking about a huge, brutishly inarticulate mob driven by unvarnished avarice, unabashed lassitude, and unwavering hatred of anything that calls them to account for themselves. Such people would watch you killed through the agency of their paid tax goons and say you deserved it. Why? Because the superior man is, in their eyes, intolerable as he is the constant sore reminder of the average man's low character, inferior attitude, and his resultant lack of ability for anything worthy of valid praise. The superior man constantly spotlights the reasons the inferior man should loathe himself. That reminder sears his weak and over-inflated buffoon's ego, prompting him to seek and accept as valid the flimsiest pretexts upon which their nemeses are sent to burn in the flesh through the agency of third party hands.

    How does one compete with the likes of a Sanders or a Clinton who preach free unicorn-poo for everyone while promising death to the wealthy? They are reinforcing the base instincts that draw them inexorably in the direction of "free $#@!", playing upon envy, while redirecting and projecting what should be shame for one's own miserable inadequacies and translating it into blind, red-raging hatred. The question of competition is the one that needs to be answered - not how to compete, initially, but rather whether you can. I am no longer certain it is possible. Be that the case, any attempts to win such people to your cause is likely to prove fruitless, leaving you to ask whether there are enough "superior" men remaining such that one could realistically make an attempt to keep this vessel we call "America" afloat.

    The task is enormously difficult because you have damned near everything against you, including the majority who would see you burned alive as soon as tell you to screw off.

    Keep that in mind.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.



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  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Michael View Post
    Heh. I saw that Adam was logged in here a few days ago. Folks gave him the business last time he was active here if I recall correctly.

    Anyway. Maybe better to think about what we can do for and among ourselves for the moment instead of looking to follow others' plan/vision/platforms that may exist and function outside of our little circles. If Adam wants to join in, then, he knows where we are.
    Get him back here.

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Michael View Post
    I'll tell you something, osan. I read most of your postings. I don't disagree with you too often. But they're too damn wordy.
    I see how this is a problem for some - many even - but consider what it is many of us are attempting to do here. We are trying to find a path toward the reestablishment of human freedom on a planet that has become a huge prison. The enormity of this task, were it realized in its fullness, would likely drive people into their living rooms to break out the beer and cocaine and just say "$#@! it".

    This regression to freedom, which was man's original natural state, is so radical that we cannot hope to accomplish it in any meaningful way without first establishing and understanding the philosophical basis for such a quantum shift in the way people live. We are here essentially reinventing that basis, and doing so (at least in my case) with the understanding that words matter and are devilishly tricky. In order to assemble a clear, complete, and correct philosophical "platform" upon which to base one's material efforts, precision becomes paramount and that usually requires a lot of words in order that all bases are covered sufficiently that those who play word games are put before the tallest and most unscalable barriers imaginable. Without precision in every detail covering the basic structural elements of a philosophy for freedom, especially in a world of carpet-bagger filth, the door is left ajar for those very people to ply their deceit. Just look at the hopelessly weak Constitution. It's very structure all but guaranteed the outcome to which we have been treated. It may be "small and elegant", but it is also hopelessly vague in critical areas such that even to this day "scholars" argue the precise meanings of this passage or that.

    Granted, there is only so much the written word can accomplish, the rest being up to us. But if we are to take up the reins we dropped so long ago, we must understand what it means to be a governor, and that means understanding well the basic philosophical underpinnings of the nation. Without that, there is far less to stop yet another generation of filthy hippies and other useful idiot stooges to come and begin sowing the seeds of doubt in the minds of strong people. We have gone so wrong in so many ways that it makes my head hurt when the torrent-vision overwhelms my waking mind with its reality.

    We do need to be "government", even if we are an anarchy... especially so. We need the attitude of a governor of ourselves, as well as that of sentinel and guardian of the rights of all men. But we also must have understanding of that which we are defending, and that requires fools such as myself get all wordy about things, such that all bases are covered and precise. I wish it were otherwise - I would have to type a whole lot less - but alas, I see no way around it, save to leave too much unspecified with insufficient clarity and detail so that evil men would be able to bend words to false meanings.

    Does that make sense? Have I been too wordy, even here? Seriously.
    Last edited by osan; 04-27-2016 at 08:37 PM.
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

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