Is It Really Possible to "Pump" heat?

[HVACTech]

The words radiation, conduction and convection are all nouns that point to verbs: radiate, conduct, and convect. "Latent" is an adjective, describing a quality of a given substance. "White Paint" is not a method of coloring houses, it is a quality of certain paints that may be used to color houses. The latency of thermokinetic energy describes the quality of the amount of potential energy that may be transformed into kinetic. A quality of high latency will create a larger thermokinetic differential, and therefore lends itself to mechanical refrigeration. The problem is you are using the word completely wrong.

first off. I thank you for elevating the level of discourse Gunny
unfortunately, the bolded text is dead wrong.

here are the google search results for "thermo kinetic energy"
https://www.google.com/webhp?tab=ww&...kinetic+energy
now that we can see that such a thing does not in fact exist.... (unless it is a hot babe burnin em off eh?)
shall we continue?

when a hot babe looks at a menu, to determine the "calories" I can assure you my friend. that "temperature" never crosses her mind or legs.
the reason is, that a "calorie" is an itty bitty joule. (cute little $#@!ers. eh?)

"The thermochemical Btu is based on the thermochemical calorie which equals 4.184 joule exactly. Note that reference is often made to the calorie when in actual fact the kilocalorie (also called Calorie, large calorie or kilogram calorie) is meant. ( 1 kilocalorie = 1000 calories)"
http://www.simetric.co.uk/sibtu.htm

so, what does this mean? it means that "heat" can and in fact is, measured in two ways.
BTU's. Joules or calories measure the quantity of heat energy.
and then we have the "concentration" of thermal energy.
kinetic thermal energy, (as you like to call it) or temperature in it's common vernacular, measured in either degrees Fahrenheit or the Celsius scale.

the difference between heat and temperature is not minor my friend.
unless of course, you compare it to the difference between anarchy and MinArchy sir.

and yes. this is in fact both the quotient and therefore the differential... that people are $#@!ing with me about around here.

should I stop flogging them sir?
or,
should I continue?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTjIPuQS8UY

[HVACTech]

That was the wrong question. Instead you should have asked him if latent heat was a method of heat transfer. He would have answered no, of course.

This is assuming that "master of applied thermodynamics" isn't just another of your code words for an HVAC Tech.

so, me borrowed @Suzanimal secret decoder ring... (the resulting friction was VERY stimulating. sir. )
when the Heat FINALLY dissipated...
THAT girl set me straight sir.

"Refrigeration is a process of moving heat from one location to another in controlled conditions. The work of heat transport is traditionally driven by mechanical work, but can also be driven by heat, magnetism, electricity, laser, or other means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigeration

near as I can tell. she NEVER "transfers" anything bub.
she creates it.

[GunnyFreedom]

Lmao! Thermal energy is kinetic. This is a big part of why fluids heat when you compress them and cool when you expand them. Latency is a measure of POTENTIAL energy not kinetic.

Boy, for a guy who is here trying to pretend he was the smartest guy in the human race, you sure do have a lot to learn.

[acptulsa]

and used the term "fluids" loosely?

It's proper to use the term fluids in physics to describe both liquids and gases. And since refrigerant exists as both in different parts of the system at any given moment, that's the only term to use without being 'loose' with it.

[HVACTech]

It's proper to use the term fluids in physics to describe both liquids and gases. And since refrigerant exists as both in different parts of the system at any given moment, that's the only term to use without being 'loose' with it.

thus, is it also proper to use the term adiabatic process? that would cover both. right or wrong?

why did you ignore that, and why are you $#@!ing with me about it?

[acptulsa]

thus, is it also proper to use the term adiabatic process? that would cover both. right or wrong?

I don't see why that wouldn't apply to a solid as well. Solids are not fluid; in physics fluids are considered anything that assumes the shape of its container. Even so, the adiabatic process could apply to a solid. It's actually possible to compress a liquid enough that it becomes solid, despite the rise in temperature.

Beyond that, I suppose the reason I didn't bring it up is because it was completely irrelevant to the thing I was saying.

why did you ignore that, and why are you $#@!ing with me about it?

If clearing up any confusion between the guy who is using engineering terms and the guy who is using physics terms is jacking with someone, then excuse me for living. I'll leave you to pontificate in peace.

[erowe1]

near as I can tell. she NEVER "transfers" anything bub.
she creates it.

"She" meaning "latent heat"? If that's what you mean then good. I'll take that. That's as close as we're going to get as an admission from you of being wrong.

[erowe1]

and used the term "fluids" loosely?

It's proper to use the term fluids in physics to describe both liquids and gases.

Wow.

Did HVAC Tech really think that including gases in the category "fluids" was using the term loosely?

And he's an expert in this stuff?

[Anti Federalist]

Wow.

Did HVAC Tech really think that including gases in the category "fluids" was using the term loosely?

And he's an expert in this stuff?

Wonder how long a compressor will last, compressing a fluid.

[HVACTech]

I don't see why that wouldn't apply to a solid as well. Solids are not fluid; in physics fluids are considered anything that assumes the shape of its container. Even so, the adiabatic process could apply to a solid. It's actually possible to compress a liquid enough that it becomes solid, despite the rise in temperature.

Beyond that, I suppose the reason I didn't bring it up is because it was completely irrelevant to the thing I was saying.



If clearing up any confusion between the guy who is using engineering terms and the guy who is using physics terms is jacking with someone, then excuse me for living. I'll leave you to pontificate in peace.

"Solids are not fluid;" hmm... let me think about that for a moment.

I am simply unable to surmount SUCH impeccable logic sir.

I shall bow my head and leave you to your musings sir.

do you think AF left me any cookies?

[HVACTech]

Wow.

Did HVAC Tech really think that including gases in the category "fluids" was using the term loosely?

And he's an expert in this stuff?

one, two.. skip a few eh?

"Thermal energy is kinetic. This is a big part of why fluids heat when you compress them and cool when you expand them. Latency is a measure of POTENTIAL energy not kinetic."

this guy cannot only compress liquids. he can expand them, and make them do tricks!
ye-ha! ride em cowboy!

except pump heat I guess. NOBODY can do that, right acptulsa?

"The answer is yes, You can compress water, or almost any material. However, it requires a great deal of pressure to accomplish a little compression. For that reason, liquids and solids are sometimes referred to as being incompressible."
http://www.physlink.com/Education/AskExperts/ae15.cfm

[erowe1]

this guy cannot only compress liquids. he can expand them, and make them do tricks!

No. He didn't say "liquids," he said "fluids," referring obviously to gases, which are fluids.

[HVACTech]

No. He didn't say "liquids," he said "fluids," referring obviously to gases, which are fluids.

you will need to discuss that with acptulsa sir.

"I don't see why that wouldn't apply to a solid as well. Solids are not fluid; in physics fluids are considered anything that assumes the shape of its container. Even so, the adiabatic process could apply to a solid. It's actually possible to compress a liquid enough that it becomes solid, despite the rise in temperature."

methinks that he is lost and wondering about that.

(just don't mention heat pumps.. those are NOT possible)

[erowe1]

you will need to discuss that with acptulsa sir.

I don't see why that wouldn't apply to a solid as well. Solids are not fluid; in physics fluids are considered anything that assumes the shape of its container. Even so, the adiabatic process could apply to a solid. It's actually possible to compress a liquid enough that it becomes solid, despite the rise in temperature.

methinks that he is lost and wondering about that.

You're doing your dance routine again. It was you who thought that calling gases fluids was using the term fluids loosely.

[Brian4Liberty]

My Jeep A/C is very good at pumping heat when outside temp exceeds about 75.

As far as compressing liquids go, I usually compress my water. Takes up less space in the pantry that way. The only downside is that it gets heavy.

[GunnyFreedom]

I have been here for over 8 years gunny. and for ALL that time. I have been known as HVACTECH. this is NOT news sir.

what prompted all this, was a very dim bulb $#@!ing with me about it. sir?
@Anti Federalist

Doesn't matter what you are known as. You quite obviously have no clue WTF you are talking about LOL!

and now. I have you. telling me this...
"This is a big part of why fluids heat when you compress them and cool when you expand them."

are you genuinely unaware of Adiabatic Expansion and Compression sir. really?

Expansion and compression that takes place without a change in the kinetic energy of a substances molecules.

are are you just $#@!ing with me?

LOL I think you are $#@!ing with yourself by pretending to be knowledgeable about things when you are on a board full of people who know you are full of $#@!.

and used the term "fluids" loosely?

I am not using fluids loosely, a "fluid" is any substance that flows, like liquids, gasses, and plasmas. The fact that a small number of fluids can be compressed or expanded without affecting the molecular kinetic energy does not change one iota of what I said. Note that I did not say "ALL fluids." You are simply looking to find fault where there is none in some misguided attempt to defend your imagined supremacy.

An adiabatic process is one that occurs without transfer of heat or matter between a thermodynamic system and its surroundings. In an adiabatic process, energy is transferred only as work.[1][2] The adiabatic process provides a rigorous conceptual basis for the theory used to expound the first law of thermodynamics, and as such it is a key concept in thermodynamics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process

I am quite versed in thermodynamics, thank you, I don't need Wikipedia to tell me things I already know. I'm not the one pretending to be learned while actually being ignorant. The fact that you have been caught way off of reality already several times in this thread, and you still keep pressing on like you think you are the god of all that is knowable, is very telling regarding your personality.

why did YOU consider me a fool and a parts changer?

When you started saying stupid things like latency is a form of heat transfer. I would still have given you the benefit of the doubt, but here you are, doubling down. So, it is what it is. You did it to yourself. I mean, you could have been a man and a scholar and actually learned something, but that's not the course you chose.

[HVACTech]

as promised.

this is a low pressure, evaporating side gauge. the entire low side absorbs heat.
this gauge is a compound gauge, what that means is that it is capable of reading both positive and negative pressures.
the reference point is atmospheric pressure. 14.7 PSI at sea level.
therefore, zero is 1 ATM. positive pressures are measured in PSI, negative pressures in IN.HG (inches of mercury)

the information that I need to measure system performance. is saturated suction temperature. (SST)
this is the actual temperature of the "freon" "boiling" inside the evaporator coils.
to determine SST I read right down the needle to the inner scale that you can see are marked in degrees Fahrenheit. (F)

this gives me the number that I will use to determine superheat. (superheat is heat gain beyond the evaporating temp or SST.)
what I use this for is to determine the amount of liquid that is escaping from my coil. low superheat is good for performance but dangerous for my compressor.

so, what we are doing is measuring the completeness of the phase change. why? because it is the phase change that moves the heat!
and that is why the machine exists in the first place!
it is, in fact. a heat transfer system.

on the high side we do the samething to measure subcooling. (cooling below the point of condensation)
AGAIN this is done to measure the phase change.

I started this thread.. in a response to this..
it's seems that this offended someone....

[HVACTech]

Doesn't matter what you are known as. You quite obviously have no clue WTF you are talking about LOL!

When you started saying stupid things like latency is a form of heat transfer. I would still have given you the benefit of the doubt, but here you are, doubling down. So, it is what it is. You did it to yourself. I mean, you could have been a man and a scholar and actually learned something, but that's not the course you chose.

so, it is NOT the phase change that moves the heat? would you please state that for the record sir?

can plasma electrically conduct AC power Gunny? can you name even one common example of plasma...
to help other people understand the world better?

[Anti Federalist]

Not offended in the least.

Just curious if some sort of ego-compensation, strictly restricted to HVACTechs, is going on.

I mean, there are more than a couple of skilled mechanics, craftsmen, autobody men, professionals of all sorts and stripes, and some very brilliant academics as well, on this board, and none seem to feel the urge to boast and crow and bull$#@! about their trade or craft or education like you do.

Freon fumes maybe?

I started this thread.. in a response to this..
it's seems that this offended someone....

[HVACTech]

No. He didn't say "liquids," he said "fluids," referring obviously to gases, which are fluids.

are we having this discussion for our own benefit sir?
if so, I did not start it for that reason.

soon, this will be my new home! (they seem to like our founders and the CONstitution. much unlike this place)

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/

see all those bold red disclaimers?
those are to stop me from telling you how to check a capacitor.
I am sure that YOU know how right? it is the sameway that you check a 9 volt battery of course!
how dumb are these people?

[HVACTech]

Not offended in the least.

Just curious if some sort of ego-compensation, strictly restricted to HVACTechs, is going on.

I mean, there are more than a couple of skilled mechanics, craftsmen, autobody men, professionals of all sorts and stripes, and some very brilliant academics as well, on this board, and none seem to feel the urge to boast and crow and bull$#@! about their trade or craft or education like you do.

Freon fumes maybe?

you are a hoot sir!
so, "Freon" is a substance?
or,
does it not exist anymore?

as fate would have it sir. I understand that, it is the specific heat of water... that drives tornadoes and hurricanes.
I did NOT discover this. it was taught to me by another man.

I never really talked about it very much, until YOU started $#@!ing with me about it.

nobody else ever had the balls to do that. that makes YOU "special" sir!

[Anti Federalist]

you are a hoot sir!
so, "Freon" is a substance?
or,
does it not exist anymore?

Headline thread from your future home:

Freon is coming back and we can proudly call it Freon again

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....it-Freon-again

[HVACTech]

Wow.

Did HVAC Tech really think that including gases in the category "fluids" was using the term loosely?

And he's an expert in this stuff?

as this thread is about heat pumps. yes. that would be a VERY loose definition.

yes, heat pumps exist. yes, they really DO pump heat. not only that, I work on them often.

I am not the one who is making a fool of myself.

[erowe1]

as this thread is about heat pumps. yes. that would be a VERY loose definition.

No. That would not be a very loose definition at all, especially when the context is heat pumps, which use gases and liquids that are commonly called fluids, a term that covers both of those states, precisely in the context of heat pumps.

I am not the one who is making a fool of myself.

You are. You just lack the critical judgment to recognize it.

[HVACTech]

Headline thread from your future home:

Freon is coming back and we can proudly call it Freon again

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....it-Freon-again

Gunny likes to use the word "coolant" why are you making fun of him sir?

I would consider that to be in poor taste. and that an apology is therefore in order sir.

[HVACTech]

No. That would not be a very loose definition at all, especially when the context is heat pumps, which use gases and liquids that are commonly called fluids, a term that covers both of those states, precisely in the context of heat pumps.

Hmmm...let me think about that for a mome... uh... NO.

to blur the distinction would be transgender babe.
given that a heat pump ONLY employs liquids and gasses to transfer heat...

or, did that point STILL fly over your head sweetie?

[erowe1]

Hmmm...let me think about that for a mome... uh... NO.

to blur the distinction would be transgender babe.
given that a heat pump ONLY employs liquids and gasses to transfer heat...

or, did that point STILL fly over your head sweetie?

To blur what distinction?

The word fluid includes both liquids and gases, just like the word child includes both boys and girls. It doesn't blur the distinction between them. And especially in the context of heat pumps, in which the refrigerant changes between liquid and gaseous forms, the word fluid is entirely appropriate.

You disagree. That's fine. You can be wrong.

[Anti Federalist]

Gunny likes to use the word "coolant" why are you making fun of him sir?

I would consider that to be in poor taste. and that an apology is therefore in order sir.

You asked:

you are a hoot sir!
so, "Freon" is a substance?
or,
does it not exist anymore?

So I answered it:

Yes, it is a substance and,

Yes, it does exist.

Your own comrades at your suggested website showed that.

[HVACTech]

this question popped onto my radar the other day.. and it would appear.. that even people who purport to know about such things...
can't even look it up!! WTF?

WHY would this be? is there a reason? I am willing to explain it. I will simplify it as much as is possible. (artistic license)
once the 4TH method of heat transfer is understood.. I promise.. you will never look up into the sky, and see a "cloud" the same!

this technology is slightly older than the transistor, but not by much. today, very few are aware that there was no frozen food section at the grocery, until 1955. coolers were rare and food storage was a problem.

this problem was so severe, that Albert Einstein himself. invented one in order to solve the problem of food storage. (it failed)

the short answer is this. yes. it is in fact possible to "pump" heat. in fact, mother nature does it all the time! YOU even have this system built into your own body!

Latent heat transfer is how.
it is the phase change that moves the heat folks. (liquid to gas, and then gas to liquid. closed loop)



I am a commercial cooling specialist. and do not consider this to be personal information.

Dude! WTF why have you not learned that this subject upsets the people?

you know to expect the people to be upset when you show up on a jobsite right?
why are you pretending like you have never performed service for a bunch of hot hairdressers?
did THEY ask HOW the heat is transferred?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdXjm8pZMws

[Suzanimal]

so, me borrowed @Suzanimal secret decoder ring... (the resulting friction was VERY stimulating. sir. )
when the Heat FINALLY dissipated...
THAT girl set me straight sir.

"Refrigeration is a process of moving heat from one location to another in controlled conditions. The work of heat transport is traditionally driven by mechanical work, but can also be driven by heat, magnetism, electricity, laser, or other means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigeration

near as I can tell. she NEVER "transfers" anything bub.
she creates it.

Where did you find my decoder ring? I lost it years ago. Did I drop it by a heat pump or something?